Pls can you explain the meaning of the bread and wine but use scriptures so I can look them up to double check. I read the Coptic brochure a priest gave me on communion and was traumatised by it all. Cannot explain any further but see James speaking and you will understand why. A Coptic priest also told me Copts don't drink alcohol further confusing me as did not Jesus Christ drink wine and use it in the Last Supper. Preferably an ex RC converted to Coptic church explain it to me if at all possible.
[ edited by admin -- I think the above question suffices for an objective answer about the topic. We are NOT here on the forum to put blame on any other church or group. We are here to benefit and learning about Orthodoxy and the Coptic Orthodox Church. Please respond with answers within that scope]
Comments
Just a friendly reminder: I will not allow you to be on the forum just for the sake of spreading your hate to the RC church. While, you can do that anywhere else on the net, we will not accept it here.
BTW, the Eucharist is more of an orthodox mystery than ever. The RC church didn't create it from scratch...they just happen to have it also because they are an apostolic church.
You are basing the value of one of the Holiest, if not THE, Holiest and most central part of an Apostolic Church on what one man -- from a different culture, who more than likely lives in an ethnic enclave of Egyptians, watches streaming Arabic TV at home and has little attachment to his current nation other than the freedoms it grants him to live his life as he wishes -- says?
I was Roman Catholic until I was 28 years old. You have to understand cultural differences when you ask questions. You will very, very rarely get direct answers from a Coptic Priest in the sense that you and I understand. We are both from Western cultures. How you and I communicate is much less vague than it is in the Arabic language. We want details, explanations and we ask why and how things are the way they are. There is no organized information or formulated structure, such as, Eucharist Adoration in Eastern Christianity. Copts are by far the biggest into saying, "Holy Mysteries" and leaving it there. It can be frustrating.
Now, some western born Copts are beginning to reignite the theological study that has dwindled in the last few centuries in the Coptic church and has lead to such an uneducated comment, like the Priest you spoke with. His words completely misinterprete the Eucharist and lead to confusion. It's embarrassing.
Christ is not your imaginary friend who always agrees with you and thinks what you believe is truth. You certainly have a lot of vigor and desire to learn, but your perspective of who and what Christ is, is lacking and is self-serving. The one thing you would learn when coming to any Eastern Christian church is that it isn't just about you. It's about Christ. Your sense of entitlement towards Jesus being in some way only on your side is not healthy, shallow and unrealistic. And your dramatic topic changes at the end of your comments clearly shows a lack of understanding closure, and skews the legitimacy of your questions. If you want to ask important questions, act like an adult. Don't use the same ignorant response that a 12 year old girl who got grounded for staying out past their curfew would use.
My criticism of you is not in any way a defense of my church, but to highlight your apparent lack of maturity, character and understanding of an educated discussion. Your post about a Bishop in Australia that was thankfully taken down was embarrassing as a former Roman Catholic and as a current Coptic Christian.
I agree completely that the horrific, disgusting history of the Catholic church and the sick nature of what went on for centuries taints the Roman Catholic church to such a level they are losing thousands of members a year.
That doesn't give you the right to approach any Bishop in such a manner. Maybe your Christ would ignore the Samaritan woman and spit on her, because that seems to be what you think Christ wanted?
You once criticized me for, "tainting" the words of Pope Shenounda, then told me how I defend my, "Cult", which negates your criticism.
If you actually read a book by Pope Shenounda, you would know that calmness, contemplation and meditation of the scriptures were the core elements of his writings. You show none of these qualities when discussing theological and cultural issues. You fill your posts with hatred and some self-serving relationship with a Christ that somehow believes you're always right.
That is not to disrespect him, but a lot of times they bring the guys from Egypt to a western country and if they didn't have children there, they tend to be ignorant of the culture in which they are serving. Two of my Priest's four children live here in the U.S. and get our culture, vernacular and how the social standards differ from their native culture and ours. That certainly has helped my Priest understand me and build a blessed relationship with me that is closer than even me and my father were before he passed.
I know men who smoke cigarettes in my Priest's front yard when they stay over. He doesn't like it, but he certainly doesn't say they can't be part of the church if they smoke.
I grew up in a culturally diverse Catholic church. When I grew up people weren't Italian/Irish/Filipino Catholics, but were just Catholic. And the Catholic church in the states is not the same as the rest of the world. It would look almost Protestant to you. They have Praise Bands at Catholic churches here! We had a monsenior who was obviously homosexual, and one of my Priests growing up was a well known alchoholic. That's probably why my position towards Priests is more apprehensive than yours. Two of my brothers are atheists from our Catholic upbringing, so that should show you something. Plus, the molestation scandals didn't help.
The Copts have a huge disadvantage of being socially and culturally monogamous due to splitting from Rome and Constantinople after the Council of Chalcedon.
The biggest thing that the Coptic church is dealing with is its assimilation into western cultures. We must educate clergy and laity on the difference between Egyptian social mores and values and the actual rules of the church.
There is a young man who attended our church, whose mother is Egyptian and his father is American. They attended both our church and a Roman Catholic church. One of the things I brought up was the diversity of Catholicism, and that Catholics present themselves as, "Catholic" far more than Copts present themselves as Orthodox. I am a Deacon at a Monastery, and of course I would want then to come to our church. I would rather be honest with someone. They now attend a Catholic church. Sometimes your own ignorance can bite you. That seems to be the case with you, and that young man.
@
ophadece Thanks a lot for your insights – no am not offended
actually feel abit of relief from the complexities of everything
rattling in me head… Re language – it would be beautiful to hear
the Coptic language spoken and used in realville & church All I
know are some words from Coptic hymns but I did spent time
researching your language. Meself I love all languages including
Arabic because all the worlds languages contain the kernel of our
respective cultures. When genocide is inflicted on any culture the
lst thing they want to erase is the native language as by doing so
they destroy collectively and individually an indigenous person/s
solidified knowing of who they are. As you experientially know and so
many of us diverse tribes do - the outcomes of genocide are despair,
despising ones own self/culture and general fragmentation.
A
Copt runs this website which I subscribed to and this article is so
pertinent to what you be saying!
ON
COPTIC NATIONALISM في
القومية القبطية
DIOSCORUS
BOLES ON COPTIC NATIONALISM ديسقورس
بولس في القومية القبطية
Latest
article on Coptic language
https://copticliterature.wordpress.com/2019/03/06/the-folly-of-our-fathers/
I
always got my bredrin… they got my back and me theirs… For 20
years I stood with Aboriginal Australian Christian friends and if all
goes to nought with Coptic church I will return to open arms of their
peoples…. They cannot grasp why I put myself through the church
ortho torture but u see my cultural I suppose way of innerstanding
God and worship is very close to the Coptic way… One of the most
special things I seen/heard in my life was holy scriptures read in an
Aboriginal Australian language. Some rare Holy Spirit anointed
footage: Aboriginal Australian Elders/Fathers Baptising their
people Western Australia.. Many tribes are desert people. Genocide
on Aboriginal Australia continued up into the 1980’s
“We
are all flowers in God’s garden” African Orthodox priest
Stunningly beautiful relay… he is a seanchai/storyteller for Gods
people. (Meself I perceive me as a daisy with some petals missing
hahaha)
Re
communion – I have given up on innerstanding it… it is what is –
a mystery and I am just gonna believe without total understand… God
is too vast/holy to question anymore & most of His believers are as thick as me and do not know much more hahaha...
Wanna
write more but no time… slan agus beannacht Blessings in God and
good health on u.
Addon rest of what I wtd to say
I think if more Copts
opened their hearts to other cultures surrounding them that
empowering and healing of themselves and between tribes can happen.
There is historical trauma, there is trans generational trauma and
there is ongoing trauma for Copts living in Egypt.
Why the Copts do not
recognise the suffering of their Palestinian brothers and sisters in
humanity who r living in the worlds biggest outdoor prison is beyond
me. Where is the dialogue?
The drama
re threat of changing the church liturgy/traditions
and so forth is ultra paranoid. No-one is going to change it unless
you yourselves do… Get a grip people! You like other
oppressed tribes of the earth have to salvage what is left of your
culture, language and preserve it, grow it back up as
best you can… Pass the torch to next generation.
America
was built on genocide and Freemasonry – to kid yourselves
otherwise is delusional. It is part of a Babylonian system.
The
Islamists/salafist/wahabists militants are not the
majority of Islam – they are the product of
Saudi/British/American/Zionist political collusion…
satan’s boys/mercenaries – the devils foot
soldiers… We are in a ancient war both literal and
spiritual. And oppression that happened
throughout history to indigenous Egyptians
is heavily linked in there.
Pope
Shenouda knew this and I was really amazed reading some of his
writings as he understood clearly what is going down…
That is why he didnt want Copts visiting
Israel/Jerusalem because he felt it the suffering of both Christian
and Muslim Palestinians. Atallah Hanna - Greek Orthodox
priest/Palestine is always a worthy
mention. It is Gods hand on his life that he has not
been taken out… yet… a very brave orthodox Christian man - is
actually Palestinian himself.
@ophadece
Very worthy viewing...
Our
Spirits Don't Speak English: Indian Boarding School
was built on genocide and Freemasonry – to kid yourselves
otherwise is delusional. It is part of a Babylonian system"
@
ItalianCoptic it is profound ignorance to mock as you have &
shows clearly you do not have any grasp whatsoever on how indigenous
people suffer, feel think… You just trample over it all. Re
training to be a Coptic priest – if you cannot grasp rudimentary
insights/understand, respect other cultures you are unsuitable to be
a priest dealing with individuals suffering or a peoples collective
suffering. NB THE PAST IS ALWAYS IN THE PRESENT. We carry our
ancestors wounds, (carry the good also – tenacity, faith in God,
determination our language albeit remmant, our songs our ways etc)
With carrying the bad - until the wounds are addressed they shape us
and cause issues such as fear, depression, addiction, suicide anger
hate outwards or hate imploded isolation… The wounds can also make
younger generation susceptible to militancy and violent
ideologies/responses as they lose hope/faith & see flesh warfare
rather than spiritual warfare as a solution…
Our
people are with us in the unseen realm You mock this and yet
acknowledge God angels saints martyrs… Well hello!! The past is
always in present…
If
not so why believe in God/Jesus Christ.? Also in Revelations in Bible
we worship the Lord in our native tongues… think think think
That
is why Iosa came to earth – to restore us… I suppose you perceive
Knights Templar as heros when the truth is they butchered and
bludgeoned innocent souls to death… It is a waste of time trying to
explain more to you. The truth is in your face - the whole world
is a colony under satans dominion Wish you well in your life and
your fam. Our very own seanchai/tribal storyteller Damien exposes it
all… His finest message… The pipes at the end would bring a
tear to a glass eye but probably not your eyes. You’ll never kill
our will to be free… (Come back soon Lord Jesus Christ… )
Could write more but cannae be bothered. It is clear the Coptic church is not for me
We
suffer with the Native American, the Indian in Asia Aboriginal
Australia The African people with their history so deep And our
children still weep and our lives are still cheap You came from
Germany, from France, from England And from Spain From Belgium and
from Portugal You all done much the same You took what was not yours
Went against your own Bible You broke your own laws Just to out do
the rival But did you ever apologize For the hundreds and millions of
lives You destroyed and terrorised’
I very much appreciate and commend your stance in defending the minorities and the indigenous people.. God bless you and bless your service. Please do not forget to mention me and my wife in your prayers always..
Dear @ItalianCoptic,
First of all congratulations are in order for the arrival of your baby soon, and also for your near future ordination to be a priest. God bless you always and bless all what your hands reach out for..
Secondly, editing posts on the fly is usually difficult for me, someone who needs time and revision to revamp their opinions. But, in short, you mistook my argument and focused on one point only in what I said - I said that the main aim was one thing, but also that the church has a missionary role and must disseminate the faith, dogma, and rituals in the Coptic Orthodox way. That is why I will always argue for the Coptic language in the liturgy and the vespers and midnight praises. I am glad you agreed to some extent. However I am not deluded. I don't appreciate holding meetings in a foreign country and talking in Arabic, which as you say is not even our language in the first place. Exceptions may be a small meeting of solely Egyptian people, or a presenter who cannot speak English, but I guess that is not the case you talked about.
I am not arguing against the church understanding the culture she is in at all, but that should not be a basis for imitating other denominations. I am not going to predict what is going to happen in the future as I am in a very similar position expecting a son in the next few weeks, but I would like to convey the message that our roots are different and they should remain different - at least this is one aspect of differentiating oneself from the world. However the British mentality and society is very different from the American. My mother and my brother live in LA, California and I understand your point about the diversity of the one family, compared to here. Brits are very proud and steadfast in holding on to principles against external influences and I guess Americans are more indifferent and welcoming of other ideologies, but please correct me if I am wrong. All in all, I wish that the Coptic Church doesn't find its character dissolving in the middle of all the worldly forces and influences..
Ⲟⲩϫⲁⲓ ϧⲉⲛ Ⲡϭⲥ
@ophadece Americans are less, "clanny" than the Brits. I know Brits who are Indian, and they must act, "British." To be American may mean to clean your weapon and eat Bacon for breakfast, to being a vegan who won't eat honey because bees live in, "close quarters." It is very diverse, and although the media paints it a certain way because of our politics, most Americans don't care what color you are, what you pray to or what you believe as long as you keep it to yourself.
There are so many different accents, regional traditions and cultures here that many of those who reside in a region usually absorb some tradition from that region into a culture. An Italian from New York may speak with an accent you see in Mafia movies, while I was raised in the midwest, and based on my accent alone was never regarded as Italian when I lived in New York because I sounded like, "I was on the radio."
I am actually very, supportive of keeping traditions. I go to my wife's parents church and they use electric candles!! The look on my face is priceless, my wife says!
I support the youth to understand the Deaconate ranks and responsibilities, as now Deacons take that responsibility as an ethnic right and ignore clerical responsibility as teachers and leaders of a church...not just the money coming in.
And also that we must teach the youth, and our adult parishioners, about the Praxis of the church.
You and I are actually in agreement in everything. I apologize for misrepresenting your words. My wife tells me I act more pregnant than she does, so my complete apologies.
On a more personal note, you are from an Italian background, married a Coptic woman, living in America and soon to be a priest (and a father). It does not get any better than that for me.. If only there is the option of swapping lives?! Haha.. Did I tell you before I am a big Juventini al scudetto e Milanese al UEFA Champions League? Did I tell you that I started to learn Italian and because I like Italy more than Egypt, Phoebe thinks I am an undercover Italian spy? In a way Italy ought to act as a role example for us Copts for the way they have revived Latin into Italian and the great inclination towards different people nationalities.. I have a few Italian friends and I only rue their belief in the "advancement" of the church! Homosexuality, women priests, etc, but I am not Catholic and I have no desire to believe in those things.. Sorry for digressing, I just love Italians as you can see.. God bless you dear @ItalianCoptic and please tell me when and where your ordination is going to be? I would love to be there..
Ⲟⲩϫⲁⲓ ϧⲉⲛ Ⲡϭⲥ
I certainly will pray for you to be here if God wills me to the Priesthood. The miracles of God are sometimes unseen. He took a man who in 2010 didn't believe in God, to a Deacon who complains to his Sunday School class they need to read the Agpeya daily! It is a blessing.
Good choice on the team. Juventus is mostly Southern players and my family is from Campania and Sicily.
I once served with a Bishop who came to introduce himself and spoke Arabic. I said, "Abouna, I am American." He replied, "Why didn't your parents teach you Arabic?" :-p
We're all Mediterranean. Una faccia, una razza. "One face, one race."
I have no idea where to go on that one.
Dear @SaintJaneDoe, I am afraid you got the wrong end of the stick and I believe your negative experience with that priest makes your judgement rather clouded. I think you are projecting earlier difficult experiences with religion and nationalism in Ireland with the Coptic population, who really really really, trust me, resent their association with the pharaohs.. In fact I hope that they have some degree of nationalism as I was talking about Brits, Italians and others but unfortunately they don't.. Other than that I can only ask you to mention me, my wife and my yet to come son in your prayers..
Ⲟⲩϫⲁⲓ ϧⲉⲛ Ⲡϭⲥ
I didn't notice the part about Catholic Baptism earlier. I was rebaptized in 2010. I hadn't gone to Mass or taken communion in fourteen years. My mother was pretty upset and I also felt a little upset at the time.
It just changed in 2017. It also can be done at the discretion of a Priest or Bishop based on the specific circumstances of the person who wishes to convert.
I was by no means a practicing Catholic when I became Coptic Orthodox, but it was a slap in the face between two supposed Apostolic churches to discredit the RC Baptism.