honestly marmar... ur tryin to squeeze water out of a stone... u no that its rong to go to a church that is not the same faith but ur trying to find a reason to make it sound right. its not right and i think u no it but dont wanna admit it...
Ok understand the part yes "we should participate with these christian denominations" but i gotta tell you tht u are wrong for calling them unbelievers .........they are beleivers
It's not as cut-and-dry as that. It's a simple thing to call EO's or even Catholics "fellow Christians", but when it comes to Protestants it's a little more touchy. What about fringe groups like Seventh Day Adventists and United Pentecostals? Do you lump them under the category of "Christian"? I mean: where do you draw the line?
That's the problem with ecumenism: as to which groups are worthy of dialoguing with ultimately becomes quite an arbitrary affair. Why draw the line after Lutherans but before Seventh Day Adventists? They are both equally un-Apostolic. Why not at least be consistent and simply draw the line around the Orthodox Church?
See the problem is not what will happen, it is more like what MIGHT happen. These poeple may be GREAT people, however being among them might, just might influnce our beliefs. You might be put in the position of having to explain your faith, something which alot of servants and sadly clergy may not be able to do.
The other important question is. Instead of asking why not go, ask yourself why go? Is it to benefit spiritually? is it cuz we don't have activities at our churches? is it to hang out with friends? what is the reason for going?
If it is to hang out, then we can hang out somewhere else If it is for spiritual benfit then we have enuf to last us 10 life times over (not including Tasbeha) If it is lack of activities at our churches, then lets see if we can get involved, and invite some of those people to our church to take a taste of the true faith.
I just see no reason in going or let me rephrase that. I don't see any GOOD reason for going and a LOT of reasons NOT TO. Afterall you must respect your parent's wishes and talk to your Father of Confession. He knows more about your spirituallty and whether you can handle it or not.
This is getting into a very interesting discussion because i am also confused on this issue
I was always taught that it is up to God to judge these people as unbelievers or not
and secondly, i do agree with "you stole my name " that we should draw a line between our involvement with these christian groups but what i do not believe is judging them because it is not up to us to critize them ... it hard for me to explain
I have done my share of visiting other churches... and you know what that caused me... lose of spirit, I have been so dry spiritually, since I started visiting other churches... because now I question everything about the church, and who is right... we are in the PERFECT CHURCH... question our church... and you will find answers... question other churches, and you will find confusion. The best thing to do is not mingle with other religions for your sake, and the sake of your eternal life…
but what i do not believe is judging them because it is not up to us to critize them ...
You can judge... the faith, not the people... according to the gospel of Saint John... "Do not judge according to appearance, but judge with righteous judgment." let us not block our minds… but you see how they invited you… why don’t you invite them, to your church?
hey nice reply socoolbishoy. i would agree with your anser because it does make sense in the first paragraph and that what you said about going to other churches and losing spirit and what you had been taught about god!!!! great job!!!!! :)
Well then...I hope we all learn from this excellent discussion....The answer to this question is really simple...as a general rule...do NOT go through this alone...I mean, there has to be somebody older and more experienced than you in the way to God through His church....
That's why, but that's not the main reason, we have father confessors. Anyways...the answer is then obviously...look at the church history and learn from it...u'll find the lines already drawn and clearly stated...and u'll find Saints who judged the correct judgement by the grace of God...such as A. Athanasios....A. Dioscoros, and so on...count by the hundreds, if not thousands!
Second...love God more...although this sounds a bit euphoric, it is very real. I mean, we don't go through all these liturgies and sacrements and "Gehad" for nothing! It is for that reason...and through the two above stated reason, we'll , by the grace of God, judge the correct judgement, so as to speak.
[quote author=MarMar91 link=board=10;threadid=1896;start=15#msg29755 date=1120016851] ok, so what r u guys saying, that it is wrong to learn about other religions cuz i take a subject in school on catholic teaching... but i know the main differences...
so is what ur saying is that it is wrong to learn about and visit other churches?? sorry guys, but that doesnt make any sense!!
Ok i dont think they're saying, like its 110% wrong and its the worst sin you can commit, just try avoiding it if you can...
as for your class as long as you know the differences and strongly believe ours is right, i dont think you have a problem.
I am not understanding why people think it's wrong to attend other churches...I attend a Catholic school, and so I asked Abouna if it was wrong to take part in the prayers we have for advent. He told me that it was absolutely fine, because we are just PRAYING...in fact he told me that he has prayed with Protestants before... God Bless and take care.
Praying is not a euphoric feeling....it's not that everybody there is holding hands and singing Kumbayah...alright?
Ask some other Abouna, or read the Pope's church opinion about it...it's a long story, but it's not we hate these people....but we do NOT go along with them in their mistakes...but we have our own beautiful church we are trying to learn from FIRST...we have our own relationship with God through this church...we have a LOT of things...it's a long story..
Look...visiting other churches is not visiting other countries...it's your abadia which is at stake here...it's not that we are all equal...it's just that we wouldn't go to somebody who willingly agrees to change the Lord's path!
Mansour...if u truly understand the church's prayers in Advent and Ressurection and other things...you wouldn't WANT to go anywhere else....
u can choose 2 go or not 2, but bfr u do , u need 2 really think about a couple of things:
* why am I going there? is it to play wit my friend and get to know others or is it to find about the religion and compare it with mine.
if its to play nd have fun , den i can do dat outside their religious environement nd on general terms. Meaning that both party's avoid comparing or criticizing each others religions. (mutual respect for each other's religion)
if you are going there so you can find out more about their religion then you can do so by simply asking them about the different aspects of their religion. (eg: do u pray, fast, what do u believe in, what sort of activities do u have for both children nd youth).
general questions to feed your knowledge and understanding about other religions. that i guess is fine for it can position u to appreciate your own faith (religion) even more, it can weaken it 2 (own faith) if ur originally weak in ur own faith. thats why our church advices its children not to go outside, for they do not yet have da proper foundation and are after all human who can be influenced.
plz dont tell me i wont be influenced or my faith is strong enough to withstand anything. we are weak and when we are in da same environment time and over again (then its likely that it will affect us in someway). As for your faith, its like anyone else's, only strengthened by God and weakened when you choose to move away from him.
finally, if you are looking for an exciting youth meeting environment then be the first to create that at your church(through activities or maybe board games after the meeting) if its too dull or dosent exist at all.
rf_zachari, he was just praying with them...not at a church or anything! I don't get it, it's wrong if I take part in the Advent prayers at school?! Like when they light the candles on the wreath and stuff?...We are all praying to ONE GOD...It's not like we are partaking in the sacraments or anything?!
im not sure why this is so complicated...i agree with the people who said you should just invite them to your church.. sounds good to me. usually if i wanna attend a different church i stay with my religion boundaries. i think its really interesting visiting other coptic orthodox churches... it can be something new and you meet new people and you get to experience how another abounas recite the liturgy.. the liturgy will be almost the same but its still sumtin different. i know u said its just a youth thing but they might question your religion and will you be able to reply back. why confuse urself when there are so many other better options u can do. plus i think your parents kknow best and you might not agree with them now but later on you might be thanking them! ;D take care and God bless sis in Christ, makook
[quote author=MarMar91 link=board=10;threadid=1896;start=15#msg29902 date=1120173048] uhh, excuse me? praying is talking to God, no ifs ands or buts....
I go to Catholic school as well and we pray everyday in school, i attend their masses during schooltime too, i pray with them, sing with them, but i dont take communion, and when they say the creed, i don't join in... if u r educated, sure .... its real dumb to say u can't pray with other denominations of christianity...
EXACTLY! I'm glad you understand what I'm thinking!
[quote author=MarMar91 link=board=10;threadid=1896;start=15#msg29902 date=1120173048] uhh, excuse me? praying is talking to God, no ifs ands or buts....
I'm very sorry Marmar91....but that is SOOOOOO wrong...once again....talking to God is NOT a euphoric feeling....don't draw the line on the sacrements...draw the line on anything they do....not because we hate them but because we would not willingly agree to pray with heretics...or people who willingly changed the Lord's path....
Please reread pope kyrollos's post carefully....thanks man...
No it's not real dumb to say that we can't pray with other denominations...it's a very very sharp observation that our church begs us to do...not because our church is wrong...no...but because we're humans....and we always depend on our own thinking..."if I'm educated fine" oh....and u think Satan who can make Popes fall into heresy, as he did with two Costantinople Popes, can't make you fall into this?
Besides.....how dare we pray to The Virgin Mary as if she's God?! They do that! I know u'll tell me no...but if you look at their liturgies carefully u'll find a lot of other horrendous mistakes....
One last thing....this is the first time EVER I find somebody praying to God COMMUNALLY outside HIS church....His one and only Holy Apostolic Church...there is NO other place where we can communaly pray to God, nonwithstanding the fact that our whole lives should be prayer (that's another topic)...
One of the founding fathers of the church has this excellent kawl:
"You can never take Christ to be your father, if you do not take His Church as your moher..."
MarMar.....everything in our church is interwined together...the liturgies....the basic concepts of Christianity, ur personal life with God, etc...and thus everythign is dependent on everything....that is, ur prayer inside these places is not deep enough...don't misunderstand me...I mean it CANNOT be deep enough because it is outside His hosptial for treating the sick (the church!)...it cannot be representative of a life with God because we choose unfortunately to go to other places where we think that God listens to them too....
By the way....believeing in Christ ALONE is not enough...but that's another topic (if u ask...u'll find a lot of proofs from the Bible, nonwithstanding church history and patrological sayings, etc...)
In a way I did ya Marmar...or maybe I read their books...but I'm sure of what I'm saying....praying for intercessions is different than praying to a person without sins....anyways...look...it's your say in the end...but I'm asking if u change schools...just change schools if possible...well if not then I've heard there are Coptic Schools in the US...well then try not to stay there a long time....but anyways u know better....
I now u understand that...but they think our Virgin Mary was born without sins and was born a miracle birth like our Lord...and a lot of other things...
MarMar91...well I fully understand and I know youd on't have a choice and yes...public schools there are a mess I've heard....so yes, these Catholic schools are better are NOTHING....
The point is...whenever, during these four years, you feel as if anything you love and live by in your church is being questioned within yourself...quickly go and ask the question to ur FOC or your church servant...but don't ever keep it within urself...
Good luck...and may God protect u all
Mansour...did u get the point of all these replies or not....whaddya still think?
I think...I would just have to say that I back MarMar91 up on this. I too attend a Catholic school... :-\ lol...I don't really know what I think right now, because I still think it's okay to pray with people who aren't Coptic Orthodox ??? Anyways, peace and God Bless! Take care.
I'm very sorry for being very picky on words....but there's a difference between FOR them and WITH them....FOR is definitely YES...absolutely because you love them and want them to live what u're living...WITH is a completly different issue...but then again...u're right....these few years will pass and I guess that's it....
Just a note of warning...the real world will NOT be a Catholic school...u once said u wouldn't survive in a public school...well, unfortunately life in college is more than a public school....try to cope early before entering college...interact with more people, and may God give u e' "shaba3 el roo7y" fee el soom dah...
Comments
What do u mean?
It's not as cut-and-dry as that. It's a simple thing to call EO's or even Catholics "fellow Christians", but when it comes to Protestants it's a little more touchy. What about fringe groups like Seventh Day Adventists and United Pentecostals? Do you lump them under the category of "Christian"? I mean: where do you draw the line?
That's the problem with ecumenism: as to which groups are worthy of dialoguing with ultimately becomes quite an arbitrary affair. Why draw the line after Lutherans but before Seventh Day Adventists? They are both equally un-Apostolic. Why not at least be consistent and simply draw the line around the Orthodox Church?
The other important question is. Instead of asking why not go, ask yourself why go? Is it to benefit spiritually? is it cuz we don't have activities at our churches? is it to hang out with friends? what is the reason for going?
If it is to hang out, then we can hang out somewhere else
If it is for spiritual benfit then we have enuf to last us 10 life times over (not including Tasbeha)
If it is lack of activities at our churches, then lets see if we can get involved, and invite some of those people to our church to take a taste of the true faith.
I just see no reason in going or let me rephrase that. I don't see any GOOD reason for going and a LOT of reasons NOT TO. Afterall you must respect your parent's wishes and talk to your Father of Confession. He knows more about your spirituallty and whether you can handle it or not.
I was always taught that it is up to God to judge these people as unbelievers or not
and secondly, i do agree with "you stole my name " that we should draw a line between our involvement with these christian groups but what i do not believe is judging them because it is not up to us to critize them ... it hard for me to explain
Take care and please pray for me
That's why, but that's not the main reason, we have father confessors. Anyways...the answer is then obviously...look at the church history and learn from it...u'll find the lines already drawn and clearly stated...and u'll find Saints who judged the correct judgement by the grace of God...such as A. Athanasios....A. Dioscoros, and so on...count by the hundreds, if not thousands!
Second...love God more...although this sounds a bit euphoric, it is very real. I mean, we don't go through all these liturgies and sacrements and "Gehad" for nothing! It is for that reason...and through the two above stated reason, we'll , by the grace of God, judge the correct judgement, so as to speak.
RFZ
ok, so what r u guys saying, that it is wrong to learn about other religions cuz i take a subject in school on catholic teaching... but i know the main differences...
so is what ur saying is that it is wrong to learn about and visit other churches??
sorry guys, but that doesnt make any sense!!
Ok i dont think they're saying, like its 110% wrong and its the worst sin you can commit, just try avoiding it if you can...
as for your class as long as you know the differences and strongly believe ours is right, i dont think you have a problem.
God Bless and take care.
Praying is not a euphoric feeling....it's not that everybody there is holding hands and singing Kumbayah...alright?
Ask some other Abouna, or read the Pope's church opinion about it...it's a long story, but it's not we hate these people....but we do NOT go along with them in their mistakes...but we have our own beautiful church we are trying to learn from FIRST...we have our own relationship with God through this church...we have a LOT of things...it's a long story..
Look...visiting other churches is not visiting other countries...it's your abadia which is at stake here...it's not that we are all equal...it's just that we wouldn't go to somebody who willingly agrees to change the Lord's path!
Mansour...if u truly understand the church's prayers in Advent and Ressurection and other things...you wouldn't WANT to go anywhere else....
RFZ
* why am I going there? is it to play wit my friend and get to know others or is it to find about the religion and compare it with mine.
if its to play nd have fun , den i can do dat outside their religious environement nd on general terms. Meaning that both party's avoid comparing or criticizing each others religions. (mutual respect for each other's religion)
if you are going there so you can find out more about their religion then you can do so by simply asking them about the different aspects of their religion. (eg: do u pray, fast, what do u believe in, what sort of activities do u have for both children nd youth).
general questions to feed your knowledge and understanding about other religions. that i guess is fine for it can position u to appreciate your own faith (religion) even more, it can weaken it 2 (own faith) if ur originally weak in ur own faith. thats why our church advices its children not to go outside, for they do not yet have da proper foundation and are after all human who can be influenced.
plz dont tell me i wont be influenced or my faith is strong enough to withstand anything. we are weak and when we are in da same environment time and over again (then its likely that it will affect us in someway). As for your faith, its like anyone else's, only strengthened by God and weakened when you choose to move away from him.
finally, if you are looking for an exciting youth meeting environment then be the first to create that at your church(through activities or maybe board games after the meeting) if its too dull or dosent exist at all.
let me know what you think? thnx
usually if i wanna attend a different church i stay with my religion boundaries. i think its really interesting visiting other coptic orthodox churches... it can be something new and you meet new people and you get to experience how another abounas recite the liturgy.. the liturgy will be almost the same but its still sumtin different.
i know u said its just a youth thing but they might question your religion and will you be able to reply back. why confuse urself when there are so many other better options u can do.
plus i think your parents kknow best and you might not agree with them now but later on you might be thanking them! ;D
take care and God bless
sis in Christ, makook
uhh, excuse me?
praying is talking to God, no ifs ands or buts....
I go to Catholic school as well and we pray everyday in school, i attend their masses during schooltime too, i pray with them, sing with them, but i dont take communion, and when they say the creed, i don't join in... if u r educated, sure .... its real dumb to say u can't pray with other denominations of christianity...
EXACTLY! I'm glad you understand what I'm thinking!
uhh, excuse me?
praying is talking to God, no ifs ands or buts....
I'm very sorry Marmar91....but that is SOOOOOO wrong...once again....talking to God is NOT a euphoric feeling....don't draw the line on the sacrements...draw the line on anything they do....not because we hate them but because we would not willingly agree to pray with heretics...or people who willingly changed the Lord's path....
Please reread pope kyrollos's post carefully....thanks man...
No it's not real dumb to say that we can't pray with other denominations...it's a very very sharp observation that our church begs us to do...not because our church is wrong...no...but because we're humans....and we always depend on our own thinking..."if I'm educated fine" oh....and u think Satan who can make Popes fall into heresy, as he did with two Costantinople Popes, can't make you fall into this?
Besides.....how dare we pray to The Virgin Mary as if she's God?! They do that! I know u'll tell me no...but if you look at their liturgies carefully u'll find a lot of other horrendous mistakes....
One last thing....this is the first time EVER I find somebody praying to God COMMUNALLY outside HIS church....His one and only Holy Apostolic Church...there is NO other place where we can communaly pray to God, nonwithstanding the fact that our whole lives should be prayer (that's another topic)...
One of the founding fathers of the church has this excellent kawl:
"You can never take Christ to be your father, if you do not take His Church as your moher..."
MarMar.....everything in our church is interwined together...the liturgies....the basic concepts of Christianity, ur personal life with God, etc...and thus everythign is dependent on everything....that is, ur prayer inside these places is not deep enough...don't misunderstand me...I mean it CANNOT be deep enough because it is outside His hosptial for treating the sick (the church!)...it cannot be representative of a life with God because we choose unfortunately to go to other places where we think that God listens to them too....
By the way....believeing in Christ ALONE is not enough...but that's another topic (if u ask...u'll find a lot of proofs from the Bible, nonwithstanding church history and patrological sayings, etc...)
Pray for me...
RFZ
I now u understand that...but they think our Virgin Mary was born without sins and was born a miracle birth like our Lord...and a lot of other things...
Pray for me and for them
RFZ
The point is...whenever, during these four years, you feel as if anything you love and live by in your church is being questioned within yourself...quickly go and ask the question to ur FOC or your church servant...but don't ever keep it within urself...
Good luck...and may God protect u all
Mansour...did u get the point of all these replies or not....whaddya still think?
RFZ
Anyways, peace and God Bless! Take care.
I'm very sorry for being very picky on words....but there's a difference between FOR them and WITH them....FOR is definitely YES...absolutely because you love them and want them to live what u're living...WITH is a completly different issue...but then again...u're right....these few years will pass and I guess that's it....
Just a note of warning...the real world will NOT be a Catholic school...u once said u wouldn't survive in a public school...well, unfortunately life in college is more than a public school....try to cope early before entering college...interact with more people, and may God give u e' "shaba3 el roo7y" fee el soom dah...
RFZ