Christ4Life, your argument is built on the fact that the Jews were waiting for the son of God and a woman would not present a threat to them. But if it was mentioned in the old testament that the daughter of God is coming and then God came as a daughter of carpenter and claimed to be the daughter of God, the Pharisees would have crucified her. And if you think about pain, Crucifixion of woman is much much much much more pain and it would be more than enough.
u know what..on the point of deaconesses...the ones u have r only training...n one of our three deaconesses here in australia told me that to become a full deaconess talkes like 15 yr + so all those deaconesses are in training but becasue they will confuse us with their stages, they prefer to call us deaconesses
The reason women seem to have a somewhat lesser role in the coptic church, and in most other churches is because men were created in God's image, and women were created in man's image, so because men were created the way that they were they should have more abilies and authoruties.
what are u talking about..we are all created in God's image...women or men...HUMANS in general were created in God's image. The reason behind us having a less role is because when Adam and Eve fell, one of God's punishment for Eve was that Adam will rule over her...therefore the male figure became the dominant figure throughout Judaism and therefore in Christianity as well.
Both men and women are created in God's image! and both Adam and Eve received punishments after the original sin! In Judaism women were not to worship with men or be involoved in any religous service, Jesus changed this as he did have many women follow Him and even spread His word. However the role of headship is given to the man in the man-woman relationship which doesnt mean hes better or more important, but has a different role. Because of this headship priesthood is allocated only to men. There are many roles within coptic church which women may be involved in! And or of equal importance. It's only a misunderstanding or misconception that the females' roles arent as important as the male ones. For example how would there be any priests if their mothers had not raised them in the church and encouraged them/ taught them the way of Christ? About the hamal thing, sounds just like a church tradition to me, and anyway, SO? theres plenty of more important services within the church then baking hamal or obana!
I would like reply, not in regard to whether or not women should or should not make arbouna, but why women are given special credit by our Lord Jesus Christ.
Just as a side note--the function of creating the holy bread is not faceted on a singular process. In order to make the leavened bread you need the dough. In order to get the dough you need transportation. In order to have the competency and patience to get the dough and work with it every week, you need to feel socially corroborated by the church and it's members. This includes the female members of the church.
The notion that women hold no role in the creation of the arbouna is incorrect. It presumes an incoherent pre-supposition of "improtant" roles in the church
Also note,
*The only individual to recieve specific substantial recognition enmeshed with the preaching of the gospel, by Our Lord, was a woman. ---"Assuredly, I say to you, wherever this gospel is preached in the whole world, what this woman has done will also be told as a memorial to her." (Mth 26:13)----
*The first people to recieve news of the Ressurection were women, not men. Specifically, Mary Magdeline and Salome (Refer to Mark 16)
*The very conception of women was given soley as a blessed means by which Satan would be destroyed; "And I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring [a] and hers; he will crush [b] your head, and you will strike his heel." (Gen 3)
and furthermore, it was a blessing that was ultimatley substantiated through the incarnation of Jesus Christ in Saint Mary's womb.
The Lord found it fitting that only through the very temple of a woman's body could both men and women obtain salvation.
So although ;
"the head of the woman is man", "the head of every man is Christ" and "the head of Christ is God." (1 Cor 11:3)
for;
"In the Lord, however, woman is not independent of man, nor is man independent of woman[/i]. For as woman came from man, so also man is born of woman. But everything comes from God." (1 Cor 11: 11)
What went wrong with you buddy? Your initial posts were very educational, insightful, and articulate, and now you've turned into a kid? I've had to delete quite a few of your latest posts for being the very opposite of your initial posts - counter-productive and immature.
I'm hoping that this apparent contradiction is the result of some kid hijacking your username. Any future posts like this however, and you will be banned my friend.
I just found out yesterday, that women are allowed to make the eucharistic bread or "prosphora" in the Greek Orthodox Church. Does anyone know why it is different in our church?
"For a man indeed ought not to cover his head, for as much as he is the image and glory of God: but the woman is the glory of the man."
Yes woman is the GLORY of man, meaning she is his honor or beauty, so a man is proud of his woman, " Her children rise up and call her blessed; Her husband also, and he praises her: "- Proverbs 31:28
However woman is still image and likeness of God just like man is, to deny that would be to say that women are inferior to men and not equals like the muslims say.
Genesis 1:27 So God created man in His own image; in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them.
Men and women are equal... but in different ways. This was meant so that in marriage, what one lacks, the other provides.
So what if we cant be deacons or make orban... we can still serve in many other ways. Its not a big deal, and we shouldnt be debating it anyways, God has already decided khalass. In fact, I would be worried if women were becoming deacons in the orthodox church, because that would make us just as vunerable as say the Catholic church (who have women "alter servers" and are debating homosexuality)
We're orthodox, we stick to our roots. NO CHANGES, or "minor alterations" to our faith.
So what if we cant be deacons or make orban... we can still serve in many other ways. Its not a big deal, and we shouldnt be debating it anyways, God has already decided khalass. In fact, I would be worried if women were becoming deacons in the orthodox church, because that would make us just as vunerable as say the Catholic church (who have women "alter servers" and are debating homosexuality)
We're orthodox, we stick to our roots. NO CHANGES, or "minor alterations" to our faith.
Women may not have an exact designated role in the church. BUT we are allowed to be sunday school teachers, servants, we can clean the church, we can work in the finances of the church, we can work in the kitchen, we can organize church trips...we can do most things; the only restriction we have is things dealing with masses and the alter...
WHAT PRECISLEY ARE THE ROLES OF WOMEN IN THE CHURCH?
Take a careful look at every word in the question you ask.
What do you see? What precisley do you see?
I see something very significant.
I see that the definition of "Church" as holding pre-suppositions that underscore the Church as the recurrence of mere traditions on a weekly basis.
Notice that I used the term "traditions" and not liturgy, mass, sunday school etc. Specifically traditions.
The real problem is not what the role of women are in the church, but how you substantially define the church to begin with.
If you define the church as the basic re-occurances of rituals that happen once a week, then I completley agree; Women truly have no role in the church.T
The problem with such a notion, however, is that the very decision to prohibit women from specific roles (such as making arbouna, singing hymns, becoming priestesses etc) were based on the spirtuality of Christian orthodoxy not the traditions of Christian Orthodoxy.
It's not at all surprising to see why a young lady might feel completley and utterly "dispensed of" in terms of her value to the church.
But there's a much bigger picture that is apparentlymissing here. The Church, by definition, is the spirtual unification of individuals who follow and are sustained by the teachings of Jesus Christ. It is the beautifully ascribed "body" of Christ.
If you truly believe this, then in actuality, men have the exact same roles as women in the church.
Let me re-emphasie my point more clearly;
*Holding responsiblity over the the arbouna, by itself, means nothing *Holding the responsibility of a head deacon, by itself, means nothing *Holding the responsibility as sunday school teacher, by itself, means nothing.
ALL OF THESE ROLES, BY THEM THEMSELVES, MEAN NOTHING AT ALL
They are all but means for obtaining salvation, unity, and worship in Christ, for both ouresleves and, more so, for others.
Look at the bigger picture--at the largerroles of the church;
*The old men and women who need a hand every once so often; who are searching for a young person to start converstation with
*The younger generations of children who need role modles; role models who demonstrate Christian fellowship and propiety; especially in a world that promotes complete autonomy and promiscuity
*The large amount of papers, books, head-dresses, candles, pens,etc. that are scattered all over the church that, when picked up, making it look at least a square inch more cleaner then it was from the beggining.
*Most importantly, the very act fellowship that can uplift an individual in isolation, ditress, or mere boredom to a higher state of untiy with God. An act even as simple as mere smile every once so often
All of these are the much LARGER roles of the church.
For the Lord, whom even "the highest Heavens can not contain", the Head Deacon who sings a thousand hymns in one day in front of myriads of people has done as great a work as the small boy who merely picks up a piece of trash from the under the bench seat without anyone noticing.
Your point is well taken..... if you are first able to clearly define the church itslef before you take it upon yourself to define the roles within the church.
You have two basic perspectives to choose from when defining the church; the traditional and the spirtual. Yet whatever vantage point you do choose to define the chruch of God from will utimatley determine how you define your question "What roles are there in the church for women".
Considering the large implications of the issue at hand, please be sure to explicate your question focally and definitively
I anticipated that a kid hijacked your username, which is I why i was willing to give you the benefit of the doubt; i'm glad you've resolved the problem now. Keep up the excellent posts, it's great to have someone like you on the site.
"For a man indeed ought not to cover his head, for as much as he is the image and glory of God: but the woman is the glory of the man."
Yes woman is the GLORY of man, meaning she is his honor or beauty, so a man is proud of his woman, " Her children rise up and call her blessed; Her husband also, and he praises her: "- Proverbs 31:28
glory of man IF she is married to a one what if not?
This topic was very interesting to me couple of years ago, but here is my conclusion, some of you may like it and some won't, but it is a fact (through our faith).
Being a man or a woman doesn't make a difference infront of God, God doesn't look at your gender, but looks at your spirit. God loves you! God the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit (1 x 1 x 1=1) Forgives you all the time, God has been there before all times, so choosing to come on earth as a man or a woman won't make much difference to him, because he is a spirit, and so shall we be in the last day. God is a SPIRIT and we were created on his own image (spirits) and thats why how we can all have the Holy Spirit within us. sorry if I frustrated some of you by mentioning things that you know, but it was just a small reminder.
Pray for me all, May the Holy Spirit guide me and you untill the end of time,
[glow=red,2,300]to be honest marmar i was listeing to a sunday school discussion and the teacher was pointing out cons and pros of being both and the benefit... Women are treated unfairly sometimes nad YES in the bible there is nothing about that and YES again to the fact that men do sometimes come dominant, but i dont think that its that bad because God created us and he knows what's best for us so whatever he sets in plan for us will work out because men arent that great at EVERYTHING and actually no one it, but i dont think anyone is going to take away the orbana from women... its like illegal to me... It would be horrible, but i hope it doesnt happne...
EXCUSSSSEEEE MEE????? now that can never happen.... i was in church once and there were more than enough guys there and one of them was TEACHING us how to play... no way...
Comments
only made orban in the early stages of his monasticism.
PK
And if you think about pain, Crucifixion of woman is much much much much more pain and it would be more than enough.
sorry to add my two cents worth, but...
i believe that the womans ability to bear children is a form of making the orbana or hamal
we are martyrs for Christ, so we, as the sons and daughters of the church, born of the womb of the woman, are the orbana of the church
i am sure everyone here would gladly sacrifice to the best of their ability for their faith and church
isnt that what orbana is, Christ "laying His life down" for the Church?
GBU all
mg
GBU
sandra
The reason behind us having a less role is because when Adam and Eve fell, one of God's punishment for Eve was that Adam will rule over her...therefore the male figure became the dominant figure throughout Judaism and therefore in Christianity as well.
and both Adam and Eve received punishments after the original sin!
In Judaism women were not to worship with men or be involoved in any religous service, Jesus changed this as he did have many women follow Him and even spread His word. However the role of headship is given to the man in the man-woman relationship which doesnt mean hes better or more important, but has a different role.
Because of this headship priesthood is allocated only to men. There are many roles within coptic church which women may be involved in! And or of equal importance. It's only a misunderstanding or misconception that the females' roles arent as important as the male ones. For example how would there be any priests if their mothers had not raised them in the church and encouraged them/ taught them the way of Christ?
About the hamal thing, sounds just like a church tradition to me, and anyway, SO? theres plenty of more important services within the church then baking hamal or obana!
Just as a side note--the function of creating the holy bread is not faceted on a singular process. In order to make the leavened bread you need the dough. In order to get the dough you need transportation. In order to have the competency and patience to get the dough and work with it every week, you need to feel socially corroborated by the church and it's members.
This includes the female members of the church.
The notion that women hold no role in the creation of the arbouna is incorrect. It presumes an incoherent pre-supposition of "improtant" roles in the church
Also note,
*The only individual to recieve specific substantial recognition enmeshed with the preaching of the gospel, by Our Lord, was a woman.
---"Assuredly, I say to you, wherever this gospel is preached in the whole world, what this woman has done will also be told as a memorial to her." (Mth 26:13)----
*The first people to recieve news of the Ressurection were
women, not men. Specifically, Mary Magdeline and Salome (Refer to Mark 16)
*The very conception of women was given soley as a blessed means by which Satan would be destroyed;
"And I will put enmity
between you and the woman,
and between your offspring [a] and hers;
he will crush [b] your head,
and you will strike his heel." (Gen 3)
and furthermore, it was a blessing that was ultimatley substantiated through the incarnation of Jesus Christ in Saint Mary's womb.
The Lord found it fitting that only through the very
temple of a woman's body could both men and women obtain salvation.
So although ;
"the head of the woman is man", "the head of every man is Christ" and "the head of Christ is God." (1 Cor 11:3)
for;
"In the Lord, however, woman is not independent of man, nor is man independent of woman[/i]. For as woman came from man, so also man is born of woman. But everything comes from God." (1 Cor 11: 11)
God Bless,
George Mankbadi
What went wrong with you buddy? Your initial posts were very educational, insightful, and articulate, and now you've turned into a kid? I've had to delete quite a few of your latest posts for being the very opposite of your initial posts - counter-productive and immature.
I'm hoping that this apparent contradiction is the result of some kid hijacking your username. Any future posts like this however, and you will be banned my friend.
On this link you will find pictures of a woman showing how to make "prosphora."
http://www.stgeorgegreenville.org/topics/Orthodox%20Traditions/Prosphora.html
This post is not related to to the topic at hand. I wanted to apologize for any offense or disconcernment any of my previous posts may have caused.
Apperently, someone logged into my account discreetly and thought it would be somewhat comical to post unnecessary gestures.
Don't fret however, I have changed the password.
Thanks and God bless.
"For a man indeed ought not to cover his head, for as much as he is the image and glory of God: but the woman is the glory of the man."
i knew that about 8months ago and my reaction was EXACTLY the same lol
but now i just say pfff wat? then? hello? no1 has an actual RIGHT answer
it's so sad knowing that i no :-\ :'( :-X ::)
1 Corinthians 11:7
"For a man indeed ought not to cover his head, for as much as he is the image and glory of God: but the woman is the glory of the man."
Yes woman is the GLORY of man, meaning she is his honor or beauty, so a man is proud of his woman, " Her children rise up and call her blessed; Her husband also, and he praises her: "- Proverbs 31:28
However woman is still image and likeness of God just like man is, to deny that would be to say that women are inferior to men and not equals like the muslims say.
Genesis 1:27
So God created man in His own image; in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them.
So what if we cant be deacons or make orban... we can still serve in many other ways. Its not a big deal, and we shouldnt be debating it anyways, God has already decided khalass. In fact, I would be worried if women were becoming deacons in the orthodox church, because that would make us just as vunerable as say the Catholic church (who have women "alter servers" and are debating homosexuality)
We're orthodox, we stick to our roots. NO CHANGES, or "minor alterations" to our faith.
Men and women are equal... but in different ways. This was meant so that in marriage, what one lacks, the other provides.
So what if we cant be deacons or make orban... we can still serve in many other ways. Its not a big deal, and we shouldnt be debating it anyways, God has already decided khalass. In fact, I would be worried if women were becoming deacons in the orthodox church, because that would make us just as vunerable as say the Catholic church (who have women "alter servers" and are debating homosexuality)
We're orthodox, we stick to our roots. NO CHANGES, or "minor alterations" to our faith.
i have to agree wit mariann23
does that answer your question?
WHAT PRECISLEY ARE THE ROLES OF WOMEN IN THE CHURCH?
Take a careful look at every word in the question you ask.
What do you see? What precisley do you see?
I see something very significant.
I see that the definition of "Church" as holding pre-suppositions that underscore the Church as the recurrence of mere traditions on a weekly basis.
Notice that I used the term "traditions" and not liturgy, mass, sunday school etc. Specifically traditions.
The real problem is not what the role of women are in the church, but how you substantially define the church to begin with.
If you define the church as the basic re-occurances of rituals that happen once a week, then I completley agree;
Women truly have no role in the church.T
The problem with such a notion, however, is that the very decision to prohibit women from specific roles (such as making arbouna, singing hymns, becoming priestesses etc) were based on the spirtuality of Christian orthodoxy not the traditions of Christian Orthodoxy.
It's not at all surprising to see why a young lady might feel completley and utterly "dispensed of" in terms of her value to the church.
But there's a much bigger picture that is apparentlymissing here. The Church, by definition, is the spirtual unification of individuals who follow and are sustained by the teachings of Jesus Christ. It is the beautifully ascribed "body" of Christ.
If you truly believe this, then in actuality, men have the exact same roles as women in the church.
Let me re-emphasie my point more clearly;
*Holding responsiblity over the the arbouna, by itself, means nothing
*Holding the responsibility of a head deacon, by itself, means nothing
*Holding the responsibility as sunday school teacher, by itself, means nothing.
ALL OF THESE ROLES, BY THEM THEMSELVES, MEAN NOTHING AT ALL
They are all but means for obtaining salvation, unity, and worship in Christ, for both ouresleves and, more so, for others.
Look at the bigger picture--at the larger roles of the church;
*The old men and women who need a hand every once so often; who are searching for a young person to start converstation with
*The younger generations of children who need role modles; role models who demonstrate Christian fellowship and propiety; especially in a world that promotes complete autonomy and promiscuity
*The large amount of papers, books, head-dresses, candles, pens,etc. that are scattered all over the church that, when picked up, making it look at least a square inch more cleaner then it was from the beggining.
*Most importantly, the very act fellowship that can uplift an individual in isolation, ditress, or mere boredom to a higher state of untiy with God. An act even as simple as mere smile every once so often
All of these are the much LARGER roles of the church.
For the Lord, whom even "the highest Heavens can not contain", the Head Deacon who sings a thousand hymns in one day in front of myriads of people has done as great a work as the small boy who merely picks up a piece of trash from the under the bench seat without anyone noticing.
Your point is well taken..... if you are first able to clearly define the church itslef before you take it upon yourself to define the roles within the church.
You have two basic perspectives to choose from when defining the church; the traditional and the spirtual. Yet whatever vantage point you do choose to define the chruch of God from will utimatley determine how you define your question "What roles are there in the church for women".
Considering the large implications of the issue at hand, please be sure to explicate your question focally and definitively
Thanks and God Bless.
I anticipated that a kid hijacked your username, which is I why i was willing to give you the benefit of the doubt; i'm glad you've resolved the problem now. Keep up the excellent posts, it's great to have someone like you on the site.
I appreciate the beneficence and patience.
May God bless.
glory of man IF she is married to a one what if not?
if man is the glory of God, and woman is the glory of man, then woman, automatically, is the glory of God.
This topic was very interesting to me couple of years ago, but here is my conclusion, some of you may like it and some won't, but it is a fact (through our faith).
Being a man or a woman doesn't make a difference infront of God, God doesn't look at your gender, but looks at your spirit. God loves you! God the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit (1 x 1 x 1=1) Forgives you all the time, God has been there before all times, so choosing to come on earth as a man or a woman won't make much difference to him, because he is a spirit, and so shall we be in the last day. God is a SPIRIT and we were created on his own image (spirits) and thats why how we can all have the Holy Spirit within us. sorry if I frustrated some of you by mentioning things that you know, but it was just a small reminder.
Pray for me all,
May the Holy Spirit guide me and you untill the end of time,
LMary
Hope I HELPED[/glow]
OMG, how unfair is that.. what next, we arent allowed to touch cymbals?
i hate to make you more angry but u cant (well no prefferd) to play the symnols in the church if there is a man or deacon...in the church....