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Is it called Mass or Litugry?!?!?!?
I have another question...What is more appropriate for us to call the Liturgy/Mass, Liturgy or Mass? and Why? and What's the difference? Thank you
Khristos Anesti
Khristos Anesti
Comments
Forever,
Coptic Servent
When both the terms Mass and Liturgy are etymologically analysed, that is to say, the history of the development and hence the semantic implications of these words, according to the language that so produced them (Latin in regard to the former and Greek in regard to the latter) are analysed, we find that both are valid.
The term Mass emphasises the Eucharistic Liturgy and, whereas the term Liturgy is more general in that it accounts for the ministerial nature of certain services of which the Eucharistic Liturgy (Mass) is one. In this sense, we attend the Liturgy, and the Mass is really just part of the Liturgy - it is "a" liturgical service of many.
So although the term Mass is not really part of our vocabulary (which never really made use of Latin terms or concepts), there is nothing really inappropriate about its usage, as long as it is applied correctly in relation to one particular aspect of the Liturgy. To regard the two terms as synonymous or interchangeable would indeed be an error.
I heard this from a Priest!!!
As i've already explained, the term Mass is fine if used specifically with respect to the Eucharistic Liturgy. The only flaw with the term Mass is its insufficiency in accounting for the general and fundamental nature of the entire service. Its implications are too specific. That is all.
anyways.........
The ultimate point is however, that there is nothing wrong with the term Mass in and of itself. One simply needs to understand the semantic implications of the term and consequently the restrictive context in which it may be applied within the framework of Orthodox worship.
i see you seem to be very passionate so i wont argue any further
i will only add that if the term
"mass insufficient is simply that its usage is not inappropriate per se, but rather that its appropriateness is limited to certain contexts."
then why use it? shouldnt we aim to use the more appropriate and complete term?
my argument if you read closely is not that the term mass is 'bad' but that we should use the term liturgy instead.
From the Greek word "liturgeous" , which can be transliterated as "leitourgia," meaning "a public work," a liturgy comprises a prescribed religious ceremony
Therefore it is appropriate to use the word liturgy because it is related to the copts
Mass on the other hand is the term used for the celebration of the Eucharist in the various liturgical rites of the Catholic Church, the Anglo-Catholic tradition of Anglicanism, and in some Lutheran regions which are largely High Church: the main Lutheran service is still known as "the Mass" in Scandinavian countries.
pray for me
lol
i think we should incourage the word litury...by it doesnt mean we should rule out mass...it doesnt really matter to tell the truth ...
but yes..we encourage liturgy...
lol...r u happy krestina..i went on tasbeha.org and agreed wif u..like u told me too :P :P :P :P :P :P :P :P and the same way u told HArdyakka..to post up how he agrees wif u...
maybe u r taking it tooooo serious..lol..U R GOING TO BE ANNOiED WIF ME I KNOW>>>AND I AM NOT DELETEING IT!!!!!!! :P :P :P :P :P
anyways..as i stated earlier..we encourage Liturgy and not rule out mass..u even sad it urself "QOTE well Abouna said we should try to encourage more people to use the word liturgy and if the word mass is insufficient then why use it just use liturgy!!!
"quote...
so why are u contradicting urself????wow u r bad at what u do best!!!!!!
i will cease to write any more replies on this issue what i have said in my message will suffice to represent my opinion on the matter and no further arguments will be entered into.
I can see that you are somewhat confused so i suggest that you take some time out and think about your reply before you write it and maybe take some time to form your opinion.
Thankyou
I do admit that in common and contemporary language, the term Liturgy has simply adopted a definition synonymous to "Eucharistic Liturgy" specifically i.e. Mass. In the end however, it's just plain sematics since the traditional Latin Mass itself is similarly structured to the Orthodox Eucharistic Liturgy, generally speaking (i.e. consists of The Liturgy of The Word + the Liturgy of the Eucharist).
Again, thank you so much Iqbal for your replies. They are clear, factual, and precise. What I also like about them is that they're right to the point - no beating around the bush!! And these kind of replies are most efficient and advantageous to all those who read it. I've never thought of that issue, whether it should be called Mass or Liturgy, but.... u learn something new everyday- and I did! ;D ;D
salam :)
Fibo
Because technically speaking (with exclusive consideration to semantics), if you were to claim to have attended the Liturgy, this wouldnt necessarily mean you attended the service that we now know as the Liturgy i.e. the one that begins with the Offeratory and ends with the Final Blessing. It could in fact mean that you attended the Asheya (vespers) or some other service. The history for the term Mass within the Latin rite however, has seen the term only ever applied to the Eucharistic Liturgy.
So, Liturgy refers to Vespers, Tasbeha, Matins, and the what we know as the Liturgy(Preporatory, Offeratory, Liturgy of the Word, Liturgy of the Eucharist), right?
So, Liturgy refers to Vespers, Tasbeha, Matins, and the what we know as the Liturgy(Preporatory, Offeratory, Liturgy of the Word, Liturgy of the Eucharist), right?
The Greek word "litourgia" simply means "work of the people". In this sense it can refer to any of the services. However, the word is normally used to refer only to "what we know as the Liturgy(Preporatory, Offeratory, Liturgy of the Word, Liturgy of the Eucharist)"
[quote author=Gods kid link=board=1;threadid=3841;start=15#msg54472 date=1147311320]
So, Liturgy refers to Vespers, Tasbeha, Matins, and the what we know as the Liturgy(Preporatory, Offeratory, Liturgy of the Word, Liturgy of the Eucharist), right?
The Greek word "litourgia" simply means "work of the people". In this sense it can refer to any of the services. However, the word is normally used to refer only to "what we know as the Liturgy(Preporatory, Offeratory, Liturgy of the Word, Liturgy of the Eucharist)"
Dear all
my view on this particular topic is as per Iqbal's (thank you Iqbal)
but i would like to just point out that "the liturgy" does not only refer to Liturgy as quoted above, because as Orthodox people we believe that the matins and vespers ARE indeed part of the liturgy.
To make it clearer, look at what happens on Glorious Saturday (The day before we all go to church to celebrate the Easter liturgy), we go through the praises and Revelations, but we also go through vespers and matins, tasbeha, "Preporatory, Offeratory, Liturgy of the Word and Liturgy of the Eucharist", (to put it in your terms).
This however all encompasses the term liturgy because it is all inter-related and IS part of the liturgy and should be attended.
please forgive me and GBU all
mg
There is no such thing as a Catholic and Coptic (in the sense of the Coptic faith as opposed to language) word.
I agree with Filobateer, because I was raised on saying Liturgy, and plus our Abouna told us that Liturgy is coptic, Mass is catholic, therefore we should use the proper statement as in Liturgy, I can't change that, everyone has different sources!
Forever,
Coptic Servent
Ok so im getting that the argument is kind of mass=catholic and liturgy=coptic, well don't we say in vespers, matins, and the liturgy/mass Pray for the peace of the one holy catholic and apostolic orthodox church of God...so am i interpreting the catholic part wrong??
Liturgy is the form your supposed to say, because first off, there are 3 liturgies, correct? I'm guessing all they have in the Catholic church is 1 mass, and our Liturgies are-Liturgy of St. Basil, Liturgy of St. Georgery, and Liturgy of St. Cyril! I really don't know anything about the Catholic Mass, many people told me that Liturgy is the proper way of saying mass, because Mass is Catholic, and Liturgy is Coptic, but it's alright, because almost everyone refers to a Liturgy as a mass, but I don't think Catholics have Verspers!
Forever,
Coptic Servent
Well I'm not saying that they do have Vespers, I'm just saying in our Vespers, Matins, and Mass/Liturgy we say, "Pray for the peace of the one holy Catholic and Apostolic Orthodox Church of God." So what I'm saying since we metion Catholic in the Vespers, etc., then it can be appropriate to use mass, or am I interpreting the Catholic part wrong...that wa my question...sorry for the confusion...hope this is clearer...GB
You also have to remember mtanious32 that it says "Pray for perfect peace, love and the Holy Catholic and Apostolic ORTHODOX church of God" there are different Catholic churches!
Forever,
Coptic Servent
"Orthodox" refers to the the traditional view, look up the exact definition, even though it does indeed refer to also the Orthodox belief system.
"Catholic" refers to a term meaning ALL CHRISTIANS, and the word can be interchanged with universal, where you will find some translations to say as such.
This particular response does not differentiate between Catholicism and Orthodoxy.
GBU
mg
I already explained to you that technically speaking, the term liturgy is a general term referring to all Church services. It refers to vespers, matins, the baptismal service, the marriage service, and just about any other Church service. This is a basic fact you will discover upon reading just about any basic history book on Orthodox worship. I already explained to you that the term Mass is simply a latin term generally denoting the Eucharistic Liturgy, so your above statement doesn't make sense. If you are referring to Eucharistic Liturgical Rites, you will find that the Latin Church in fact has much more than us. First of all, as I already explained to you, the terms Liturgy and Mass are not synonymous. Liturgy is more general than the term Mass. Technically speaking, "Eucharistic Liturgy" would be synonymous to the term Mass. The former may be more appropriate in reference to Orthodox worship in consideration of the fact that our Church does not use Latin whilst the term Mass is Latin and taken from the Latin dismissal of the Eucharistic Liturgy. But since there is nothing inherently wrong with Latin per se, its merely an issue of using terms that better fit the cultural context of each Church.
Whilst the Roman Church lays claim to being the Catholic Church, it certainly is not. As such, it is always appropriate to refer to the Latin Church as the Roman Catholic Church, rather than with the open-blanket "Catholic Church" title. The former may imply, according to the qualification in question, that the Universality of the Latin Church is restricted to the jurisdiction under Rome, which is in fact in schism, rather than being of the genuine Catholic Church.