Hi,
Can someone here tell me the story behind "Agios Otheos". I heard it came from Nicodemus, when he was embalming the body of Christ. He was asking himself "How can the Son of God die?"... when he was asking himself this question something astonishing happened: Christ opened His eyes; by which he responded saying "Holy God, Holy Mighty, Holy Immortal!" The Churches then added the extra verses to what he said...
Can anyone confirm this? Also - does anyone here have the story or the full sequence of events behind this? I find it absolutely amazing.
Thanks
Comments
Hi,
Can someone here tell me the story behind "Agios Otheos". I heard it came from Nicodemus, when he was embalming the body of Christ. He was asking himself "How can the Son of God die?"... when he was asking himself this question something astonishing happened: Christ opened His eyes; by which he responded saying "Holy God, Holy Mighty, Holy Immortal!" The Churches then added the extra verses to what he said...
Can anyone confirm this? Also - does anyone here have the story or the full sequence of events behind this? I find it absolutely amazing.
i think the that story apllys for gholghotha. i guess you can count it as part of his to.
but i think the hymn goes back to the praise of the CHerobim and the Seraphim in heaven singing with the 24 priests. this hymn i think is included in the book of Isaiah and Revelation.
Now, i read your comment, and what im saying is: "Agios Otheos came from Saint Nicodemus". It didnt come because someone wrote it in the hymn 'Golgotha'.
Id like to know what the EXACT story was....
THe greek orthodox Church direct Agios Otheos to Jesus Christ.. i mean, it goes as proof that it came when Nicodemus SAW Christ's eyes opening.. i'd just like to know what happened exactly.
Mina,
Now, i read your comment, and what im saying is: "Agios Otheos came from Saint Nicodemus". It didnt come because someone wrote it in the hymn 'Golgotha'.
Id like to know what the EXACT story was....
THe greek orthodox Church direct Agios Otheos to Jesus Christ.. i mean, it goes as proof that it came when Nicodemus SAW Christ's eyes opening.. i'd just like to know what happened exactly.
Ok. about gholghotha, it was put by Nicoimus as we all know.
Now the Trisagion is part of Gholghotha....not asurprise becuase the origin of the trisgion is in the old testement in the book of Isaiah where it says that Isiah in his revelation saw the cherubim and the seraphim replying to each other with the trisgion.
So having it as part of Gholghotha is not a surprise since Nicodemus was a wise person who knew the scripture.
Actually the story i heard was that as he was embalming the Lord, he saw the angels walking with him to the tomb saying that hymn. I don't believe it was Jesus Himself but i could be wrong. that is just what i heard.
i don't think think it Jesus becuase at that time Jesus down in Hades openning the doors of hell and briing out the righteous ppl from there.
Yes that is true but remember there is no limit to where our Lord could be at anytime. He is everywhere. Now i am not saying that i agree that it was Jesus who said that but lets not put limits on our Lord.
am not putting limits for God's power, i am just stating what we know and what He told us. Also it wouldn't be hard for Nicodemus to put these words in a tune. we know that he was a very wise person and was one of the first of the priest counsil to believe in Christ (not fully believing in Him at the time)
Oh i am positive that Nicodimus was an extremely wise person and was definetly capable of putting the tune with the words but i don't think that is the point of this topic. and by no means am i argueing with you. i think we should stay on topic so that we don't go astray from it. we are trying to answer the story behind the Trisagion. not its tune but how it was given to Nicodimus. How do you think it was given to him? was it because he knew the scriptures well?
well am sure one main reason for that is becuase he did knew the scripture. There is books about the hymn, and trully i haven't read that much about it but i did listen to many lactures by george Kerrolos who does have great researchs about this hymn. so i realy don't want to brag much about somthing i wouldn't fully know. but i did say what i know
[quote author=jydeacon link=topic=5231.msg70197#msg70197 date=1177172399]
Actually the story i heard was that as he was embalming the Lord, he saw the angels walking with him to the tomb saying that hymn. I don't believe it was Jesus Himself but i could be wrong. that is just what i heard.
This is the story I heard as well, although I'd like to make a slight correction. On the way to the tomb to bury Christ (not embalm Him) Joseph of Arimethea and Nicodemus were carrying the body and thinking about the events that occured. They had doubts in their hearts that Christ was in fact the promised Messiah because of His crucifixion and death. On the way to the tomb, they saw a vision of angels chanting 'Holy God, Holy Mighty, Holy Immortal', to reassure them that Christ was in fact God incarnate. They added the verse 'who was crucified for us, have mercy upon us' afterwards as a result of the crucifixion.
As for Golgotha, as far as I know, Nicodemus had nothing to do with it. I had heard that the tune used in the hymn (in fact, the hymn itself) was what the burial hymn of the Pharoah used by the ancient Egyptians. It was later taken and modified by the Coptic Christians to the hymn we have today for the burial of Christ (kinda appropriate, wouldn't you think?).
As for Golgotha, as far as I know, Nicodemus had nothing to do with it. I had heard that the tune used in the hymn (in fact, the hymn itself) was what the burial hymn of the Pharoah used by the ancient Egyptians. It was later taken and modified by the Coptic Christians to the hymn we have today for the burial of Christ (kinda appropriate, wouldn't you think?).
well yes, that's for the tune. but i am talking about the text.
That's interesting. I just assumed the Coptic Christians came up with the text themselves. You wouldn't happen to have a source for that would you? I'd be curious to read up on it.
[coptic]+ Pi`<rictoc aftonf>[/coptic]
That's interesting. I just assumed the Coptic Christians came up with the text themselves. You wouldn't happen to have a source for that would you? I'd be curious to read up on it.
am not sure if i can find the written in a book. i know it's true because George Kerrolos of David ensemble uses this example in almost every single lacture he does. actually, i think i might find it in his video abuot gholghotha, give me the night to find out.
[quote author=Κηφᾶς link=topic=5231.msg70216#msg70216 date=1177212161]
[coptic]+ Pi`<rictoc aftonf>[/coptic]
That's interesting. I just assumed the Coptic Christians came up with the text themselves. You wouldn't happen to have a source for that would you? I'd be curious to read up on it.
am not sure if i can find the written in a book. i know it's true because George Kerrolos of David ensemble uses this example in almost every single lacture he does. actually, i think i might find it in his video abuot gholghotha, give me the night to find out.
actually i was mistaken, he only menstions that 'Filo' who was an alexanderian jew, saying that the hymn, tune, was only taken from the Pharaohnic times.
The additions "who was crucified for us" are normally attributed to Peter the Fuller, who was the non-Chalcedonian Patriarch of Antioch in the 5th century.
Since people at Constantinople saw the hymn as refering to the Trinity, they rejected these additions as inappropriate since it was only the Son, not the Father and the Holy Spirit, Who was crucified.
In Antioch, however, where the hymn was Christocentric, the additions became a test of Orthodoxy against Nestorianism since it affirmed that "Holy God" was crucified - i.e. it bore witness to the undivided union of Christ's humanity and divinity.
And this tradition is expressed in the account that as Sts Nicodemus and Joseph of Arimathea were burying the Lord, “doubts entered their minds concerning His Divinity. Suddenly, a choir of angels appeared to them singing defiantly, “Holy God, Holy mighty, Holy immortal.” The two righteous men realizing their error, joined in the singing, and then as if to confess their sin and to ask for mercy and forgiveness, they added to the angelic hymn the phrase, “O Thou Who was crucified for us have mercy on us.”
The reference
http://www.stgeorgeministry.com/holy-god-holy-mighty-holy-immortal/
Ⲟⲩϫⲁⲓ ϧⲉⲛ Ⲡϭⲥ
http://tasbeha.org/hymn_library/view/325
Ⲟⲩϫⲁⲓ ϧⲉⲛ Ⲡϭⲥ
I have not seen any one like that before. I can have a go at translating but I guess you are a very good person when it comes to translating from Greek to Coptic.. I don't mind.. Let me know anyway..
Ⲟⲩϫⲁⲓ ϧⲉⲛ Ⲡϭⲥ
Ⲟⲩⲛⲏⲥⲧⲓⲁ ⲉⲥϣⲏⲡ ⲛⲁⲕ ⲟⲛ ⲡⲁⲥⲟⲛ
As @ItalianCoptic says there probably is no Coptic translation done by a scholar, however, I do recall a few years ago I attended a Coptic conference in the UK which started with a full Coptic liturgy. They translated some Greek bits eg ⲥⲧⲁⲑⲏⲧⲉ ⲙⲉⲧⲁⲫⲟⲃⲟⲩ, but I can't remember ⲁⲅⲓⲟⲥ or ⲧⲟⲛ ⲑⲁⲛⲁⲧⲟⲛ so I will look this up if I still have the file in an email. Despite being very Greco-Bohairic proponents but I would say one of them has a very good grasp of Coptic.
Now, you - being 16 is in my opinion an optimum age to follow your zeal and enthusiasm. I admire your approach and I guess you don't live in Egypt. You have a systematic, logical, evidence based perspective that unfortunately many people older than you in Egypt lack and they therefore go on ad-libbing and making things up. Take your time and there is no shame whatsoever to find out some mistakes when you review things as you grow deeper. Remember that language is a fluid concept even though people call the Coptic language scientifically dead (I agree but I disagree at the same time)! God be with you and I look forward to seeing your effort either here or telegram or email - [email protected]. Please remind me to look for the file if I forget..
Ⲟⲩϫⲁⲓ ϧⲉⲛ Ⲡϭⲥ