we follow the gospel of saint john chapter 6, where our Lord Jesus Christ said 'My body is food indeed and My flesh is drink indeed'.
it is both bread and body at the same time and the wine is blood at the same time.
we don't try to explain exactly what happens at the molecular level just was we don't explain how God heals (does He repair the old cells or make new ones) or how He raises the dead (does He need to collect all the decayed molecules that have gone into other substances and then put the body together like a jigsaw puzzle and then bring back the soul?!) - i am being deliberately ridiculous here.
our Lord did not say that His soul was present in the consecrated bread and wine.
but He renews and forgives us by the power of (His) Holy Spirit when we take them.
it is truly a mystery and one of the important practices of the orthodox church is that we don't try to explain everything in tiny details.
we don't learn using our brains alone.
we use all our senses and our thoughts and emotions and our human spirits in order to learn from God, not just our brains
Interestingly there is a lot of history even behind the Coptic beliefs we have today. For example, Pope Matthew IV of the Coptic church seem to hold somewhat similar views to the Roman Catholic dogmas discussed in Fourth Lateran Council and the Council of Trent, but that seems to be an anomaly.
I don't know if this will be helpful, but some of the historical beliefs regarding Eucharistic consecration in the Egyptian thought are actually surveyed in this article that was just published this year: https://doi.org/10.1093/jts/flae049
I agree 100%! The liturgical life is experienced not just contemplated from afar. Yet, I think using your brain is helpful, and when done in a correct manner can actually enrich the experience. They can go hand in hand sometimes.
I'm happy to share what I can, I'll message you privately :)
This is the part I was referring to (but again, this is not the common thread of thought within the Coptic history-- the rest of the article explores more of the history. It might be simply Pope Matthew's own understanding, but it shows some of the diversity in Coptic thoughts regarding the Eucharist)
Matthew IV of Alexandria († 1675)
In a dogmatic letter concerning the Eucharist, preserved in Paris BnF Ar. 227 (1671), the Patriarch Matthew IV of Alexandria defends what he perceives to be the traditional Coptic view of the Eucharist. When it comes to the transformation of the Eucharistic elements, he writes,
Now, we will say our belief to them and […] to all the people that the Jacobite Coptic sect accepts and believes in this true faith: the body of Jesus Christ itself, which rose to the heaven and is sitting at the right hand of the Father in the heights, this same body by its substance and essence is present in the holy Qorban [Eucharist], and it is not visible because the presence of the body itself on the holy altar, is for the worship dedicated to God, just as the Latin sect believes, and we are with them in this matter, differing from them in another matter. These heretics lie about us saying, that we do not worship him/it nor kneel to him/it after consecration…We believe and say that the bread and wine [undergo] a real transformation to the essence of the body of Jesus Christ and the essence of his precious blood so that after the consecration the essence of bread and the essence of wine do not remain…Because the One who created the universe by one word, he is able to perform this wonder. He affects his body by his word saying by the mouth of the priest, ‘This is my body’ and he gave his body to his disciples in Emmaus, and he was in different places…We believe and trust also that this faith, which is from the command of Jesus Christ, is passed down to this day by the honored pure Apostles and the pure saintly fathers, this is the faith that we shall preserve unto death.[1]
[1] Paris BnF Ar. 227 (1671). Translated from the Arabic text:
الان اعتقادنا نقيل لهم و ]3[م جميع الناس ان طايفة القبط اليعاقبه تقبل و تعتقد بهذا الايمان الحقيقي جسد يسوع المسيح بذاته الذي صعد الى السماء وهو جالس عن يمين الاب في العلا ذلك الجسد هو بذاته و بنفسه وجوهره في القربان المقدس وهو غير منظور لاجل حضرة جسده بنفسه على المذبح المقدس له بالعبادة المخصوصة لله كمثل ما يؤمنوا طايفة اللطينين ونحن معهم في هذا الشئ مفترقين معهم في شئ اخر ويكذبون علينا تلك الاراتقة قايلين قائلين ان بعد التقديس ما نعبده و لا نسجد له. نعتقد ونقول ان الشريرين كالصالحين يتناولوا جسد المسيح بفهم اللاولون لهلاكهم والاخرين لخلاصهم. نقول و نؤمن ان الخبز والخمر استحال حقيقياً الى جوهر جسد يسوع المسيح و الى جوهر دمه الكريم حتى بعد التقديس جوهر الخبز و جوهرالخمر لم يبقوا... لان الذي خلق الدنيا بكلمة واحدة فهو قادر ليفعل هذا] هذه[ الاعجوبة يفعل جسده بكلمته قايلاً ]قائلاً[ بفم الكاهن هذا هو جسدي و اعطى جسده لتلاميذه في عمواس وهو كان في غير اماكن...نؤمن و نعتقد ايضاً ان هذا الايمان الذي من امر يسوع المسيح ربنا الى اليوم تسليم اباينا الرسل الحواريون الاطهار والابهات القديسين الاطهار هو ذلك الايمان الذي نحفظه الى الموت.
To show a different view, here is another patriarch of Alexandria (Pope Gabriel V) showing how he understands that the entire liturgy is one continuous long epiclesis throughout which the oblations are being transformed until completion by the descent of the Holy Spirit:
Gabriel V of Alexandria († 1427)
From the beginning of the liturgy until the mystery of the descent of the Holy Spirit, and when the deacon says, ‘Worship God,’ the priest’s hands are to be lifted up, directing his gaze upward, asking and entreating for the descent of the Holy Spirit. Thus, when the Holy Spirit has descended, and has purified and changed [the oblation], [the priest’s act of] entreating becomes directed to the one who is before him as explained previously. Christ has become slain in the hands of the priest.[1]
By putting an emphasis on entreating the Holy Spirit throughout the liturgy, the idea that the entire liturgy is one long epiclesis does not seem foreign to this Alexandrian Patriarch. Hence, the epiclesis prayer becomes part of a greater supplication for the Spirit’s descent. With this in mind, one can clearly deduce that Gabriel sees a consecratory process within the liturgy.[2]
[1] H.H. Gabriel V الترتيب الطقسي (English text from: Mikhail, Guides to the Eucharist, 129-130)
thanks a lot for that. i have some information from pope matta 4th also.
i will reply to your personal message and we can exchange documents by email if you like.
i have a translation of the passage you quoted and it goes further on to say:
'And just as his divinity was hidden in the womb of the Virgin Mary, in the same way it is hidden under the accidents of the bread and wine. The matter is the
same, because this was necessary for God to put our fidelity to the test, so that we might (prove ourselves to) be (faithful). For when Jesus Christ enjoined us to ‘eat my body’, it was difficult for us.'
so i don't think he means to say that we don't see bread and wine.
i don't think we can / should dissect out the exact details of whether or not there are still bread molecules present in the Holy Body of our Lord, so i don't go in to that much detail.
cetainly the Holy Body and Blood are really present (i used to be protestant and so used to believe differently) as i can see that God is present forgiving our sins in the liturgy (i think you can see it on people's expressions as they take Holy Communion) and this is why i am orthodox Christian.
my arabic is not very good, but thanks for posting the original (sort of original - i expect it may have been in coptic first) arabic text, i will copy it.
Comments
Matthew IV of Alexandria († 1675)
In a dogmatic letter concerning the Eucharist, preserved in Paris BnF Ar. 227 (1671), the Patriarch Matthew IV of Alexandria defends what he perceives to
be the traditional Coptic view of the Eucharist. When it comes to the
transformation of the Eucharistic elements, he writes,
Now, we will say our belief to them and […] to all
the people that the Jacobite Coptic sect accepts and believes in this true
faith: the body of Jesus Christ itself, which rose to the heaven and is sitting
at the right hand of the Father in the heights, this same body by its substance
and essence is present in the holy Qorban [Eucharist],
and it is not visible because the presence of the body itself on the holy
altar, is for the worship dedicated to God, just as the Latin sect believes,
and we are with them in this matter, differing from them in another matter.
These heretics lie about us saying, that we do not worship him/it nor kneel to
him/it after consecration…We believe and say that the bread and wine [undergo] a
real transformation to the essence of the body of Jesus Christ and the essence
of his precious blood so that after the consecration
the essence of bread and the essence of wine do not remain…Because the One
who created the universe by one word, he is able to perform this wonder. He
affects his body by his word saying by the mouth of the priest, ‘This is my
body’ and he gave his body to his disciples in Emmaus, and he was in different
places…We believe and trust also that this faith, which is from the command of
Jesus Christ, is passed down to this day by the honored pure Apostles and the
pure saintly fathers, this is the faith that we shall preserve unto death.[1]
[1]
Paris BnF Ar. 227 (1671). Translated from the Arabic text:
الان اعتقادنا نقيل لهم و ]3[م جميع الناس ان طايفة القبط اليعاقبه تقبل و
تعتقد بهذا الايمان الحقيقي جسد يسوع المسيح بذاته الذي صعد الى السماء وهو جالس عن
يمين الاب في العلا ذلك الجسد هو بذاته و بنفسه وجوهره في القربان المقدس وهو غير منظور
لاجل حضرة جسده بنفسه على المذبح المقدس له بالعبادة المخصوصة لله كمثل ما يؤمنوا طايفة
اللطينين ونحن معهم في هذا الشئ مفترقين معهم في شئ اخر ويكذبون علينا تلك الاراتقة
قايلين قائلين ان بعد التقديس ما نعبده و لا نسجد له. نعتقد ونقول ان الشريرين كالصالحين
يتناولوا جسد المسيح بفهم اللاولون لهلاكهم والاخرين لخلاصهم. نقول و نؤمن ان الخبز
والخمر استحال حقيقياً الى جوهر جسد يسوع المسيح و الى جوهر دمه الكريم حتى بعد التقديس
جوهر الخبز و جوهرالخمر لم يبقوا... لان الذي خلق الدنيا بكلمة واحدة فهو قادر ليفعل
هذا] هذه[ الاعجوبة يفعل جسده بكلمته قايلاً ]قائلاً[ بفم الكاهن هذا هو جسدي و اعطى
جسده لتلاميذه في عمواس وهو كان في غير اماكن...نؤمن و نعتقد ايضاً ان هذا الايمان
الذي من امر يسوع المسيح ربنا الى اليوم تسليم اباينا الرسل الحواريون الاطهار والابهات
القديسين الاطهار هو ذلك الايمان الذي نحفظه الى الموت.
https://doi.org/10.1093/jts/flae049
Gabriel V of Alexandria († 1427)
From the beginning of the liturgy until the mystery
of the descent of the Holy Spirit, and when the deacon says, ‘Worship God,’ the
priest’s hands are to be lifted up, directing his gaze upward, asking and
entreating for the descent of the Holy Spirit. Thus, when the Holy Spirit has
descended, and has purified and changed [the oblation], [the priest’s act of]
entreating becomes directed to the one who is before him as explained
previously. Christ has become slain in the hands of the priest.[1]
By putting an emphasis on entreating the Holy Spirit throughout theliturgy, the idea that the entire liturgy is one long epiclesis does not seem
foreign to this Alexandrian Patriarch. Hence, the epiclesis prayer becomes part
of a greater supplication for the Spirit’s descent. With this in mind, one can
clearly deduce that Gabriel sees a consecratory process within the liturgy.[2]
[1] H.H. Gabriel V الترتيب الطقسي (English text from: Mikhail,
Guides to the Eucharist, 129-130)
[2] JTS “Moment or Process,” https://doi.org/10.1093/jts/flae049
'And just as his divinity was hidden in the
womb of the Virgin Mary, in the same way it is hidden under the accidents of
the bread and wine. The matter is the
same, because this was necessary for God to
so i don't think he means to say that we don't see bread and wine.put our fidelity to the test, so that we might (prove ourselves to) be
(faithful). For when Jesus Christ enjoined us to ‘eat my body’, it was
difficult for us.'