Being born a woman is absolutely NOT a curse or bad fortune. Its a blessing to be born in the first place and its a blessing to be part of such a wonderful church...so women cant partake in the making of the orban...so what...we are blessed with more important duties...like bringing and raising new generations of Coptic Orthodox Christians, who knows, you could raise a child who could be the next Pope, or a Priest...we are blessed to be given this amazing gift, and it is very VERY important, do not take it so lightly, without women, we wouldnt have Pope Shenouda III, or any of the saints and amazing people of our blessed church...if you think were nothing but baby making machines...you really don't see the beauty of what God has given you. There are other ways of showing your devotion to your church, liek teaching sunday school or helping in church services. Not making the orban is not the end of the world nor is it sexism.
Being a woman is like a calling to nurture and raise the future of our strong Coptic Orthodox Church. Do not take it lightly my dear. Without us, there would be no future generations to praise the Lord and make His Word known.
if you have the bad fortune to be a woman.. what r u to do??
^Why is it that we feel as though women have been treated so badly in the Bible when there are accounts in the Bible where Christ revered women and treated them with utmost respect! It's like we're only weeding out the negative remarks made about women and forgetting all the great things that some women experienced.
Let me name you a few examples:
-Lydia in the book of Acts... she was a great model of transformation for all women who were leading pagan lives during her time
-Mary the mother of Jesus Christ! She was chosen to bear the Lord! And Christ obeyed her and highly respected her! Do you not remember the time during the wedding at Cana of Galilee when Christ obeyed her and performed a miracle though his time "had not yet come?"
PLUS
As he was hanging from the cross, He even asked John to take care of His mother
-What about the time Christ allowed the woman who was a great sinner to weep at his feet and wipe his feet with her hair?
-What about the woman who was being rebuked by the phrisees? Christ defended this woman and said whoever hasn't sinned should be the first to cast a stone at her!
- What about Mary and Martha? Christ loved them so much that when he heard of Lazarus' death he immediately comforted them and stayed a while with them
-Christ showed kindess and hope to the Samaritain woman as well
- And don't forget that Christ also had women companions like Mary Magdalene, Joanna, and Susanna (Luke 8:2-3)
So, instead of weeding out the negativity about women, let's try remembering that Christ was a friend to women, and that's all that matters
Also, you said:
thats not fair, u dont choose ur gender
Well, im sorry to break this to you, but you also dont get to chose the rules of your religion. You feel really strongly about making orban, but this is church tradition: You can't change that. Its been like this for decades...remember, we are Orthodox Christians because we have't modifed our beliefs to conform to the ppl's wants and needs. If we did that, then we'd be accepting homosexuality, pre-marital sex, and other lusts of this generation. Whether you like it or not, we're NOT going to change with the times, we're orthodox...that's what makes us different from other accomodating religions
And the fact that we are ALL GIVEN THE EQUAL CHANCE OF GETTING INTO HEAVEN IS MORE THAN ENOUGH. WHAT ELSE COULD U POSSIBLY WANT?!
women can make orban actually. They just cant make the ones to be used in the offertory (the ones for the 7amal). I'm sure there's a good reason for it, even though i havent found it yet lol, but i'll ask abouna bout this. ;)
like it was said before, women can do orban but not the hamal. and by the way, no females are allowed in the orban room except if they are younger thn 10yo or older thn 60yo. the orban room is bethlehem whare our lord was born. and it's liked to the alter because god dewles there. if you think about it, chirst wouldn't be in the alter without being in bethlehem first(likened to the orban which is first made at the room and then goes to church and then ONE is entered to the alter.
well i mean i would love to be able to stand in the alter and sing the hymns with all my heart, but what can we do? we were born like this and theres no changing it, so i've learned to accept it... but in my church abouna wanted to like, reserve the front seats in church for the girls so that they could sing with the deacons and all, but i dont know how thats going...
see most guys cant handle like, giving sunday school classes to little children... hence, why most sunday school teachers are tasonis...
besides, God created you perfect, because you were created in his image and form... that alone is one of the best gifts on earth... n about guys having more opportunities, grasp the ones you have for now, n then when you run out complain to abouna...
hey i know this is a little off topic but u know this verse really bothers me, whats with women not teaching because Adam was formed first???, so then why are we teaching sunday school or choir or hymns or something, if it says women arent supposed to teach?????
"Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. For Adam was first formed, then Eve. And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression. Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety." 1 Timothy 2: 11-15
[quote author=MarMar91 link=board=1;threadid=2676;start=0#msg41315 date=1130639808] OKay, I just heard the most [glow=red,2,300]ridiculous[/glow] thing i have ever heard..
that women arent allowed to make arbana... so I thought it was a joke!
How ridiculous is that?
OMG, how unfair is that.. what next, we are allowed to touch cymbals?
I thougt there was neither male nor female.. galatians 3:28
i mean, priest n bishops n the pope okay, deacons was a big push, but fine, but we cannot make holy bread now?
seriously its like in ancient greece, the spartan ssociety, or other ancient societies, where women were useless and their only function was to have children...
whats up with thaT?
thats not fair, u dont choose ur gender.. omg, thats so mean...
i cant get over that.. thats so sexist... so if you get cursed and happen to be born a woman, what then?
ahh, thats so messed up...
we cant even make arbana... and in the bible, it says there is neither male nor female, yet male is always dominant... look in 1john 2:12-14 How come he does not mention mothers, or young women, but he mentions fathers and young women, and of course childen because they were blessed by the Lord, but what about us.. what happens to us.. if you have the bad fortune to be a woman.. what r u to do??
Yes you did call it ridiculus (as shown above). You also called it "messed up."
Im trying to make you feel bad at all, im just telling you not to call your own tradition, "messed up" and "ridiculous"
[quote author=MarMar91 link=board=1;threadid=2676;start=0#msg41315 date=1130639808] OKay, I just heard the most ridiculous thing i have ever heard..
that women arent allowed to make arbana... so I thought it was a joke!
How ridiculous is that?
OMG, how unfair is that.. what next, we are allowed to touch cymbals?
I thougt there was neither male nor female.. galatians 3:28 i mean, priest n bishops n the pope okay, deacons was a big push, but fine, but we cannot make holy bread now? seriously its like in ancient greece, the spartan ssociety, or other ancient societies, where women were useless and their only function was to have children...
whats up with thaT?
thats not fair, u dont choose ur gender.. omg, thats so mean...
i cant get over that.. thats so sexist... so if you get cursed and happen to be born a woman, what then?
ahh, thats so messed up...
we cant even make arbana... and in the bible, it says there is neither male nor female, yet male is always dominant... look in 1john 2:12-14 How come he does not mention mothers, or young women, but he mentions fathers and young women, and of course childen because they were blessed by the Lord, but what about us.. what happens to us.. if you have the bad fortune to be a woman.. what r u to do??
Hi Every one, Let me just tell you somethig you may be know, There are deaconesses in our coptic church. There aren't that much of them now, but they can sing with the Deacons and play the cymbals, they can't enter the Mazbah, but they are there, if you are near LA ask your priest and he will tell you that there is a center downthere which helps deaconesses to learn more alhan. but for the priests thing there just hasn't been in the bible (Old or New Testament) shows that there were a women priest , so it was set from the beggining from God. so there is nothing comes from our head that we just put there in the church. it all comes from the bible. But when we go to heaven we will all be in the spirit, there won't be a gender, Don't think of the earthly measures, but with the heavenly ones.
Why being a priest or bishop or pope is regarded as privilege? It is actually a burden and huge responsibility. So actually women were lucky to be excused from this duty. >:(
Also think of biological reasons. Women get menstrual cycles. What if it happened during mass service or the night before, how would a female priest react? She cant cancel the service because of that. :o
I am sure there are more reasons and Christianity was never meant to discriminate against one gender. How would you have 2 different genders unless they are different in abilities, duties, or emotionally.
Ok here comes the impossible tough question. Ready?! Why God ....... noway I am not gonna ask this question, it is gonna spin your heads. I have been thinking about it for years and I could not find an answer. I never dared to ask my FOC.
Sure there are some things that women are forbidden to do that men can. But this is tradition that an Orthodox Church should not change. The Catholics change things in their tradition sometimes to meet the wants of modern society. They have women that distribute the Communion. Orthodoxy forbids this based on tradition. In the Holy Bible, women were not always equal to men (for example: in the Old Testament, women were given off for marriage by their fathers rather than choosing who to marry). There are things an ORTHODOX (Orthodox meaning straight; unchanging; unbending) Chruch cannot change.
Keep in mind that there are some things women can do that men can't. So be grateful of your gender and your situation.
Sorry if i was offensive to anyone before, i did not intend to be. My deepest apologies.
Hey, I prefer to look at it as differentiation rather than inequality. I really belive that such inequality doesn't exist. I like to put it this way: different genders and different responsibilities. For example: we have to admit that we all love our mothers more than our fathers. Mothers are the sweetest and most precious thing to every child. Motherhood is amazing. Now fathers sometimes get jealous but they can't change it. :D
Ok my tough question is: In the salvation plan, why God chose to come to earth as a male? Remeber that God is neither a male nor a female, so why God chose male? Dont attemp to answer this question on your own. And plz don't post any answer unless you are sure about it.
That is true, a-deacon, but remeber God does what is right regardless of what people think. For example, it is hard to imagine that God came to earth and died on the cross and in that sense it is valid to say that he was killed by humans. It is hard to understand that, isn't it? But we believe in that. So my point is God does what is right regardless of what people think.
AthanasuisTheApostolic, what was the reason the pharisees cruxified Christ? They thought he was a threat. If God came to earth as a woman, they would have never thought he(she) was a threat, just something that came out and would go out just as quickly. They wouldn't think that she could have an affect on people, and that there was no need to kill her, and even if there was, not the way it happened to Christ. It would have been less pain, but of course that wouldn't be enough for the sins of the world.
Even some men Like Pope Kyrillos (my screen name lol) didn't make Orban because he lived as a hermit by himself. after the mass he would go back to the windmill and pray.
wait amin who said that pope kirollos didn't make orban doesn't it say in one of the songs that he made orban wait i forgot the song but r u sure about that?
Comments
Being a woman is like a calling to nurture and raise the future of our strong Coptic Orthodox Church. Do not take it lightly my dear. Without us, there would be no future generations to praise the Lord and make His Word known.
In His Name,
Love4all
Let me name you a few examples:
-Lydia in the book of Acts... she was a great model of transformation for all women who were leading pagan lives during her time
-Mary the mother of Jesus Christ! She was chosen to bear the Lord! And Christ obeyed her and highly respected her! Do you not remember the time during the wedding at Cana of Galilee when Christ obeyed her and performed a miracle though his time "had not yet come?"
PLUS
As he was hanging from the cross, He even asked John to take care of His mother
-What about the time Christ allowed the woman who was a great sinner to weep at his feet and wipe his feet with her hair?
-What about the woman who was being rebuked by the phrisees? Christ defended this woman and said whoever hasn't sinned should be the first to cast a stone at her!
- What about Mary and Martha? Christ loved them so much that when he heard of Lazarus' death he immediately comforted them and stayed a while with them
-Christ showed kindess and hope to the Samaritain woman as well
- And don't forget that Christ also had women companions like Mary Magdalene, Joanna, and Susanna (Luke 8:2-3)
So, instead of weeding out the negativity about women, let's try remembering that Christ was a friend to women, and that's all that matters
Also, you said: Well, im sorry to break this to you, but you also dont get to chose the rules of your religion. You feel really strongly about making orban, but this is church tradition: You can't change that. Its been like this for decades...remember, we are Orthodox Christians because we have't modifed our beliefs to conform to the ppl's wants and needs. If we did that, then we'd be accepting homosexuality, pre-marital sex, and other lusts of this generation. Whether you like it or not, we're NOT going to change with the times, we're orthodox...that's what makes us different from other accomodating religions
And the fact that we are ALL GIVEN THE EQUAL CHANCE OF GETTING INTO HEAVEN IS MORE THAN ENOUGH. WHAT ELSE COULD U POSSIBLY WANT?!
I'm sure there's a good reason for it, even though i havent found it yet lol, but i'll ask abouna bout this. ;)
and by the way, no females are allowed in the orban room except if they are younger thn 10yo or older thn 60yo. the orban room is bethlehem whare our lord was born. and it's liked to the alter because god dewles there. if you think about it, chirst wouldn't be in the alter without being in bethlehem first(likened to the orban which is first made at the room and then goes to church and then ONE is entered to the alter.
WE WANT TO HAVE KIDS TOO :'( 8) ;D
you wanna have kids hos erof? haha your wife would be glad to trade with you anyday on that one...lol jk
see most guys cant handle like, giving sunday school classes to little children... hence, why most sunday school teachers are tasonis...
besides, God created you perfect, because you were created in his image and form... that alone is one of the best gifts on earth... n about guys having more opportunities, grasp the ones you have for now, n then when you run out complain to abouna...
"Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. For Adam was first formed, then Eve. And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression. Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety." 1 Timothy 2: 11-15
is he mocking women??
i though jesus said love ur brothers and sisters and be EQUAL!!! ??? :-\ :o
Be objective and reasonable, not hasty.
OKay, I just heard the most [glow=red,2,300]ridiculous[/glow] thing i have ever heard..
that women arent allowed to make arbana... so I thought it was a joke!
How ridiculous is that?
OMG, how unfair is that.. what next, we are allowed to touch cymbals?
I thougt there was neither male nor female.. galatians 3:28
i mean, priest n bishops n the pope okay, deacons was a big push, but fine, but we cannot make holy bread now?
seriously its like in ancient greece, the spartan ssociety, or other ancient societies, where women were useless and their only function was to have children...
whats up with thaT?
thats not fair, u dont choose ur gender.. omg, thats so mean...
i cant get over that.. thats so sexist...
so if you get cursed and happen to be born a woman, what then?
ahh, thats so messed up...
we cant even make arbana...
and in the bible, it says there is neither male nor female, yet male is always dominant...
look in 1john 2:12-14
How come he does not mention mothers, or young women, but he mentions fathers and young women, and of course childen because they were blessed by the Lord, but what about us.. what happens to us..
if you have the bad fortune to be a woman.. what r u to do??
Yes you did call it ridiculus (as shown above).
You also called it "messed up."
Im trying to make you feel bad at all, im just telling you not to call your own tradition, "messed up" and "ridiculous"
OKay, I just heard the most ridiculous thing i have ever heard..
that women arent allowed to make arbana... so I thought it was a joke!
How ridiculous is that?
OMG, how unfair is that.. what next, we are allowed to touch cymbals?
I thougt there was neither male nor female.. galatians 3:28
i mean, priest n bishops n the pope okay, deacons was a big push, but fine, but we cannot make holy bread now?
seriously its like in ancient greece, the spartan ssociety, or other ancient societies, where women were useless and their only function was to have children...
whats up with thaT?
thats not fair, u dont choose ur gender.. omg, thats so mean...
i cant get over that.. thats so sexist...
so if you get cursed and happen to be born a woman, what then?
ahh, thats so messed up...
we cant even make arbana...
and in the bible, it says there is neither male nor female, yet male is always dominant...
look in 1john 2:12-14
How come he does not mention mothers, or young women, but he mentions fathers and young women, and of course childen because they were blessed by the Lord, but what about us.. what happens to us..
if you have the bad fortune to be a woman.. what r u to do??
Hi Every one, Let me just tell you somethig you may be know, There are deaconesses in our coptic church. There aren't that much of them now, but they can sing with the Deacons and play the cymbals, they can't enter the Mazbah, but they are there, if you are near LA ask your priest and he will tell you that there is a center downthere which helps deaconesses to learn more alhan. but for the priests thing there just hasn't been in the bible (Old or New Testament) shows that there were a women priest , so it was set from the beggining from God. so there is nothing comes from our head that we just put there in the church. it all comes from the bible. But when we go to heaven we will all be in the spirit, there won't be a gender, Don't think of the earthly measures, but with the heavenly ones.
Please pray for me,
LMary
but how come deacons can get married and deaconesses can't?
I never heard of deaconesses, not to mention whether they can or cant get married.
Also think of biological reasons. Women get menstrual cycles. What if it happened during mass service or the night before, how would a female priest react? She cant cancel the service because of that. :o
I am sure there are more reasons and Christianity was never meant to discriminate against one gender. How would you have 2 different genders unless they are different in abilities, duties, or emotionally.
Ok here comes the impossible tough question. Ready?!
Why God ....... noway I am not gonna ask this question, it is gonna spin your heads. I have been thinking about it for years and I could not find an answer. I never dared to ask my FOC.
In the Holy Bible, women were not always equal to men (for example: in the Old Testament, women were given off for marriage by their fathers rather than choosing who to marry).
There are things an ORTHODOX (Orthodox meaning straight; unchanging; unbending) Chruch cannot change.
Keep in mind that there are some things women can do that men can't. So be grateful of your gender and your situation.
Sorry if i was offensive to anyone before, i did not intend to be. My deepest apologies.
http://www.suscopts.org/literature/print.php?id=1109431684&archive=
by our church!
I prefer to look at it as differentiation rather than inequality. I really belive that such inequality doesn't exist. I like to put it this way: different genders and different responsibilities. For example: we have to admit that we all love our mothers more than our fathers. Mothers are the sweetest and most precious thing to every child. Motherhood is amazing. Now fathers sometimes get jealous but they can't change it. :D
Ok my tough question is: In the salvation plan, why God chose to come to earth as a male? Remeber that God is neither a male nor a female, so why God chose male?
Dont attemp to answer this question on your own. And plz don't post any answer unless you are sure about it.
Remember the role of woman at that time.
Even some men Like Pope Kyrillos didn't make Orban because he lived as a hermit by himself. After the mass he would go back to the windmill and pray.
But i did hear that nuns can make orban and old women too. If you want to make orban, wait until you are an old women or become a nun lol.
PK