thats correct, however, god has assignmed women to more demanding tasks. for example, helping the sick, cleaning the church, teaching usnday school. the role of a decon was allocated to men
deaconesses are female deacons but they dont actually serve abouna in a mass like a deacon. they are simply nuns that serve the world
guys just wonderin did any of yall hear about the girl deaconenes or w.e it is i think its a rumor but i heard they have girl deacons in california thts wat i heard not sure though i dont think its real
[quote author=bigmak link=board=13;threadid=3161;start=0#msg47142 date=1139124800] guys just wonderin did any of yall hear about the girl deaconenes...
[quote author=50Centupinhereyo link=board=13;threadid=3161;start=0#msg47231 date=1139193041] bc they get their periods and its bad for a deacon to get a period
i don't think so. how is it BAD. because of periods, women are not to enter the alter (i mean the main alter where the secrifice is brought) AND it's not the primary reason. and it doesn't effect the women in our church much except when a woman give birth. so than she needs to wait 40 days if she gave birth to a male or 80 days if she gave birth to a girl before taking communion.
like it was said before, deacons are different than deaconess. different responsebilties and different duties for each.i don't think it's HARD to understand this. st Paul says each ones responsebility in the church we just need to follow them. and it's still not hard because in our secioty today, every one have have responsebilitiesssss. [glow=red,2,300]MEN AND WOMEN[/glow]. and they should never be the same. if they did the same things exactly the same, than y would there be MALE and FAMALE. :)
[quote author=Christ4Life link=board=13;threadid=3161;start=0#msg47219 date=1139187490] hey i wanna ask a question about something... do you have to be a certain age to be a deaconess?
yea- u must have finished your full tertiary education (i.e college) and be working because similar to a nun, u give up everything so they want 2 c that u are leaving the world and its evil (lusts, money etc) so i think the age is round 23ish lol
Are deaconesses actually recognized by the Coptic Orthodox Church? I have read in the one of St. Paul's epistles that this woman was a deaconess. But I can't remember her name.
It is the best thing in the world to serve God. Serving God could be in multiple ways and the church teaches us our rolls and responsibilities. For example like someone said Phoebe was serving St Paul, she even wrote down his some of his letters. Meanwhile, St. Paul himself said that the women’s voice should not be heard loud in the church, and for the women to cover her head. There were multiple women following Christ and they even were there at the cross, however his decibels were all men. God give each one of us the service that fits best. God just wants you to serve him in anyway you can while you follow the rules.
A real deacon, is someone who is fully consacrated, just like a deaconess, they consacrate their lives fully to service, and live a celibate life.
"deacons" those we see serving in the chorus or altar during services are not real deacons...they are only chanters (epsaltos) or readers (oghnostos)
St Paul teaches us also : "A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent." (2 Tim 2: 11-12)
"deacons" those we see ONLY serving in the chorus or altar during services are not real deacons... I think what you asking here is Deacons should do a lot more than only serving in the chorus and alter. Chanters (epsaltos) and readers (oghnostos) are surly Deacons.
[quote author=salsoul link=board=13;threadid=3161;start=15#msg47396 date=1139349670] A real deacon, is someone who is fully consacrated, just like a deaconess, they consacrate their lives fully to service, and live a celibate life.
"deacons" those we see serving in the chorus or altar during services are not real deacons...they are only chanters (epsaltos) or readers (oghnostos)
you are rit, but there is still generla rules for deacons. and when i say deacons i mean ALL RANKS. let's not get in to the responsibilites of each rank. it would be like another big topic. it's like saying Clergy. Clergy means, Bishops (includes archbishops, metrobolitens, and normal bishops), Preists ( hegumens and normal preists), and deacons (chanters, archchanter (rarly granted for muallimin and mostly not granted anymore) readers, subdeacons, full deacons, and archdeacons. so you can't say that a chanter or a reader is not from the clergy. same with deacons. you can't diffir between a chanter and a reader except in their duties. i'll do a post about ALL the DUTIES soon.
[quote author=salsoul link=board=13;threadid=3161;start=15#msg47396 date=1139349670] A real deacon, is someone who is fully consacrated, just like a deaconess, they consacrate their lives fully to service, and live a celibate life.
"deacons" those we see serving in the chorus or altar during services are not real deacons...they are only chanters (epsaltos) or readers (oghnostos)
St Paul teaches us also : "A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent." (2 Tim 2: 11-12)
i know that this is off topic but does that mean that women are lower than men. ??? >:(
[quote author=MarMar91 link=board=13;threadid=3161;start=15#msg47435 date=1139367582] nope, it just means that generally, like in marriage, the man is supposed to have the autority and be the head of all, but it also stresses equality saying that women came from man, but man comes from women.. wait can you rephrase that i don't understand sorry :-\
[quote author=copticross link=board=13;threadid=3161;start=15#msg47438 date=1139368953] [quote author=MarMar91 link=board=13;threadid=3161;start=15#msg47435 date=1139367582] nope, it just means that generally, like in marriage, the man is supposed to have the autority and be the head of all, but it also stresses equality saying that women came from man, but man comes from women.. wait can you rephrase that i don't understand sorry :-\
copticross , you don't have to understand anything. MarMar91, the verse that was given before was for marriage, but in the same time it is wrong for the whole topic we are speaking about right now.
deacons' duty is to NOT HAVE ATHURITY over weman or anything. a deacon duty is to SERVE exactly like deaconesses. the only different is that they are higher in ranking. again, they do not have athurty in serving except if they were trusted with a specil service.
Before i say anything about the duties of deaconesses, women in general are respected in our COC. They were never less or more than men. to prove that, St.Mary was a women and she is our highest saint and intercesser, and of coure the Theotokos, the mother of God. This doesn't make women higher than man but it just gives honor to women and also how our GOD was incarnate of a WOMAN.
i think it's time to bring this topic to an end. to much confusion is going on. basicly it's (according to what i was taught): [glow=red,2,300]-: Back in time Deaconesses were either virgins, or widows who were over 60 yrs old. - They use to serve the Bishops and the preists in certain ways. - Deaconesses were succesful and they were recognized for their good deeds, manners, and good work. - First Deaconess was St. Tekla from Iconia who was consecrate by St. Paul himself. -: The consecration of Deaconess happends WITHOUT THE LAYING OF THE HANDS (BIG differnce between Deaconess and Deacons) after Matins of The Divine Liturgy. - There is two ranks of Deaconess, suddeaconess, and deaconess. - A subdeaconess is promote to be a deaconess atleast after 5 years of her consecration.[/glow] [center](All these information are Mostly from Fr. Tadros Yacoub teachings or H.G. Bishop Mettaos)[/center]
Just to make it clear to everyone, Our Orthodox Church is a Solid Doctrine. Which means that if our doctrine says somthing, we shouldn't try to change or may be try to find a back door to get what we want OR mix our opinions with it. The Rules are the same that's why we are ORTHODOX which means Stay The Same. Heb 13:8 - [glow=red,2,300]Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today, and forever. [/glow] And US, our rules, rites, and dogmas will to, FOREVER.
I always think back of how kids are so obedient that if you just tell them what to do they would just do it. So lets just be obedient to Christ's Pride and our mother, THE CHURCH to guide us to the heavenly gain.
i didin't mention anything about how deaconesses are different from deacons. i think we should learn the duties of a deacon first (with all the ranks) and than we can compare. :)
The part in the Bible about Phoebe: Romans 16: 1,2 where St. Paul calls Pheobe a "sister", an equal.
minagir, where does it say that deacons are higher in ranking than deaconesses?
Saint Mary, being human is the highest of all humans (excluding Jesus, since His "divinity parted not from His humanity", so although He was completely in human form, He is still God and above ALL). She is even above the Cherubim and Seraphim; she is Second in Heaven. She is The Second Heaven (ask me to explain if anyone doesn't understand). No other human has been able to attain such a rank as she was able to attain, and she is female. Not even David the king, whose heart God compared to His own, nor Saints John the Baptist or Beloved attained a rank as high as Saint Mary's. Think about that.
Some may say that Jesus came in the form of a male, so males are higher. Although this is probably not the only reason why Jesus came as a male, it is still valid: If He had come as a female, do you think that anyone of that time period would have listened to Him?
[quote author=Gods kid link=board=13;threadid=3161;start=30#msg54029 date=1146788448] The part in the Bible about Phoebe: Romans 16: 1,2 where St. Paul calls Pheobe a "sister", an equal.
minagir, where does it say that deacons are higher in ranking than deaconesses?
Gods kid, in our cur COC we have ranks for everything. in clergy we have ranking. you have deacons, priests, Bishops in ranking from low to high. now with deacons, there is 5 or u can say 6 ranks. every one is HIGHER than the other one. deaconesses when they are ordainded, there is NO laying of hands. that's one thing. and also if you don't kno, a deacon is in fact higher in ranking than the other believers. and also about deaconesses, please read ALL the posts before about the diffrences between both deaconesses and deaocn.
Saint Mary, being human is the highest of all humans (excluding Jesus, since His "divinity parted not from His humanity", so although He was completely in human form, He is still God and above ALL). She is even above the Cherubim and Seraphim; she is Second in Heaven. She is The Second Heaven (ask me to explain if anyone doesn't understand). No other human has been able to attain such a rank as she was able to attain, and she is female. Not even David the king, whose heart God compared to His own, nor Saints John the Baptist or Beloved attained a rank as high as Saint Mary's. Think about that.
i don't see your point. YES ST. Mary is in fact the highest saint and human person that came from on earth. also she is my personal intercesser. She is The Second Heaven, yes, does that make ALL women second heavens for Christ. we say in the wednesday theotokeia: The Father looked from heaven, and found no one like you, He sent His only-begotten, who came and took flesh from you. so there is no one like St. Mary in heaven or on earth. the idea of including St. Mary's blessedness in this post does not support anything that have to do with deaconesses. may be women in general but it doesn't prove anything in the different ranking. basicly St. Mary just BLESSES first mankind in general, and than women. that's of course is differnt than what was she or what else she did for our salvation.
PLEASE read the posts from before to know more about deaconesses.
Some may say that Jesus came in the form of a male, so males are higher. Although this is probably not the only reason why Jesus came as a male, it is still valid: If He had come as a female, do you think that anyone of that time period would have listened to Him?
am sorry, but people at that time didn't listen to Him anyway even with great uncountable mircles he did.
God's Kid, if you have any more quesions, plese pm me.
u keep asking what's Gods kid point, but what i want to know is.... what's YOUR point?? ya3ny 3awez te2ol eh belzabt? en el regalah a3lah min el setat?? that deacons have greater faith than other believers? if that is your opinion, let me tell you my brother that KOL DAH KALAM FAREGH!!!!! you think God looks at what rank you have in the church?? God ONLY looks at a man's heart! guys, you can be deacons and chant songs and praises lel sob7 w'7esokoh yetnebe7, but if your hearts are not with God, and if you don't have good intentions, then kol dah.. fee el bye bye!!! all this goes down the drain. i am waiting for ur reply, minagir, cause i have more to say. however, i want you to CLARIFY your opinion... i really didn't understand ur point.
[quote author=filobateer link=board=13;threadid=3161;start=30#msg54038 date=1146799702] u keep asking what's Gods kid point, but what i want to know is.... what's YOUR point?? ya3ny 3awez te2ol eh belzabt? en el regalah a3lah min el setat?? that deacons have greater faith than other believers? if that is your opinion, let me tell you my brother that KOL DAH KALAM FAREGH!!!!! you think God looks at what rank you have in the church?? God ONLY looks at a man's heart! guys, you can be deacons and chant songs and praises lel sob7 w'7esokoh yetnebe7, but if your hearts are not with God, and if you don't have good intentions, then kol dah.. fee el bye bye!!! all this goes down the drain. i am waiting for ur reply, minagir, cause i have more to say. however, i want you to CLARIFY your opinion... i really didn't understand ur point.
i don't have any point to make, i was just answering God's kid. he asked me why and i told him. and am not saying men are batter than women and you are right, God will not look at what rank you have in the church but he would look at your heart and also, he's the ONLY ONE who can. so let us who live on earth worry about the tradetion and rites our father (apostles gave us), and let God worry about our hearts latter in the second life. (or should i say let ourself be prepared).
Comments
deaconesses are female deacons but they dont actually serve abouna in a mass like a deacon. they are simply nuns that serve the world
guys just wonderin did any of yall hear about the girl deaconenes...
deaconesses are girls ::)
and its bad for a deacon to get a period
bc they get their periods
and its bad for a deacon to get a period
i don't think so. how is it BAD. because of periods, women are not to enter the alter (i mean the main alter where the secrifice is brought) AND it's not the primary reason. and it doesn't effect the women in our church much except when a woman give birth. so than she needs to wait 40 days if she gave birth to a male or 80 days if she gave birth to a girl before taking communion.
like it was said before, deacons are different than deaconess. different responsebilties and different duties for each.i don't think it's HARD to understand this. st Paul says each ones responsebility in the church we just need to follow them. and it's still not hard because in our secioty today, every one have have responsebilitiesssss. [glow=red,2,300]MEN AND WOMEN[/glow]. and they should never be the same. if they did the same things exactly the same, than y would there be MALE and FAMALE. :)
hey i wanna ask a question about something... do you have to be a certain age to be a deaconess?
yea- u must have finished your full tertiary education (i.e college) and be working because similar to a nun, u give up everything so they want 2 c that u are leaving the world and its evil (lusts, money etc) so i think the age is round 23ish lol
our deaconsesses here are in their mid-lite 20s
Are deaconesses actually recognized by the Coptic Orthodox Church? I have read in the one of St. Paul's epistles that this woman was a deaconess. But I can't remember her name.
"deacons" those we see serving in the chorus or altar during services are not real deacons...they are only chanters (epsaltos) or readers (oghnostos)
St Paul teaches us also :
"A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent." (2 Tim 2: 11-12)
"deacons" those we see ONLY serving in the chorus or altar during services are not real deacons...
I think what you asking here is Deacons should do a lot more than only serving in the chorus and alter.
Chanters (epsaltos) and readers (oghnostos) are surly Deacons.
A real deacon, is someone who is fully consacrated, just like a deaconess, they consacrate their lives fully to service, and live a celibate life.
"deacons" those we see serving in the chorus or altar during services are not real deacons...they are only chanters (epsaltos) or readers (oghnostos)
you are rit, but there is still generla rules for deacons. and when i say deacons i mean ALL RANKS. let's not get in to the responsibilites of each rank. it would be like another big topic.
it's like saying Clergy. Clergy means, Bishops (includes archbishops, metrobolitens, and normal bishops), Preists ( hegumens and normal preists), and deacons (chanters, archchanter (rarly granted for muallimin and mostly not granted anymore) readers, subdeacons, full deacons, and archdeacons.
so you can't say that a chanter or a reader is not from the clergy. same with deacons. you can't diffir between a chanter and a reader except in their duties. i'll do a post about ALL the DUTIES soon.
A real deacon, is someone who is fully consacrated, just like a deaconess, they consacrate their lives fully to service, and live a celibate life.
"deacons" those we see serving in the chorus or altar during services are not real deacons...they are only chanters (epsaltos) or readers (oghnostos)
St Paul teaches us also :
"A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent." (2 Tim 2: 11-12)
i know that this is off topic but does that mean that women are lower than men. ??? >:(
nope, it just means that generally, like in marriage, the man is supposed to have the autority and be the head of all, but it also stresses equality saying that women came from man, but man comes from women..
wait can you rephrase that i don't understand sorry :-\
[quote author=MarMar91 link=board=13;threadid=3161;start=15#msg47435 date=1139367582]
nope, it just means that generally, like in marriage, the man is supposed to have the autority and be the head of all, but it also stresses equality saying that women came from man, but man comes from women..
wait can you rephrase that i don't understand sorry :-\
copticross , you don't have to understand anything.
MarMar91,
the verse that was given before was for marriage, but in the same time it is wrong for the whole topic we are speaking about right now.
deacons' duty is to NOT HAVE ATHURITY over weman or anything. a deacon duty is to SERVE exactly like deaconesses. the only different is that they are higher in ranking. again, they do not have athurty in serving except if they were trusted with a specil service.
Before i say anything about the duties of deaconesses, women in general are respected in our COC. They were never less or more than men. to prove that, St.Mary was a women and she is our highest saint and intercesser, and of coure the Theotokos, the mother of God. This doesn't make women higher than man but it just gives honor to women and also how our GOD was incarnate of a WOMAN.
i think it's time to bring this topic to an end. to much confusion is going on. basicly it's (according to what i was taught):
[glow=red,2,300]-: Back in time Deaconesses were either virgins, or widows who were over 60 yrs old.
- They use to serve the Bishops and the preists in certain ways.
- Deaconesses were succesful and they were recognized for their good deeds, manners, and good work.
- First Deaconess was St. Tekla from Iconia who was consecrate by St. Paul himself.
-: The consecration of Deaconess happends WITHOUT THE LAYING OF THE HANDS (BIG differnce between Deaconess and Deacons) after Matins of The Divine Liturgy.
- There is two ranks of Deaconess, suddeaconess, and deaconess.
- A subdeaconess is promote to be a deaconess atleast after 5 years of her consecration.[/glow]
[center](All these information are Mostly from Fr. Tadros Yacoub teachings or H.G. Bishop Mettaos)[/center]
Just to make it clear to everyone, Our Orthodox Church is a Solid Doctrine. Which means that if our doctrine says somthing, we shouldn't try to change or may be try to find a back door to get what we want OR mix our opinions with it. The Rules are the same that's why we are ORTHODOX which means Stay The Same.
Heb 13:8 -
[glow=red,2,300]Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today, and forever. [/glow]
And US, our rules, rites, and dogmas will to, FOREVER.
I always think back of how kids are so obedient that if you just tell them what to do they would just do it. So lets just be obedient to Christ's Pride and our mother, THE CHURCH to guide us to the heavenly gain.
i didin't mention anything about how deaconesses are different from deacons. i think we should learn the duties of a deacon first (with all the ranks) and than we can compare. :)
minagir, where does it say that deacons are higher in ranking than deaconesses?
Saint Mary, being human is the highest of all humans (excluding Jesus, since His "divinity parted not from His humanity", so although He was completely in human form, He is still God and above ALL). She is even above the Cherubim and Seraphim; she is Second in Heaven. She is The Second Heaven (ask me to explain if anyone doesn't understand). No other human has been able to attain such a rank as she was able to attain, and she is female. Not even David the king, whose heart God compared to His own, nor Saints John the Baptist or Beloved attained a rank as high as Saint Mary's. Think about that.
Some may say that Jesus came in the form of a male, so males are higher. Although this is probably not the only reason why Jesus came as a male, it is still valid: If He had come as a female, do you think that anyone of that time period would have listened to Him?
The part in the Bible about Phoebe: Romans 16: 1,2 where St. Paul calls Pheobe a "sister", an equal.
minagir, where does it say that deacons are higher in ranking than deaconesses?
Gods kid,
in our cur COC we have ranks for everything. in clergy we have ranking. you have deacons, priests, Bishops in ranking from low to high. now with deacons, there is 5 or u can say 6 ranks. every one is HIGHER than the other one. deaconesses when they are ordainded, there is NO laying of hands. that's one thing. and also if you don't kno, a deacon is in fact higher in ranking than the other believers. and also about deaconesses, please read ALL the posts before about the diffrences between both deaconesses and deaocn.
i don't see your point. YES ST. Mary is in fact the highest saint and human person that came from on earth. also she is my personal intercesser.
She is The Second Heaven, yes, does that make ALL women second heavens for Christ.
we say in the wednesday theotokeia:
The Father looked from heaven, and found no one like you, He sent His only-begotten, who came and took flesh from you.
so there is no one like St. Mary in heaven or on earth. the idea of including St. Mary's blessedness in this post does not support anything that have to do with deaconesses. may be women in general but it doesn't prove anything in the different ranking. basicly St. Mary just BLESSES first mankind in general, and than women. that's of course is differnt than what was she or what else she did for our salvation.
PLEASE read the posts from before to know more about
deaconesses. am sorry, but people at that time didn't listen to Him anyway even with great uncountable mircles he did.
God's Kid, if you have any more quesions, plese pm me.
guys, you can be deacons and chant songs and praises lel sob7 w'7esokoh yetnebe7, but if your hearts are not with God, and if you don't have good intentions, then kol dah.. fee el bye bye!!!
all this goes down the drain. i am waiting for ur reply, minagir, cause i have more to say. however, i want you to CLARIFY your opinion... i really didn't understand ur point.
u keep asking what's Gods kid point, but what i want to know is.... what's YOUR point?? ya3ny 3awez te2ol eh belzabt? en el regalah a3lah min el setat?? that deacons have greater faith than other believers? if that is your opinion, let me tell you my brother that KOL DAH KALAM FAREGH!!!!! you think God looks at what rank you have in the church?? God ONLY looks at a man's heart!
guys, you can be deacons and chant songs and praises lel sob7 w'7esokoh yetnebe7, but if your hearts are not with God, and if you don't have good intentions, then kol dah.. fee el bye bye!!!
all this goes down the drain. i am waiting for ur reply, minagir, cause i have more to say. however, i want you to CLARIFY your opinion... i really didn't understand ur point.
i don't have any point to make, i was just answering God's kid. he asked me why and i told him. and am not saying men are batter than women and you are right, God will not look at what rank you have in the church but he would look at your heart and also, he's the ONLY ONE who can. so let us who live on earth worry about the tradetion and rites our father (apostles gave us), and let God worry about our hearts latter in the second life. (or should i say let ourself be prepared).
aho dah el kalam el tamam!! ;D sa7 kidah! :)
salam :)