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What do you think?
Hey everybody!
I was recently talking to this girl who is bisexual.
I was in the school chapel reading the Bible and she just came up to me and started asking me what i thought about homosexuality....
I told her the usual....pulled out the verses from Romans and Corinthians etc..
but i don't think i did that great of a job...so i decided to put together some verses and a report that I recently found to give to her.
I would really appreciate it if you guys would read over what I've put together....
try to come up woth arguements against what I'm saying so that when i give it to her...it is somthing that I can hand over with confidence.
I'm also planning onshowing it to my FOC before I give it to her...
It hopefully won't take that long to read....and I think all of you would find the report really interesting.
thanks!
(please pray for this girl...she seems to really be struggling with this issue and some other things in her life..)
God Bless
I was recently talking to this girl who is bisexual.
I was in the school chapel reading the Bible and she just came up to me and started asking me what i thought about homosexuality....
I told her the usual....pulled out the verses from Romans and Corinthians etc..
but i don't think i did that great of a job...so i decided to put together some verses and a report that I recently found to give to her.
I would really appreciate it if you guys would read over what I've put together....
try to come up woth arguements against what I'm saying so that when i give it to her...it is somthing that I can hand over with confidence.
I'm also planning onshowing it to my FOC before I give it to her...
It hopefully won't take that long to read....and I think all of you would find the report really interesting.
thanks!
(please pray for this girl...she seems to really be struggling with this issue and some other things in her life..)
God Bless
Comments
shes in my prayers
i second that
GB ALL
+FROG+
Its great what you are doing for your friend, May God Bless you and reward you.
There is a book by Fr. Mikhail E. Mikhail from St. Mark's Church in Cleveland OH in English about this topic. It has a collection of verses, and some secular refrences what it is wrong. If you can't find it in your local church bookstore, below is the info for abouna and the church he serves in. It is not a huge book (more like a booklet)
Hope this helps
hem hem.. someppl say that its medicaly proven that u can only be homosexual by experimentation. but arent young ppl that dont necessarily experiment bs as well?
I don't think it is medically proven...there are people who believe that they are homosexual without ever having sex with anyone....they say that they've just never felt that kind of attraction to a person of the opposite sex....that's what this particular girl said to me...so experimentation is obviously not the ONLY way...
To Coptic boy
Thanks..I'll try to get my hands on that book
To everybody
I don't think I did my original post properly.....I can't find the attachment that I tried to attach...maybe I'm just blind...is everyone able to read it? and if not how do i attach word documents?
GB
I don't know how that came out to be but it's disturbing...and nope even if it's medically proven to be correct it's really NOT
she is in my prayers
no I personally can't read the attachement...just copy it and paste it in a reply.
God Bless,
Marianne
it's looking like i'm officially disabled when it comes to computers so I'm just gonna copy and paste the thingy that I'm gonna give this girl....
This is where you can find the report I'm gonna send her....(where it says "pick a topic"... click on "Health Risks of Homosexual Marriage")
http://www.1clicklobbyist.ca/index.php?affid=216
Some things I remember from our conversation…
“It is not the preferred way, but it is not the condemned way either”
- it is the condemned way…it’s a sin, and just like any other sin, it’s condemned
You were saying that you have two friends who have been in a relationship and they haven’t had sex with each other “because they choose not to have their love expressed that way”
- and yet they call this Homosexuality?……I can’t really say, but I think that this just proves that people (homosexuals and even the general public) are confused about what homosexuality is and so they think that a great love for someone (of the same sex) has to be labeled as sexual…why can’t it be love that you feel for a sister….
- “Homosexuality is a predominant, persistent, and exclusive psychosexual attraction toward members of the same sex. A homosexual person is one who feels a sexual desire for and a sexual responsiveness to persons of the same sex and who seeks and would like to seek actual fulfillment of this sexual desire by sexual acts with a person of the same sex.” (according to the Encyclopedia of Bioethics. Vol 2, p. 671)
“The Bible says pretty clearly that it’s wrong and it’s a sin”
“Yeah, but just like you said, ‘A person is so much more complex than that what or who they have sex with’.”
- That’s true…I did say that….but only to point out that I am in no position to judge the person, (because they are complex etc..)
- but just because the person is complex, doesn’t mean that the rules have to be….
(I remember you saying that in the bible is says that it is better not to have sex at all…or maybe I said that…I don’t remember…..but I found the verse!
“Now to the unmarried and the widows I say: It is good for them to stay unmarried, as I am. But if they cannot control themselves, they should marry, for it is better to marry than to burn with passion.” (1Cor 7: 8-9)
-just a little side thing….
Bible Verses
*Note One cannot pick and choose what they agree with and disagree with from the Bible.
The Bible is one book that flows together and should be taken as a whole.
If you take out the Old Testament and consider it a myth and symbolic, then you break the foundation of the Bible and the “house” cannot stand.
- ex. If the Old Testament is just symbolic, then why aren’t the prophesies of Jesus just symbolic?
If the prophesies are just symbolic, then why isn’t Jesus or his being raised from the dead just symbolic?
If Jesus or his being raised from the dead is just symbolic, then what do you believe in?
- the point I’m trying to make is that even beginning to think that the Old Testament is just a bunch of stories that have no real meaning, then you take away from the validity of the entire Bible and nothing is stable anymore.*
“And if Christ has not been raised, our preaching is useless and so is your faith. More than that, we are then found to be false witnesses about God. For we have testified about God that He raised Christ from the dead. But he did not raise him if in fact the dead are not raised. For if the dead are not raised, then Christ has not been raised either. An if Christ has not been raised, then your faith is futile; you are still in your sins”. (1Cor. 15:14-17)
Alright…now the list starts….
“Love worketh no ill to his neighbor: therefore, love is fulfilling of the law”. (Rom. 13:10)
- remember all of those diseases in the report (report…not article…in reports there is no room for personal opinion) and how the chances of disease increase….and they can get disease that aren’t even in the heterosexual population….if this is true…then how is living a homosexual lifestyle being loving to your partner?
- as said in the report, “The only safe sex is, apart from abstinence, mutual monogamy with an uninfected partner.” (Sex, Condoms, and STDs: What We Now Know. Medical Institute for Sexual Health. 2002).
- If this were also true for homosexuals (two virgin men/women stay faithful to each other) then they would have mentioned it in the report…these are scientist (report was written by radiologists, neurologists, Cardiologist, etc) , not activists (therefore no bias)…they are just telling the government what science, over the years, has told them.
The whole “Sodom and Gomorra” story (Gen 19)
- the story is about those cities…basically God burnt down the city because of its sexual immorality
- note that a sodomite is defined as “someone who engages in sexual intercourse with people of the same sex (homosexuals) or with animals”. (http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?book=Dictionary&va=sodomite).
- if people say that homosexuality is perfectly fine and everybody begins to agree with them, then that means that what God did was wrong…and God owes the people of Sodom and Gomorra a huge apology….if this is true…than aren’t we denying God’s perfection and consequently Jesus’ perfection and consequently the salvation that Jesus brought….? etc
“Thou shalt not lie with mankind s with womankind: it is an abomination” (Lev. 18:22)
- wow...abomination…that’s a strong word…
“If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.” (Lev. 20:13).
- remember…because Jesus hadn’t come yet...the punishment for sin was death….thank God for the salvation that He has brought us through Jesus Christ His Son! Alleluia!
“Even as Sodom and Gomorra, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.” (Jude 1:7).
“Now concerning the things whereof ye wrote unto me: It is good for a man not to touch a woman. Nevertheless, to avoid fornication, let every man have his own wife, and let every woman have her own husband. Let the husband render unto the wife due benevolence: and likewise also the wife unto the husband.” (1 Cor. 7:1-3)
- man with wife, and woman with husband
“Flee fornication. Every sin that a man doeth is without the body; but he that committeth fornication sineth against his own body. What? Know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own? For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in you body, and in your sprit which are God’s. (1 Cor. 6:18-20)
- marriage as defined in Genesis and is restated by Mathew in Mat. 19:4
- “He who made then at the beginning ‘made them male and female’ and said, ‘for this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh’? So they are no longer two but one. Therefore what God has joined together let no man separate.” (Mat. 19:4).
- anything other than this is not marriage (in God’s eyes and in the religious sense) that means that having sex with a person of the same sex is considered fornication which is a sin…
“Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate (homosexuals), nor abusers of themselves with mankind (sodomites), nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God. (1Cor. 6:9-10)
- effeminate - from the Greek word malakovβ, the translated word is malakos which is an adjective and means…
- a boy kept for homosexual relations with a man
- a male who submits his body to lewdness (sexually unchaste)
- abusers of themselves with mankind – from the Greek word ajrsenokoivthβ ,the translated word is arsenokoites which is a noun and means…
- one who lies with a male as with a female, or sodomite
“Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of father and murderers of mothers, for manslayers, for whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there by any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine; according to the glorious gospel of the blessed God, which was committed to my trust.”
- defile themselves with mankind…..abusers of themselves with mankind…..same thing
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness. Therefore God also gave then up to uncleanness, in the lusts of their hearts, to dishonor their bodies among themselves, who exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshipped and served the creature rather tan the creator, who is blessed forever Amen. For this reason God gave then up to vile passions. For even their women exchanged the natural use for what is against nature. Likewise also the men, leaving the natural use for women burned in their lust for one another, men with men committing what is shameful and receiving in themselves the penalty of their error which was due. And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave then over to debased mind, to do those things which are not fitting; being filled with all unrighteousness, sexual immorality, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness,; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, evil-mindedness; they are whisperers. Although they know God’s righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them.” (Rom. 1:18&24-29&32)
- wow…that was long….
- it’s important to understand that the part that says God gave then up to this kind of stuff is referring to freedom of choice and the free will that God gave us….what it is saying is that God is not going to force anyone to do anything…he tells them what is good and bad through his words and after that everything is their choice…it would not be right to say that God gave them up is referring to the fact that he made them that way…if he made them that way then the Bible is contradicting itself ….how could God be loving and condemn homosexuality if he made them that way….therefore that interpretation must be wrong….St. Paul is referring to free will in these verses.
Some arguments made against these bible verses:
1.- "Homosexuality is condemned in the Bible because the Bible writers were swayed by the narrow vision of the culture”
- “the only limitation to the Bible is that it was written by human hands”
in response to these two arguments…
- these arguments deny that the Holy Bible is the inspired word of God and thus is a rejection of God’s word. The Bible teaches us that it was written by men moved by God and His Holy Sprit, and that it does not contain human theory or opinion.
“Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spoke as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.” (2Pet. 1:20-21)
if someone denies this, then nothing the Bible says should matter anyway….
2.- Paul didn’t know much about human sexuality. He wouldn’t have had any idea that some people might be born gay. What he was concerned with was what he saw in the Greek culture at this time, male prostitution and pederasty (lover of boys/older men practicing anal intercourse with boys)
in response to this argument
we can’t assume that St. Paul didn’t know what he was talking about. St. Paul was a highly educated person who has lived in at least 4 international cities, and has seen many people with different cultures, religions, and sexual backgrounds. As well, he would have been familiar with the writings of philosophers like Plato (4th century B.C) who distinguished between males attracted to other males vs. pederasty. Also the people of his days were familiar with the sexuality issues and had a good idea that they were complex ones (e.g. Jesus in Mat 9:12 mentions 3 reasons of why men are Eunuchs)
Some things that I just wanna say….
“Now the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing, that ye may abound in hope, through the power of the Holy Ghost”. (Rom 15:13)
“And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.” (1Cor 6:11)
- the thing that I love about this verse is that it comes right after that list of people that will not go to heaven (this list includes homosexuals and sodomites) (1Cor 6: 9-10) and it shows that there is hope…I love it!
When we condemn smoking (as we do), it doesn’t mean we dislike smokers.
When we condemn alcohol (as we do), it doesn’t mean we are against alcoholics.
When we condemn pornography (as we do), it doesn’t mean we hate those who use it.
When we condemn abortion (as we do), it doesn’t mean we cannot love those who do it.
The same is true of homosexuals
So let it be clear: It’s homosexuality that the Church is against, not the homosexual
I will keep you in my prayers…
you are truly a beautiful person…
may God always be with you…
I leave you with a prayer
The Prayer of Every Hour
Have mercy on us O God, and have mercy on us. Thou who, at all times, and at every hour, in heaven and on earth, art worshiped and glorified. The Christ, our God, who art longsuffering, plenteous in mercy and compassion, who loves the just and shows mercy to sinners, among who I am the first. Who does not wish the death of the sinner, but that he repent and live. Thou who calls all men to salvation through the promise of good things to come. Do the same Lord, receive also our supplications at this hour and at every hour; facilitate out present live and direct us to act according to thy commandments. Sanctify our souls, purify our bodies, set aright our reasoning, cleanse our thoughts, heal our sickness, remit our sins, and deliver us from all wrath and distress. Surround us with Thy holy angels; that guided and guarded by their hosts we may attain the unity of faith and the comprehension of Thine imperceptible and infinite glory for blessed art Thou unto all ages. Amen.
also there is a book and cd out by deacon Timon bout homosexuality
GB ALL
+FROG+
Here is a statement made in 2003 by the Holy Synod:
http://www.stantonymonastery.org/elibrary/holysynodstatement.asp
I'm sure most of you are familiar with it, but it is a short summary of our reasoning,
with all of the major old and new testament verses. Even though it is in response to the
ordination of homosexuals, it may be relevant in your preparation or if you just wanted to take a look, there it is. Thanks.
God Bless,
George
i think that is brilliant sixstringsoul
also there is a book and cd out by deacon Timon bout homosexuality
GB ALL
+FROG+
and Homosexuality by HH Pope Shenouda III
thanks for all your replies...I'm gonna try to read some of those books over the next little while...if I ever find the time! (life is crazy right now! I'm sure sum of you can relate....with exams, work etc)
neways, (before I give this to her) I wanted to make sure that I wasn't too harsh or nething...she's christian and bisexual...so if she suddenly gets overwhelmed with all of this information, she might just push it all away and stop caring....I really don't want that to happen....and i also wanted people to check out my interpritations and extensions of the verses..is what I'm saying right?
thanks again for the replies...keep her in your prayers...
GB
"Homosexuality and women ordination"
it was acally a set of sermons, and it was so amazing that the church comprized it into a book - word for word from the sermons.
its the best book to relate to.
God bless
That report/explnation is really good, its mild too: in terms of its tone.
You have to be careful though not to hurt her feelings, God calls us to be wise when dealing with people, so treating her aliittle harshly will do the opposite to what you want to happen, besides she is interested in you openion; great, why not give her the bible's too...in a concievable manner, i.e. tell her the truth but dont rebuke her...well i think you know that already, so i'll move to my next point.
DO NOT FALL for the "homosexuality is a medical condition/disease", believe me this is WRONG. Homosexuality, my friend is a LIFESTYLE that some people accept, and others live by. It is a concience choice made by them about where their lustful desires should lead (sex type).
It is also one that is not acceptable by church standrards.
GB ALL
+FROG+
thanks for the reply (and everyone else..of course)...I was trying to be really mind in my tone....it seems like that kind of worked...
....I have seen it happen before....if you throw too much at people, they just harden thier hearts and push away all of the very valid information you give them....
neways, what I had pasted there is just my explanation of a couple of bible verses....but I have a link to a report also pasted...it's.....
http://www.1clicklobbyist.ca/index.php?affid=216
...I think you guys whould really like this report...it has all of these statistics and stuff talking about homosexuality and its relation to ...mental health, STDs, stability of the homosex. relationships, pedophilia, the idea of "gay gene" ...It's really great...I think every1 should try to take a look at it
ok..gtg
GB
GB ALL
+FROG+
by the way, FROG...your answers to everything are always really great....I always look forward to what you have to say...keep it up!
GB
GB ALL
+FROG+