My boyfriend is Coptic. I was raised non-denominational Christian and I find his religion fascinating. However, I am a bit confused as most of the information that I find about orthodox doctrine is from Eastern Orthodox and not Coptic/Oriental specifically.
1. It appears that Coptics don't want intermarriage at all? I fear that I would never be embraced as a Coptic convert since I don't speak the languages and I am not Egyptian. If I convert to Greek Eastern Orthodoxy or American Eastern Orthodoxy, would Coptic priests marry us/recognize the union? I know this may be priest specific, but I mean more generally what is the view? It seems from online that even marriages to Catholics and non-oriental Orthodoxy is frowned upon. I know even if I converted to Coptic Orthodoxy, my boyfriend is concerned that his church and family may not fully accept me as he says Coptic Orthodoxy in his experience (he is Egyptian and now in US for a few years) because it is religious first, but in essence a culture second, he doesn't know what problems may arise. Does anyone have experience with this? He is concerned as I was not raised Orthodox or even Catholic (although I was baptised by immersion in the name of the Trinity and did attend Catholic school most of my life) that I won't be embraced by his church community.
2. He has mentioned certain things that I haven't seen in the literature and when I spoke with Eastern Orthodox Church they said were not true for them. He said that if a Priest found out that two people who were dating had sex before marriage that even if they confessed and moving forward did not do so, that the church would not marry them because they had sinned together.
I am NOT arguing for premarital sex. I understand and agree it is a sin. I am specifically asking why they would be barred from marriage afterwards when other views of the church don't seem to align with it he said this is true even if they had a child outside of wedlock that they could not be married by a Coptic Priest. This does not make sense to me as Saint John Chrysostom has said, even heathen marriages are holy and pure when true love is present and the couples are eternally given to one another in unending fidelity and mutual devotion. For where such love is present, there is the presence of God... And you would think that we would want to promote the marrying of those that had a child together whenever possible.
3. What other large things would you say are different between Eastern Orthodoxy and Oriental Orthodoxy?
So far this is definitely the best site I have found with Coptic specific views. I appreciate links and citations. It helps since I am learning about Orthodoxy for the first time and gives me context for things.
Comments
I went through the same thing when I converted. I see why you would use this forum to vent, but you definitely will not get an edifying response from, "Cradle" Copts.
there are several things you need to ask yourself (don't answer online!)
1 do u want the closest, most amazing relationship with God? if so, investigate the orthodox church (any), but don't join till you actually believe it (took me 2-3 yrs of studying church history +being loved by a wonderful coptic community to decide).
2 is yr relationship with your boyfriend heading towards marriage? this is less related to qu1 than you think, it is possible to split up but stay in the same church.
why is he saying you won't be accepted? is he heading out of the friendship already in his thoughts? (maybe not but check it out).
3 do you have issues from your past about being accepted? maybe talking these through with a priest or good friend will help to untangle the different issues here.
these are just some thoughts, it is probably best not to answer publicly, maybe you should message italiancoptic instead.
may God guide you +show you the way into the depths of His love
:)
I would not convert unless I agreed with it. So far the majority of it matches how I grew up for the most part. (My family is interfaith Jewish and non-denominational Christian and I went to Catholic school, so it almost seems like a mix of all three of the things I grew up around). We put a very big focus on a personal relationship with God and I have always been very religious, so I identify with the rules and rituals. I'm also already vegetarian (mostly vegan who keeps kosher) so the fasting won't be an issue.
Yes we have been thinking seriously about marriage and that is the goal of where the relationship will lead. That is why he is concerned. He is concerned I think both about the community and his family because his church parish is essentially all Coptic with a few people that married a different oriental orthodox. He doesn't know at his parish, anyone that converted (which means likely if they did they they blend in culturally at least. I'm a mix of mexican, Jewish, cherokee, Scottish, and Austrian so I would stand out). He also hears negative comments about Catholics and Eastern Orthodox sects, which is fine, but concerns him in terms of me feeling comfortable there. He doesn't think people will hear I'm a Christian-Jew and react well. We have had no internal problems in our relationship about it. We find a lot of similarities in views.. I believe he is mostly concerned about his immediate family fully accepting me , but the examples have been church members. He did speak to his Aboona about me and was told (this is without discussing conversion yet since I am looking into it and as you said it is a process that takes time and you don't rush into. I just mentioned it to my boyfriend for the first time about 2 weeks ago) that he isn't allowed to date me because I am not Orthodox and should break up with me immediately. This last Sunday the Priest specifically asked my boyfriend if he has broken up with me yet.
I definitely will send a private message as well.
> Especially with the person whom you plan to marry. <
1. Not allowing marriage to other types of non oriental orthodox Christians without them converting...I understand why you would not encourage it, would require additional premarital counseling, etc but I have an issue with not allowing the marriage in the church and thereby not recognizing the marriage and forcing someone to choose between love and their role in the church when the person they love is already a Christian.
2. The use of icons, which I dont believe is required by me if I was to convert, it is just part of the tradition and culture. I don't have an issue with others using them, it just feels wrong for me
I've spent about 75 hours studying Coptic Orthodoxy and those are the only concerns I have had.
I would prefer not to stray too far from the original topic of this thread, but I definitely had to jump in and comment on what you said.
First, don't log how many hours you study the church. I know, "cradle" Copts who know 50% of what I know about church history, the Divine Liturgy and even the purpose of fasting.
I don't let people know that unless a situation arises when someone teaches or says something incorrect. 75 hours is less than two weeks of work. That doesn't exactly shine a beacon of knowledge towards you since you haven't even studied two work weeks worth of time on the church.
Second, we are a church. If you live in the United States, you may be legally married by the specific local government who administrates marriage licenses. You can marry a man if you're a man, or a woman if you're a woman, or probably in some states a tree or box. That's secular, and supported by our laws. I support that people should have rights to marry who they wish in society.
The church is NOT a secular entity. It's obvious you have yet to understand the differences between a Western Christian marriage and an Eastern Christian marriage.
The church isn't a hall to rent. What's the point of receiving the Sacrament of Marriage when you don't believe in it? That kind of plays down the importance of the Sacraments that we teach. That would be like giving you an antibiotic when you have no need for it. It's useless.
I believe there are some circumstances where we do allow marriage from different denominations. I have a family who comes to my church from time to time where the father is Catholic and his wife is Coptic Orthodox. You probably shouldn't take your Priest at his word about that.
Finally, about icons. If you're not into icons, I don't really see a major issue with it and I can honestly understand that.
Since you are still a, "greenhorn" to our church, your views will change. You have a very individualized perspective about icons. If you know they are merely images to remember the Saints, why would you feel uncomfortable with them? My sister in law thought an icon of St. George was George Washington!! The creepiness goes away and you'll become much more comfortable with them.
Rules don't apply only to specific people because they are either a convert or were baptized as an infant in the church. There are also no, "rules" you HAVE to have icons in your house. I am truly not sure what you were told when you converted, but that's not true at all. I hope in time we can brush up on some of those incorrect or unexplained things in the conversion process.
I was similar to you after I converted. I was going to go on a long tangent about icons and their importance. But, as Pope Shenouda wrote in one his book, "Calmness", there is a time to explain something, and there is a time to not explain something.
My words would only seem like the words of a nagging parent to you right now. Good luck!
I am more concerned about converting and then not being able to marry someone who I fall in love with later who is also Christian unless they agree to convert as well. I don't understand why the Sacrament can't be between two Christians and has to be between two oriental eastern Orthodox Christians specifically. Whether I marry someone who is orthodox or not, it still is a belief that I am not completely comfortable with.
But, I wouldn't make such sweeping statements about Eastern Orthodoxy. It is a broad church with different jurisdictions. Different Bishops and Priests may not agree to that.
Keep in mind, the Coptic church is one church with one Patriarch, who oversees all the Bishops. It actually has significant communication and administrative advantages over Eastern Orthodoxy because it is far more unified.
Also, we have different synods and political/social standards. If there is anything you'll find about the Coptic church, it's that they take the Sacraments seriously.
I went to some Eastern Orthodox churches before I converted to the Coptic church. It's kind of interesting to learn about Eastern Orthodoxy. We had a woman who loved our church, but became Greek Orthodox, merely because it was all in English. I don't believe anyone on here would be upset if you came to our closest neighbors.
sometimes people are already married and then one of them joins
the orthodox church.
if this happens, it should be done with the full
understanding of the non orthodox spouse, but even then there are significant
problems.
but the differences that seem insignificant in the rosy
flush of new love, become more significant as people understand their faith
more deeply.
as orthodox Christians we view all the sacraments as much
more than attractive symbols of our faith.
the obedience we demonstrate in taking part in the
sacraments, is part of our relationship with God, and our experience of the
sacraments involves more than just our minds.
in USA, the understanding of how we learn has been greatly
impaired by the western european philosophies of 1300 - 1900 AD.
at that time, the human mind was elevated to being the centre
of understanding and experience and other types of learning (by copying, being
immersed in, or accepting something without full understanding) were seen as
being terribly old fashioned.
if you have ever learned a craft, such as pottery, bell
ringing or carpentry, you may have noticed that there is a lot about learning
that can't be easily put into words.
european philosophies of the last 100 years have started to
accept this (i'll spare you the long quotes from my studies in education), but
the mainstream view is still that the mind is king.
so how is this relevant?
well, protestant Christianity started exactly in this period
of time, in the hotbed of atheistic philosophy in central europe and is far
more affected by this mindset than protestants realise.
(side note - i also thought i was 'non denominational' until
a year after i started investigating orthodoxy. it really is a type of
protestantism and most of these 'non denominational' groups are based on
calvinist theology from 1500s. i have been orthodox now around 10 years, having
moved house a fair few times with work and been a member of nearly all uk
protestant churches at one time or another.)
so, for example in the sacrament of Holy Communion, we can
correctly say that we are receiving eternal life in God through faith in Him,
as a result of His grace.
in this we agree with most protestants.
however, we also believe that the act of taking Holy
Communion in itself transmits God's grace and blessing to us. this part is
something we can't really explain.
it happens outside the narrow confines of our imperfect
human minds. it is beyond our understanding.
we can't miss Holy Communion and then just pray a bit extra
a home and then feel that we did not miss anything. we also can't take Holy
Communion in a non orthodox church and consider that it is the same. it is not
the same (every person i speak to who joins the orthodox church from a
different sort of church says the same, it is not just my own experience).
similarly, the sacrament of marriage is not just the priest
helping two people to make a formal agreement in front of God. of course, this
is an important part of it.
but in orthodox marriage, both the husband and the wife
submit their union to the spiritual leadership of the orthodox church, asking
all the people to help them and pray for them and to help then raise any
children they may have in the orthodox Christian faith.
they agree to take part in the church sacraments such as
confession and Holy Communion and accept the special grace that God gives them
through these sacraments, which is something more than they can understand or
explain.
it is the priest who puts the rings on their fingers - they
do not do this for each other, as in traditions which stem from western europe.
this is (more than!) a symbol of the fact that God has joined them together,
and they have no right to separate (of course, you can take your wedding ring
off before you have a shower or a medical scan, for example).
the husband and wife are spiritual children of the priest(s)
who administer the sacrament of marriage, and it is normal for them to respect
the priests and bishops and to follow their advice. so as part of the family,
it does not make sense for them to be born (married) in one house (protestant
church) and to eat (take spiritual guidance) in a different house.
i hope this starts to explain the situation for you.
one last thing, check it out for yourself. don't just go by
what someone say the priest says.
going to a different orthodox church certainly makes sense.
and, as we learn using more than just the mind, don't expect
to understand everything at once. and may God guide you and show you the way to
the depths of His love.
:)
> most of these 'non denominational' groups are based on calvinist theology from 1500s. <
Orthodox commonly fail to distinguish between sacramental and non-sacramental Protestants. John Calvin’s theology is sacramental. OTOH, most non-denominational churches follow Anabaptist theology and refuse infant baptism.
> in the sacrament of Holy Communion, we can correctly say that we are receiving eternal life in God through faith in Him, as a result of His grace. in this we agree with most protestants. <
Following Anabaptist doctrine, most non-denominational churches believe that Communion and baptism are only ordinances. While a sacrament is seen as a means of grace, an ordinance is a practice that merely demonstrates the participants' faith.
> the husband and wife are spiritual children of the priest(s) who administer the sacrament of marriage, and it is normal for them to respect the priests and bishops and to follow their advice. <
And this submission may be incompatible with western mentality.
I also struggled finding resources on Orthodoxy specifically from the Coptic perspective, so with much effort I developed a website with articles from many different sources specifically from the Coptic tradition. I hope you find it helpful.
https://orthodoxy.life/
I dont live in the USA so I cant give much advice in Churches to attend there, but I know a married couple who converted to the Coptic Church from many years in Evangelicanism. There testimony is below.
May God bless your journey.