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what would u prefer

mnc_hnnmnc_hnn
edited December 1969 in Hymns Discussion
i dont know because i don feel really like praying/praising when i say things in coptic BCOZ i don understand it so what do u think???

Comments

  • Unknown
    In my church we have books that will translate the words in both languages arabic and english! Maybe you could ask for translations!

    Forever,
    Coptic Servent
  • Mina GhattasMina Ghattas
    personaly i think we should pray more in coptic since its the churchs native language when your done payin/praising in coptic just read the trasnslation in arabic or coptic ;)
  • Andrew SaadAndrew Saad
    I prefer in english because I can understand it, but I can do it in any language and read the english translation so it doesn't matter what language im praying/praising in as long as i know the meaning. No matter what language it is in it's all praise to God.
  • Unknown
    Arabic..I understand arabic very well..but not to mention that arabic taraneem are so much deeper than english ones..most of the time, english is just a translation of arabic..and I'm not into protestant taraneem..arabic is just beautiful..

    But if you don't understand it, I suppose it would be better to sing something you understand..but meaning can be sought easily now..coptic is translated as well as arabic so if something is beautiful, we can learn the meaning and continue to sing it..
  • Christ4LifeChrist4Life
    If I have a translation book, which I usually do, I prefer coptic. It is the ancient language of God, and it is the best language to send up prayers in. If its a tasbeha I prefer english because its easier for me to understand and say along. Liturgies however, are amazing in arabic as well as english as coptic... ;D
  • Unknown
    I can read anything. I guess I just like to sing it and then I can read the translations later. Or while they do something in between, I'll read it. I can sing it in Arabic. If it's an uncommon sing then I won't and I might understand most of it, but I'd have to have it written out cause I cannot read Arabic that fast.

    love lots,
    CopticChica21
  • mnc_hnnmnc_hnn
    it's like i feel sumtimes that coptic is ununderstandable if that's a word lol so even if i know nethin in coptic (VERY rarely) i'd be a bit bored or even day dream!

    i cant say that coptic is so amazing and emotional but we cant pray the entire mass and all otha prayers in coptic ppl'd feel misrable when they dont understand coz not all ppl can meditate on the tunes on their own they need to know the words.

    what do u guys think???
  • Unknown
    Not everyone can feel miserable, we have translation books, which translates for you in the form of writing all 3 languages, arabic, coptic, and english!

    Forever,
    Coptic Servent
  • Unknown
    Same here. Well not really same here, because me and CopticServent actually attend the same church, but still same here pretty much. ;D


    love lots,
    CopticChica21
  • Jesus85Jesus85
    it seems like we're all concerned with translation which is good to know what you're saying, i mean we're not just parots repeating wae khalas! but he's Anba Raphael once said in an amazing wa3za i'll never forget. He said, it shouldn't matter what language the liturgy is sung in, we should be able to enjoy it even if it's prayed in giberish (okay, he didn't exactly say "giberish") because it's about the connection we feel to God and heaven. It's about a being purified by prayer so that we can come foreward and partake of the holy communion. I personaly love coptic and i dont even understand it, but you know what, i'm beginning to recognize some words to a point where i at least know what the hymn is about.

    (sorry for the long post) :-[
  • andrewgandrewg
    It shouldnt matter too much because if we are really into the liturgy I think we would know which part we were at no matter the language barrier.
  • spr418spr418
    i would really prefer arabic or english because when you are saying the hymn or whatever u r saying in coptic u r not gonna have time to look at the translation for it and then say the words.

    GBU
    sandra
  • Marianne87Marianne87
    A similar topic..maybe it will interest you to look into that

    http://tasbeha.org/content/community/index.php?board=1;action=display;threadid=60;start=msg202#msg202
  • mnc_hnnmnc_hnn
    this thread mentions sumthin about like when ppl come to our church they really think we r weird 'i bet!' because even though in europe or us still coptic and arabic r being used in church services and it's like ppl day dream in liturgy when they change language lol
  • mgmg
    dear mnc_hnn and all

    the coptic language is a very lovely language

    i understand your frustration and malcontent at not understanding as you pray or praise in the Church, especially during the liturgy, which usually has a lot of coptic hymns.

    But have you thought of learning coptic, naturally starting with trying to read it so you can get used to the letters, then word definitions, then grammatical sentences and then speaking the language.

    I am from Australia, and personally know of a family where their main language spoken at home is in Coptic. Of course they know english and arabic, but coptic is instilled into the.

    There is also a deacon in egypt who is of Japanese descent who speaks fluent coptic.

    I would say shame on us who do not know the coptic language, me being first, but the resources are limited.

    However, you can always start by trying to teach yourself or asking someone to teach you how to read coptic and then take it from there.

    And just to show you how deep the coptic language is, look at the very simple word
    "CHRIST-MAS"

    HH Pope Shenouda III gave a small sermon on that word...
    we know the word "CHRIST" refers to Jesus the Saviour,
    but what of the word "MAS"?
    it is a coptic word, meaning birth.

    So when you hear the word "CHRISTMAS" remember that your heritage is worldwide and many people dont even know it

    rejoice in your heritage and try to learn and understand it

    it will also give you a task to do when you have nothing else to do because every second on earth is accountable to God

    your brother in Christ

    mg
  • minatasgeelminatasgeel
    couple of years ago, a group of bishops did a big big research on ALL kind of music in the world. that included rock, rab, classic and also hymns from diffrent churchs and religions. and they tested peoples attraction (by their heart beat) to every single kind of music. and at the end, they found out that our coptic hymns are the most affective on these people even tho they do not understand what they are listening to.
    our coptic church is rich wich great heritage and one important one is our coptic hymsn that till this day is preserved.

    personaly, i would prefer praying in coptic. am sure not every one would think that way becuz me, am an alhan freak and somtimes i listen to christian song, nothing more.

    and really, like it was said before, if you really want to understand the coptic, why not look at the translation. the coptic language now are translated in MANY many laguages.

    and also what can be very helpful in churches is to have a projecter in church for the people to follow during services in church. in my church we do that almost in all liturgical services. i know that service is very helpful because the people have the 3 languages in front of them. so if abouna would pray coptic, they would follow in english or arabic. and also in a way (lol) no one would would have a "hega" for us deacons to not to pray in coptic.
  • StavroStavro
    One should be able to praise the Lord in the language he/she understands. Language and culture should never be an obstacle towards the faith, but it is the donkey Christ rides into Jerusalem to bring salvation to everybody who accepts the message.

    As such, in France, Fench should be the worshipping lanaguage, German in Germany, English in North America and Australia, and so on. If there is only one native person who attends the liturgy, we should accomodate him.

    We should do away with arabic in the land of immigration. I do not see any value of using it or learning arabic, at least from a religious point of view.

    As for Coptic, it is our culture and it has a lot of effect on promoting a sense of identity among the younger generation, but it should be used in moderation. Either extensive effort has to be geared towards teaching the language to Copts, or it should be of limited use. I personally love Coptic and love hymns in Coptic, but I do not want it to become an obstacle in evangelism.

    In any case, because most churches use translated material now, whether books or presentations, one can meditate on the words while a hymn is chanted in coptic or arabic.

    But I feel bad for new converts and catechumens who suffer from arabic liturgies. Not the apostolic way of doing things.
  • joegjoeg
    well i read coptic quite fluently so i could probably unsderstand most of wat im reading ;)
  • jmaziounjmazioun
    I agree with Stavro,
    I dont beleive anybody should be praying in a language they dont understand, just because it 'feels' spiritual.
    If we say this then we have no basis on attacking protestant churches which practice speaking in tongues of languages nobody understands.

    Read this from corrinthians, speaks about understanding what is said in the church

    "So likewise you, unless you utter by the tongue words easy to understand, how will it be known what is spoken? For you will be speaking into the air...I will pray with the spirit, and I will also pray with the understanding. I will sing with the spirit, and I will also sing with the understanding. Otherwise, if you bless with the spirit, how will he who occupies the place of the uninformed say “Amen” at your giving of thanks, since he does not understand what you say? For you indeed give thanks well, but the other is not edified. ....in the church I would rather speak five words with my understanding, that I may teach others also, than ten thousand words in a tongue"

    I think it is a shame many of what is said in some services is not even translated in english for others to follow. And personally i dont even feel comfortable following on in a translation, it is a lot better to praise God in the language you actually understand. For those who understand coptic, there is no prob for them, pray in it as much as u want, but also consider the others in the church.

    God bless
  • Marianne87Marianne87
    Well that's true that you need to consider others in the church and try to make them feel comfortable in their language as much as possible. That's what personally happens in my church, not in every part of the liturgy, but abouna tries as much as possible to go coptic, english, and arabic. The most important thing of the liturgy is said in the 3 languages. When the bible is read in every liturgy, the whole thing is said in Coptic, Arabic, then English....so no one would have an excuse not to understand. The thing is...my church is filled with a bunch of people complaning about every single thing abouna does...so everyone is constantly asking...why coptic? well my abouna is fluent in coptic and he does Phds and kind of stuff on it...so at least that's going to benefit him plus a few experts deacons. Well then why the english? well for the sake of the youth...something that should benefit them as well (not that there is a lot of youth when the bible is being read)..and lastly why the arabic? well we have old people and they come from the beginning of the liturgy...so why not consider them as well...with that being said...you can guess how many complaints abouna gets for HOW LONG the liturgy is....
    So my point is unless you really have the passion of attending the liturgy and worshipping Christ...I don't think any language should matter to you. Immigrants have to learn the language of the country they are immigrating to...so why wouldn't you do the same for the sake of Christ. You do it for the sake of a job or for every little thing...why wouldn't you do it for the sake of your spiritual life. ;)
  • minatasgeelminatasgeel
    [quote author=doit4Jesus link=board=2;threadid=3565;start=15#msg54008 date=1146748332]
    I agree with Stavro,
    I dont beleive anybody should be praying in a language they dont understand, just because it 'feels' spiritual.
    If we say this then we have no basis on attacking protestant churches which practice speaking in tongues of languages nobody understands.

    Read this from corrinthians, speaks about understanding what is said in the church

    "So likewise you, unless you utter by the tongue words easy to understand, how will it be known what is spoken? For you will be speaking into the air...I will pray with the spirit, and I will also pray with the understanding. I will sing with the spirit, and I will also sing with the understanding. Otherwise, if you bless with the spirit, how will he who occupies the place of the uninformed say “Amen” at your giving of thanks, since he does not understand what you say? For you indeed give thanks well, but the other is not edified. ....in the church I would rather speak five words with my understanding, that I may teach others also, than ten thousand words in a tongue"


    sometimes you just need to let your spirit understand, not your mind. english, arabic, french, exc.. hymns will NEVER be like coptic. the origin in the coptic language will never be replaced. right now yes we try to say everything in english in the tune of coptic but, it's still not the same.

    I think it is a shame many of what is said in some services is not even translated in english for others to follow.

    well, deacons or people who are responsible for that try to do their best in trenslating everything in the right form.

    And personally i dont even feel comfortable following on in a translation, it is a lot better to praise God in the language you actually understand. For those who understand coptic, there is no prob for them, pray in it as much as u want, but also consider the others in the church.

    i don't understand coptic, but i can read it and chant it, does that mean i don't pray in litrugy.
    like i said before, don't make understanding a big deal cause its not. it's your heart and conscience is what's important. did you read my post from before ?


    Stavro,

    As for Coptic, it is our culture and it has a lot of effect on promoting a sense of identity among the younger generation, but it should be used in moderation. Either extensive effort has to be geared towards teaching the language to Copts, or it should be of limited use. I personally love Coptic and love hymns in Coptic, but I do not want it to become an obstacle in evangelism.

    how will you become an obstacle in evangelism if you just learn and pray in your OWN language. we're copts, right?!!.

    But I feel bad for new converts and catechumens who suffer from arabic liturgies. Not the apostolic way of doing things.

    no, don't feel bad for them because trust me when i tell you that somthimes they ENVY us of what we have. and a big part of that is our great heritage of coptic hymns that they don't even understand but their hearts react to them. did you read my post from before ??
  • Gods kidGods kid
    I think that if people really wanted to pray to God, they would be able to, no matter what language Abouna is praying in.

    I personally love Coptic and think that it should be established firmer in our Churches. If people want to understand Coptic, I tnk that they should find some way of learning it.

    They should never, ever do away with Coptic in our Churches.

    For Arabic, there are those (elders for example) who only understand Arabic, and their eyes are too weak for them to read.
  • filobateer
    tesada2o ya ged3an en deh awel marah, enahardah, a3raf en "mas" (from Christmas) ma3nahah "birth" bel coptic?? ana 3al 3emoom, raghm eny fee kalemat keteera bel coptic mabafhamhash fel qodas, ela eny ba7eb gidan el loghah el qebtyah gidan... leeha ta2seer khas fee qalb w'ezon el wa7ed.

    Rabina yebarek our heritage dayman w'ye3teena baseerah menawarah w'2alb maftoo7 w'mo2men dayman. God bless you guys!

    salam :D
  • jmaziounjmazioun
    [quote author=minagir link=board=2;threadid=3565;start=15#msg54014 date=1146753239]
    sometimes you just need to let your spirit understand,


    If thats true then we shouldnt have a problem if people want to speak in tongues in the church and speak heavenly languages that nobody understands. Praising God should not be a selfish act, if you understand it spiritually, not everybody else in the church does and you need to think of them. And how about if a non beleiver walked into the church, how would he know what we are talking about? That is what St Paul is talking about in 1 corrinthians 14.

    I do not think praying to God is not a purely emotional and spritual experience, at least it does not start that way, there needs to be a degree of understanding. It is not just about 'feeling' spiritual at least it shouldnt be. It should involve spiritual prayer as well as intellectual understanding.

    1 Corinthians 14:15
    I will pray with the spirit, and I will also PRAY WITH THE UNDERSTANDING

    Psalm 47:7
    For God is the King of all the earth; SING PRAISES WITH UNDERSTANDING.

    God bless
  • mnc_hnnmnc_hnn
    the problem is what would you say if u do away with coptic in the liturgies? (for those who think so)

    1st, i can notice some awesome translations for coptic hymns in special versions that u can say them in the same tune as in coptic but it's well hard, it takes much longer and needs some1 who understand both arabic and english very well to be able to do such a hard job

    an example of these hymns r like 'mooost' of midnight praise and the 'fathers hymns' said in morning offering i guess and much more which i dont know.

    so if any of you think that the liturgy should be prayed in the language u understand, that's fine i guess if u are capable of translating all the coptic hymns with words that fit with the tune and also teaching them to the deacons and chanters in the church otherwise u will be kind of cancelling bits of the mass which means we r going to lose our coptic heritage and start a new organisation or sumthin?

    what do u think guys?

    God bless

  • Christ4LifeChrist4Life
    Come on you guys... you're acting as if the whole Divine Liturgy is said in Coptic. Eighty five percent of the Liturgy is said in either arabic or english. You can't take out Coptic completely from the Liturgies, we would lose our heritage. Did you guys forget that Coptic is the ANCIENT language of the Egyptians? Or that many martyrs died to keep this heritage and culture alive? For those of you who want the whole Liturgy in english, did you forget that there are also other people that don't understand english? Everybody has to sacrafice a little so that everybody is happy. Don't say you're "not comfterable" reading from a translation book, those books are a blessing.

    Comparing Coptic to "tongues" is most ridiculous things I have ever heard of. (Pardon me if I have offended you in any way, I in no way mean it). Coptic an ACTUAL language, in fact I know a family whose main language is Coptic. To preserve the heritage of the great and beautiful Coptic Orthodox Church, we must keep Coptic in our churches and must learn it and teach it to our children. If there is any language that truly affects the spirit, it is Coptic. Truly, you don't know what you have until you lose it. I hope that will never have to happen for us to know the true beauty of the COPTIC Church.
  • mtanious32mtanious32
    Christ4life, i think nobody could have said it any better... it is 100% true...i love coptic so much, it sounds amazing, it sounds cool, and i dont know i wish the mass/liturgy can be said a majority in coptic...because i believe the Priest's parts sound so much better in Coptic
  • jmaziounjmazioun


    You can't take out Coptic completely from the Liturgies, we would lose our heritage

    Since when did heritage have anything to do with faith? In an opportunity where losing heritage would advance the faith what would you prefer? Have you noticed that about 99.99% of people in coptic churches are egyptian? why do u think that is? It is because we have allowed our coutries tradition and heritage to become part of our faith.

    If you love the coptic language and tunes, start a coptic language and tunes club (i am not making fun), but do not make it a necessity for people to worship. Even if you want to use it in worship then fine, but why does everybody else in the coptic church have to? The church is not an institution to preserve languages or heritages, it is the congregation of beleivers here on the earth to spread the gospel of Christ and support the Christians in spriritual growth.


    there are also other people that don't understand english?

    fair enough, let them have a liturgy in their language (coptic/arabic whatever). But for the english speakers and even more the non-Christians they need an english mass and one that they will feel comfortable with.


    Comparing Coptic to "tongues" is most ridiculous things I have ever heard of. Coptic an ACTUAL language

    tongues are ACTUAL languages too (Authenically speking in tongues), they are understood by particular gifted people and angels! (This is biblical)

    And no i am not offended
    God bless u
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