Interesting. I’d be curious to know if the synod really did make that declaration.
Do you have any proof?
Also, the whole liturgy is about glorifying God so why ban the glorification unless you misunderstand what the glorification (tamgeed) really is. Tamgeed does not glorify the saint, but glorifies God by honoring and commemorating His saints.
So Tamgeed glorifies God, not the saint.
After all, the first verse of every communion (Psalm 150) says Praise God in all His Saints!!! So it doesn’t make sense to ban praising God in all his saints with Tamgeed unless you don’t now Who the Tamgeed is tamgeeding.
Strictly speaking there are no rites for glorification hymns during or after the liturgy.. Actually not during any raising of incense service.. They have a special rite outside of such services.. I believe ideally they ought to be done after the vespers prayers finish and before midnight praises.. Ⲟⲩϫⲁⲓ ϧⲉⲛ Ⲡϭⲥ
@ophadece Ibn Kabar says that the rite of Glorification service is to be prayed after the conclusion of vespers (not after Efnouti Nai Nan) [and if I remember properly...that when the Synaxarion used to be read in Matins, it may also be prayed there] Also, back then Glorification did not necessarily have to be prayed in the Church itself, if a certain Saint or Martyr who was famous to the local village was buried at a certain area they would go Pray Veneration for that Saint at their burial site.
I’ve heard from word of mouth, the following: -The Synod banned Glorification during the Holy Fifty Days unless it happens to be the Patron Saint if the Church...but then again did not see or read any official decision.
And just a little FYI, nowadays all Woham/Paralex hymns, such as: Atai Parthenos, Ouran enshoushou, Etav eniskhai, Etc. Recorded by cantors say to pray them during Distribution time (since most churches cannot pray them after the Synaxarion due to time restraints) so these are all Glorification hymns...if you can say Atai then that means you can continue with epouro, melody, Khen Efran, Etc..
@Jojo_Hanna Ibn Kabar is spot on.. That's exactly what I mean.. They should not be said after ebnoudi nai nan but after the conclusion and as you rightly say not necessarily in the church. This is a new invention thing that during the holy fifty days only glorification for the patron saint is allowed.. No, it should not.. The Synexarium is not read on any occasion.. That's exactly what someone argued before we are focusing on God and only on God so we should not be distracted by anything else at all (why patron saints and not Virgin Mary on the 21st of Baramhat or the 21st of Baramouda? Or archangel Michael? Or... Or... Or...? I heard arguments like "well this saint's commemoration will not fall outside of the holy fifty days", "there is no other meaningful feast for this particular patron saint", it does not matter.. God is our only focus. Ataibartanos is not part of the glorification set of hymns, it is originally a Communion hymn, but it just got inserted there because nobody bothers to say it during Communion.. Ⲟⲩϫⲁⲓ ϧⲉⲛ Ⲡϭⲥ
If communion hymns are only to focus on Christ, and Adai Bartanos speaks of the Holy Virgin, then how is that?
And, if I remember correctly you CAN read the Synaxarion in ANY Liturgy, including Lordly Feasts. Fr Abdelmessih El-Masoudy used to do this and made note of it...
Our church has a Cantor from St Didimus’ institute, he would know if we should not pray Veneration during the Holy 50 days - he does Glorification at that time though...he even teaches us to start with O Nim Nai, Khristos, Ton Sina...!
Most of the saints hymns were created to be said for veneration of saints, or for glorification service (that is actually so out of order now, and Albair's book might give an idea about this), or after the senixar, or after the difnar. The new mention of saying these hymns in communion is in a way a new thing--it's an exception. But as usual, haven exceptions for weak reasons, opens the door for make more exceptions and them becoming the rule. So we went from one hymn during communion to an entire tamgeed....
As for the Senixar....a couple of people's private rites cannot become the rule. Pope Kyrillos VI used to read the senixar all year long, and Fr. Rafael Abba Mina took on that rite as well as a lot of other priests and bishops...BUT, what the Synod saw fit, and decreed is that it is not to be read in the Lordly feasts and that includes the Holy Fifty Days which is an extension of the Resurrection Feast. THE ONLY EXCEPTION to that is if the patron saint of that specific church's feast falls on one of the fifty days, in which case they can do a raising of incense, or revival or a general celebration of the saint. I believe this is a good and clear and appropriate reason for an exception to be made for the rule (which is included in the decree btw).
Concerning what your cantor says, rites are different from hymns. the study of rites include hymns, but the opposite is not the same. So many things cantors do, despite being given by legit sources, may not exactly follow the rites. Example: you are not supposed to say O nim nai except only once before the Resurrection Enactment. Why?! because it's part of Kata nikhoros elhegab, which is meant to be sung at the "hegab", the iconistasis and royal door of the sanctuary as an intro to the enactment. NOW, i know M Ibrahim and many others do, maybe to spread the hymn (it's not an easy one, but it is beautiful)....but it is not fitting or proper.
The bottom line is, specifically about hymns, we are dealing with a lot of rites that are made up on the spot. Which i may be ok with at some cases....but it's problematic when people take those times as a source and apply them without understanding the reasoning. Like: the gospel responses for Nativity or Easter liturgies at the cathedral have a lot of responses. that makes sense and works for that specific liturgy at the specific church because the need of time for the Pope to greet visitors. But you can't take that specific act and apply it to other churches.
@Jojo_Hanna Ataibartanos is a bit similar to biweik - in the latter we address Virgin Mary in more verses than we do the Lord, but that's OK because we focus on the incarnation of the Bread of life. A similar thing in ataibartanos where we recite the psalms talking not only about Virgin Mary but also the Lord, His incarnation and His everlasting power and glory.. Ⲟⲩϫⲁⲓ ϧⲉⲛ Ⲡϭⲥ
If we've taken all these hymns that are supposed to chanted after the synxarium and chanted them during communion then why haven't we done it with everything? Specifically meghalo. I think it's a fitting communion hymn because of its focus on Christ yet you'll never hear anyone say it. Any ideas?
@menafayik The answer is very easy, they are fitting because after the Synexarium the focus is on Christ, ie God the Word, exactly like the Communion.. Ⲟⲩϫⲁⲓ ϧⲉⲛ Ⲡϭⲥ
I have a question about Communion Melody origins, I heard a priest say that HH Pope Shenouda & Archdeacon Habib Girgis wrote the two melodies; “Night of the Last Supper” and “Our Redeemer”..... Is there any confirmation to whether this is true or not?
Dear @Jojo_Hanna I don't know the answer to this question so I will wait for other well learned members but please let's pay attention to the expressions.. Those are not melodies, those are Christian songs. Ⲟⲩϫⲁⲓ ϧⲉⲛ Ⲡϭⲥ
Christian song that is a carol.. It's different, the criteria are different, and the proper place is different, ie they should not be sung during the liturgy in any way, shape or form. I am aware that they are, but that's wrong. Melodies on the other hand are usually reserved for the Communion (although my personal argument is that they should not be) as they don't fit any other occasion. Have you ever heard Communion melodies in a youth meeting, a convention for example, or a religious gathering? They may but they are not because Christian songs are used.. Ⲟⲩϫⲁⲓ ϧⲉⲛ Ⲡϭⲥ
As above.. That is just my expression but I don't know what the "formal criteria" are.. You can consult more with Pope Shenouda's writings on this subject and other Orthodox priests and bishops.. Ⲟⲩϫⲁⲓ ϧⲉⲛ Ⲡϭⲥ
this discussion is a bit above my pay grade as my coptic is still rudimentary after 11 yrs in the church, but I like all yr posts, especially minatasgeel's. we had a new baby baptised into the church yesterday whose dad was also baptised as an adult, so for these people and all the others who are not so egyptian culturally, i hope that we can pass on correct worship that they can understand (personally i love coptic and arabic and would always prefer ta'amiya (falafel) and fava beans over nut roast and haricot beans, but we also need some translation). for me, the correct practice and making it understandable are equally important.
can anyone pls post a link to 'pioufa penNouti' that ramezm mentioned? I wd like to see if our subdeacon who leads saturday liturgy knows it. then maybe we can sing it.
also has anyone fitted the english words to 'bread of life' into the music in a way that does not kill the language?! sorry, as a native english speaker, I find it hard to pray if someone starting the next line of music (the pause for breath) in the middle of the word instead of at the end as we do in british choral music. i prefer to sing in coptic than in broken english!
lastly, ophadece's list of 'watos' hymns did not include 'the Bread of life', should it not be sung on a saturday? thanks for all this discussion, my dear brothers and sisters.
Dear @mabsoota, Yes, my point is that it should not be sung on a Saturday but I know this is not supported by many people. I am just a strict hard core absolutist but the majority of learned people nowadays are relativists.. Ⲟⲩϫⲁⲓ ϧⲉⲛ Ⲡϭⲥ
ok, so please post the link to what you recommend for saturdays, as this seems to leave us just with psalm 150!
is 'pioufa penNouti' just the extension to psalm 150?
like when we sing (in coptic); 'glory to the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit' and then 'glory to God' in greek and then coptic and then 'Jesus Christ the Son of God save us and have mercy on us' in coptic?
because it looked like it was a separate hymn, but then i thought that it could be what i would transliterate as 'piou fa penNouti'. i realise now there is not a separate word 'pioufa'.
Hi @mabsoota, Ⲡⲓⲱⲟⲩ ⲫⲁ are two separate words but please remember in the olden days Coptic didn't use to separate each word from the next or indeed use hyphens or other punctuation marks. Yes it is a special hymn on the wording of the last verse in psalm 150 hymn (of course not the psalm proper). As for what could be said in place of ⲡⲓⲱⲓⲕ there is unfortunately no fixed hymn and that is why I find @RamezM's earlier post very educational.. Ⲟⲩϫⲁⲓ ϧⲉⲛ Ⲡϭⲥ
Hi @mabsoota, It is not "pioufa fa", the English transliteration is "biwou fa bannoudi ba", the glory is God's, that is the literal translation. You can find it in the annual hymns section, congregation responses both under Gad Lewis and Ibrahim Ayad in the liturgy of the believers at the end of psalm 150, at around 10:30 and 11:30 respectively.. Ⲟⲩϫⲁⲓ ϧⲉⲛ Ⲡϭⲥ
to me it seems to be the last part of the hymn that starts with psalm 150. it is all written together in my book. then usually we sing ke et esmaro-ot (blessed are you). so i got confused and thought there was a new hymn, but it turned out to be the one i know already. thanks 4 yr patience!
Ah yes yes.. Thank you for viewing me as a patient person, I would like to believe that I am.. Hehe.. I just got confused because we had a debate before about the added part to psalm 150 and I researched into this afterwards so I thought you were touching upon that point.. Thanks again @mabsoota Ⲟⲩϫⲁⲓ ϧⲉⲛ Ⲡϭⲥ
Comments
Do you have any proof?
Also, the whole liturgy is about glorifying God so why ban the glorification unless you misunderstand what the glorification (tamgeed) really is. Tamgeed does not glorify the saint, but glorifies God by honoring and commemorating His saints.
So Tamgeed glorifies God, not the saint.
After all, the first verse of every communion (Psalm 150) says Praise God in all His Saints!!! So it doesn’t make sense to ban praising God in all his saints with Tamgeed unless you don’t now Who the Tamgeed is tamgeeding.
Ⲟⲩϫⲁⲓ ϧⲉⲛ Ⲡϭⲥ
Ibn Kabar says that the rite of Glorification service is to be prayed after the conclusion of vespers (not after Efnouti Nai Nan)
[and if I remember properly...that when the Synaxarion used to be read in Matins, it may also be prayed there]
Also, back then Glorification did not necessarily have to be prayed in the Church itself, if a certain Saint or Martyr who was famous to the local village was buried at a certain area they would go Pray Veneration for that Saint at their burial site.
I’ve heard from word of mouth, the following:
-The Synod banned Glorification during the Holy Fifty Days unless it happens to be the Patron Saint if the Church...but then again did not see or read any official decision.
And just a little FYI, nowadays all Woham/Paralex hymns, such as: Atai Parthenos, Ouran enshoushou, Etav eniskhai, Etc. Recorded by cantors say to pray them during Distribution time (since most churches cannot pray them after the Synaxarion due to time restraints) so these are all Glorification hymns...if you can say Atai then that means you can continue with epouro, melody, Khen Efran, Etc..
Doesn’t it??
Ibn Kabar is spot on.. That's exactly what I mean.. They should not be said after ebnoudi nai nan but after the conclusion and as you rightly say not necessarily in the church.
This is a new invention thing that during the holy fifty days only glorification for the patron saint is allowed.. No, it should not.. The Synexarium is not read on any occasion.. That's exactly what someone argued before we are focusing on God and only on God so we should not be distracted by anything else at all (why patron saints and not Virgin Mary on the 21st of Baramhat or the 21st of Baramouda? Or archangel Michael? Or... Or... Or...? I heard arguments like "well this saint's commemoration will not fall outside of the holy fifty days", "there is no other meaningful feast for this particular patron saint", it does not matter.. God is our only focus.
Ataibartanos is not part of the glorification set of hymns, it is originally a Communion hymn, but it just got inserted there because nobody bothers to say it during Communion..
Ⲟⲩϫⲁⲓ ϧⲉⲛ Ⲡϭⲥ
And, if I remember correctly you CAN read the Synaxarion in ANY Liturgy, including Lordly Feasts. Fr Abdelmessih El-Masoudy used to do this and made note of it...
Our church has a Cantor from St Didimus’ institute, he would know if we should not pray Veneration during the Holy 50 days - he does Glorification at that time though...he even teaches us to start with O Nim Nai, Khristos, Ton Sina...!
Ataibartanos is a bit similar to biweik - in the latter we address Virgin Mary in more verses than we do the Lord, but that's OK because we focus on the incarnation of the Bread of life. A similar thing in ataibartanos where we recite the psalms talking not only about Virgin Mary but also the Lord, His incarnation and His everlasting power and glory..
Ⲟⲩϫⲁⲓ ϧⲉⲛ Ⲡϭⲥ
The answer is very easy, they are fitting because after the Synexarium the focus is on Christ, ie God the Word, exactly like the Communion..
Ⲟⲩϫⲁⲓ ϧⲉⲛ Ⲡϭⲥ
Is there any confirmation to whether this is true or not?
I don't know the answer to this question so I will wait for other well learned members but please let's pay attention to the expressions.. Those are not melodies, those are Christian songs.
Ⲟⲩϫⲁⲓ ϧⲉⲛ Ⲡϭⲥ
Ⲟⲩϫⲁⲓ ϧⲉⲛ Ⲡϭⲥ
And what are the criteria for songs?
Ⲟⲩϫⲁⲓ ϧⲉⲛ Ⲡϭⲥ
Do you have any links or books that speak of this matter in more detail?
Ⲟⲩϫⲁⲓ ϧⲉⲛ Ⲡϭⲥ
we had a new baby baptised into the church yesterday whose dad was also baptised as an adult, so for these people and all the others who are not so egyptian culturally, i hope that we can pass on correct worship that they can understand (personally i love coptic and arabic and would always prefer ta'amiya (falafel) and fava beans over nut roast and haricot beans, but we also need some translation).
for me, the correct practice and making it understandable are equally important.
can anyone pls post a link to 'pioufa penNouti' that ramezm mentioned? I wd like to see if our subdeacon who leads saturday liturgy knows it. then maybe we can sing it.
also has anyone fitted the english words to 'bread of life' into the music in a way that does not kill the language?!
sorry, as a native english speaker, I find it hard to pray if someone starting the next line of music (the pause for breath) in the middle of the word instead of at the end as we do in british choral music.
i prefer to sing in coptic than in broken english!
lastly, ophadece's list of 'watos' hymns did not include 'the Bread of life', should it not be sung on a saturday?
thanks for all this discussion, my dear brothers and sisters.
Yes, my point is that it should not be sung on a Saturday but I know this is not supported by many people. I am just a strict hard core absolutist but the majority of learned people nowadays are relativists..
Ⲟⲩϫⲁⲓ ϧⲉⲛ Ⲡϭⲥ
Ⲡⲓⲱⲟⲩ ⲫⲁ are two separate words but please remember in the olden days Coptic didn't use to separate each word from the next or indeed use hyphens or other punctuation marks. Yes it is a special hymn on the wording of the last verse in psalm 150 hymn (of course not the psalm proper).
As for what could be said in place of ⲡⲓⲱⲓⲕ there is unfortunately no fixed hymn and that is why I find @RamezM's earlier post very educational..
Ⲟⲩϫⲁⲓ ϧⲉⲛ Ⲡϭⲥ
it seems like it is more than the 3 words I know. thanks 4 yr help
It is not "pioufa fa", the English transliteration is "biwou fa bannoudi ba", the glory is God's, that is the literal translation.
You can find it in the annual hymns section, congregation responses both under Gad Lewis and Ibrahim Ayad in the liturgy of the believers at the end of psalm 150, at around 10:30 and 11:30 respectively..
Ⲟⲩϫⲁⲓ ϧⲉⲛ Ⲡϭⲥ
so i got confused and thought there was a new hymn, but it turned out to be the one i know already.
thanks 4 yr patience!
Ⲟⲩϫⲁⲓ ϧⲉⲛ Ⲡϭⲥ