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Ethnocentric toxicity

SaintJaneDoe
in Faith Issues

Ethnocentric
toxicity



The
Coptic diaspora in Australia & Ireland. As I am Irish first let
me ask an indigenous Copt residing in Eire this:


Do
you know our Irish history?


Do
you understand our teanga/language and its history?


Have
you spent considerable time understanding our Irish martyrs both
secular and religious in the struggle?


Do
you know some of our special songs – both religious and secular?


Do
you know/understand the lay of our land – its meanings, markers,
symbols?






Apply
the same to Copts living in Australia regarding the indigenous people
(Aboriginal Australia)






If
as a Copt residing in either of these countries your answer is no


then


WHY
DO YOU EXPECT US TO REVERE YOUR ETHNO CENTRICITY


&


TOLERATE
YOUR biased ethnocentric APPROACH TO NON EGYPTIAN CHRISTIANS who
believe in Iosa Criost who attend your church?

It is worthy of mention no indigenous Australian is a member of the Coptic Church in Australia.... no prizes for knowing why...


Why
do you inisst on speaking in the Arabic (the conquerer language)
rather than the other language of oppression for so many (English)
but at least with English language we of all different tribes can all
communicate?








*
I have spent hours and hours reading Egyptian history and learning
about Coptic language etc I dont know now why I bothered because all
it does is act as a reinforcer to your belief you are superior to
other cultures. Rather than engaging in shared cultural differences
Copts in my experience use it as a weapon to heighten their belief
their culture is superior over anyone elses. Tis unbeievable given
they r living on another tribes land.






The
Muslim criitque of Copts (pls dont deflect with stories of Christian
martyrs & oppression because all cultures have these) holds some
validity in certain facets. It is actually shameful. I have also
experienced a Copt woman show utter verbal disregard for Muslims and
dismiss their lives as though they were worthless.






I
am actually so disgusted now and want the Coptic church out of
Ireland if they are going to continue with this entrenched regressive
behaviour. O and if the moderator who threatened me with a ban wants
to ban me go right ahead as I have already told you. If you are
unwilling to address critique you are no better than the Vatican.


(p


Am
up to reading this now:






Copts
in Context: Negotiating Identity, Tradition, and Modernity






Nelly
van Doorn-Harder - 2017 - ‎Religion


Comments

  • PiOnkh
    edited February 2019

    The Coptic diaspora in Australia & Ireland. As I am Irish first let
    me ask an indigenous Copt residing in Eire this:

    Do you know our Irish/ Australian history? Of course!!!

    Do you understand our teanga/language and its history? Yes!

    Have you spent considerable time understanding our Irish martyrs both
    secular and religious in the struggle? There was no Christianity in Australia prior to colonisation. The idea of martyrs and saints are not present in Aboriginal beliefs.

    Do you know some of our special songs – both religious and secular? I have heard them many times.

    Do you know/understand the lay of our land – its meanings, markers,
    symbols? Yes! Not all the meanings obviously but i have some idea.

    "It is worthy of mention no indigenous Australian is a member of the Coptic Church in Australia.... no prizes for knowing why..." My parish works closely with Aboriginal people in my community. I have not seen an indigenous Australian as a member of any church (Catholic, Anglican etc). There may well be some, however, it isn't the norm which means you cannot blame the alleged " Ethnocentric Toxicity". Have you ever lived in Australia??


  • SaintJaneDoe
    I live in Australia thanks for replying 
    Re Aboriginal martyrs - there are many in their resistance struggle. They r honoured remembered Aboriginal way Australia is made up of many indigenous nations. Australia Day is considered an abomination and the grief is real.The Coptic church does nothing to support Aboriginal Australia Be honest pls.  As with Irish the past is always in the present - our ppl are with us. the words saints can be related other ways to ancestors acknowledging See song for more insight (this song is deep and a privilege for us they shared it with the world) - he is singing of his people murdered in custody, suicides and so talking past into present but you hear the past the honoured people are always in present. I hear a voice of my Fathers calling me...



    Martyrs - Aboriginal Australia
    Professor gary foleys website - a revered and loved Aboriginal activist 



    Aboriginal authentic indigenous church & ministry  Scarred Tree Ministries Sydney Aboriginal Pastor is Ray Minniecon and his wife Sharon & daughter Larissa. Its in Glebe Sydney

    There are quite a few Catholic Aboriginal - La perouse area Sydney not so sure about other parts of Aus but being an Irish ex RC I am well aware Catholicism is a colonizer religion. Ray is ordained in Anglican religion and I have met thru Ray & Sharon some Aboriginal ministers of proddy type churches years ago.
     
    PS it is not alleged ethnocentric copts tis a reality and many copts know it be a problem Make ur mind up - are ye Christians of all tribes and equal or do you have to salute Egyptian Christians and their culture as god as well.
  • SaintJaneDoe
    Re the PS part - not well written/clear as am multi tasking here. What I am trying to shout loudly is that Egyptian culture is no more superior than any other culture in the world. The Coptic Church needs to decide whether it is a cultural centre or a church of believers that acknowledges all tribes and cultures as equal and precious. thx.
  • SaintJaneDoe
    And last bit not least There is strong ties way we see freedom/spirituality between Aboriginal & Irish eyes/spirits... A generation remembers Irish martyrs utilising our native law Brehon Law fast to the death for freedom from oppression. There is no differentiation between saints saved worthy because all are martyrs who gave their lives. The word Brehon derives from root word - breathe breath of life... there ya go... bet Egyptians living in aus & eire didn't know any of this but we would share it with ya's in realville if u could just stop pounding us with your cultural superiority number Tuigim?

  • George27George27

    While I do recognize there is an issue in the Orthodox Churches with ethnocentrism. It so happens that all of our churches have some sort of ethnic identity. Many of our parishioners often put too much value in the ethnic identity of the group. I'll avoid speculation on why we are prone to doing that since it will only be speculation. What matters more here is that at some level we know and all agree that the Kingdom of Heaven that we ultimately hope to be a part of is much bigger and infinitely longer lasting than any human ethnic identity.

    The tricky part is how we exist and function as Orthodox. our M.O. is to change absolutely nothing. This includes the language that we received our traditions in. As it pertains to the Coptic Church, the language of the church is Coptic, and over the long course of history and in the formation and maturity of the church Greek and Arabic material grafted its way into the liturgy. These languages did not become part of the church on a whim. It took many theologians who spoke Arabic, writing and teaching the faith in Arabic for Arabic to become official. The writings and teachings of these theologians were then passed on and taught and made into hymns in Arabic.

    This is not out of any language being "conqueror" or being "conquered". In the U.S., the Coptic Liturgy is in the above three languages by tradition and in English to reach out to the local congregation. I think English may eventually work it's way into the tradition of the Coptic Church, but I also think it will take hundreds of years. 

    Regarding the local aboriginal people, that is also tricky. If you mean that the people of the church should be courteous and welcoming to the local aboriginal people, I agree. If you mean that the Church should pick up local traditions, I do not agree. We should be respectful and loving, but, like I said before, we don't change our traditions.
  • SaintJaneDoe
    @PiOnkh For you re the Scottish who are our brothers & descended from Dalraida Irish KIngship. Stuff that copts don't know & many wouldn't give a toss maybe as we r not Egyptian lol however since u innerstand some of my own culture....Scota, the Egyptian princess and daughter of a pharaoh who fled from Egypt with her husband Gaythelos & large following of people and settling in Scotland. They were forced to leave and landed in Ireland, where they formed the Scotti, and their kings became the high kings of Ireland. (Dal Raida) In later centuries, they returned to Scotland, defeating the Picts, and giving Scotland its name. Scotti Scotland NB the grave of Scotia is in Tralee Co. Kerry Ireland
    Christian Martyrs Gaelic  Hymns The Gaelic language comes from our Irish language Irish and Scots are GAELS. I cannae listen to this music often Makes me cry really cry Holy Spirit on it Naomh/HOLY The singing mimics the rise and fall of the ocean & is sean nos in essence meaning our old ways of singing. 

  • SaintJaneDoe
    edited February 2019
    @ George27
    'Regarding the local aboriginal people, that is also tricky. If you mean that the people of the church should be courteous and welcoming to the local aboriginal people I agree. '
    Frankly George27 Copts should be ashamed of their bigotry. You have done nothing nought zero to show love to the people of the land nor recognition of Aboriginal Australia. Yet you built your churches on their stolen land and live well/prosper yet Aboriginal Australia suffers so profoundly in every sense. You don't even attempt to understand the culture and peoples. 
    Re picking up traditions of Aboriginal Australia - not sure what u mean? Are you scared you will end up playing a didge or dancing their trad dances of different clans? Sorta more mad bigotry spewing forth from a copt yet in a unconscious way - it is interesting yet horrific. 
    Do u really need a christian irish woman to tell you this. Where is your heart at... 
    I understand what u saying re language and yes don't lose the Coptic. But that is not about ethnocentrism. 
    I don't really care anymore and have lost enormous amount of respect for the Coptic church it has dwindled to almost nothing. I will be checking what ur ppl r doing to my people in Ireland because if u think u can come on our land and treat indig ppl like this u got another thought coming bro

  • George27George27

    I sincerely would like to understand what bigotry you are referring to. If the Orthodox Church in Australia is having a problem, I would like to pray for the Church to stop its wrongdoing, for the indigeneous people to not be discouraged from Christianity, and for the current local government to do the right thing.

    I am not personally close to this issue, but I do care, not only about what is happening in Australia, but for how you feel about the issue. I'm not Coptic and I don't live in Australia. I'm Greek Orthodox and I live in the US. I'm on this forum because I hope that the EO and OO churches can return to communion one day or at least keep a good friendship.

    My admiration for the indigineous people of Australia is only limited by my knowlege of them. When I have an opportunity to learn a bit more I admire them a bit more. It's funny that you mention the digeridoo, because I actually have one. I'm still having trouble with the cyclical breathing, but I'm getting there. When I use it I generally have been making a little more progress with the subtle embellishments than with the breathing. I haven't learned about their traditional dances though. Thanks for mentioning it, I'll look it up when I can.

    The point about my digeridoo is that it is not a part of my prayer or my church practice. If you want to talk about me as a part of the Church, there is no didgeridoo or Aboriginal practices of any kind; there is only me trying to be the best Christian I can be and discovering a multitude of ways of doing a terrible job at it. If you are taling about my church as a part of the world, then I'd say that it has members (like me) who admire folk traditions from all over the world. Speaking for myself, my capacity is limited; what I don't know about world traditions is not out of apathy. I'm doing my best. Regardless of who thinks it is good enough, I will continue.

    Again, I would like to know what biggotry you are talking about. Is the Coptic Church stealing land from the indigeneous tribes? If so, then where is the government of Australia in all of this? The Church should be the light of the world. If it is mistreating people it needs to be corrected right away.

    If you mean that Coptic people are legally moving to Austrailia for social-economic reasons and where there is a sufficient population of Coptic Christians they are legally purchasing a property and starting a church and prospering ... If that is what you mean, then you are demonstrating the very ethnocentric toxicity you say you are fighting against.

    The main point I'm trying to get across is that, as a part of the Church, we strive to preserve Orthodoxy ... full stop. The "Church" can't be expected to change it's traditions to suit their surroundings. BUT, as a part of the world the people of the church need to behave as Christians. 

    Here is where I think we agree. The people of the Church should be engaged with their community in a positive way. If it's as you describe, and the Coptic people in Austrailia are mistreating the local indigeneous people, you are right to call them out on it. If there is something I can do about it here, on the other side of the planet, I'd need a little more information. First, what can I do? Second, how could we know whether some members of the Coptic community in Australia aren't already positively involved in their community? They wouldn't be speaking and acting in grand ways for the Church; they'd be acting simply as good citizens and decent people.

    It's true that the Church is literally made of sinners. I hope you don't let the faults of Christian People make you give up on Christ. I wish you the best and I hope we can help on some way with the state of affairs in Australia.
  • ItalianCopticItalianCoptic
    The problem is not any church or institution, it is your lack of a basic understanding of human fallibility and sin. You have come on here and rip into the Coptic church, even calling me -- a convert who has no genetic or ethnic connection to Egypt -- xenophobic regarding non-Egytians joining the church. You also dance around various issues in a post as if you have the attention of a house fly. Grow up. You will never find what you're looking for when you cannot admit your own faults and misgivings. For a supposed follower of Christ, your lack of compassion is embarrassing.
  • SaintJaneDoe
    @George27 the greek ortho Atallah Hanna/Palestine - suggest support him as he stands for the suffering f both Christian & Muslim - is ethical and brave. The Coptic church will never and I mean never respect your efforts for unity. You are not Egyptian and do not worship at the shrine of a Pharaonic history. Interestingly some of the most satanic stuff in the world can be traced back to the Pharaohs and their witchcraft Also after my trawling through tomes of Egyptian history many indigenous copts converted to Islam due to the oppression on them. There is actually a lot of islam influence in the Coptic church lol the irony of life on earth.
    There is a website called Coptic Nationalism run by a Copt and it further explores what I am talking about. 
    Meself I am not keen on ever listening to Coptic music again which I used to love. The dead of the 21 martyrs in Libya - everyone knows Libya dangerous since uprising death of Gadaffi. The copts went there for work - desperate for income. Meanwhile millions of dollars are spent on icon and church building in the West. Where is even their love for their own people suffering in Egypt. It all doesn't add up and furthermore what was the current copt  Pope doing at the Vatican... 
    I have taken a Muslim friend to Coptic church twice. She loves it but does not know what I know as per above. RE my losing Christ - my belief in Iosa Criost has never been based on worshipping my own culture or others cultures nor the traditions of man & never will be. One day all the clutter of manmade perceptions and iding and fighting over who is best will be swept away forever and there will just be Dia Iosa and the Holy Spirit. Bring it on I say. 

    @ Italiancoptic teehee yes one must defend icing over the truth if one is in the cult 
  • SaintJaneDoe
    @George27 Re learning to play didge - authentic indigenous Utube page Lots of technique shown Meseff I had a didge but never got the knack of playing it. Requires great skill really The sound is healing is it not (I don't mean new age drivel stuff) but healing in its ancient stripped back beauty. slan

  • LivenotoneviLLivenotoneviL
    edited March 2019
    @SaintJaneDoe

    What is the purpose of a Church, in your opinion? Why should you be a member? Why should you wake up in the morning on Sunday and go to Church? Why should you read the Bible?
  • George27George27
    @SaintJaneDoe

    :) The sound is healing. 

    I haven't done anything like what is in that video, but that penetrating feeling when just holding a nice steady note is kind of undescribable.

    Γειά σου ;)
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