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Did St. Mary go through Labour?
so
Did St Mary go through Labour
Did St Mary go through Labour
Comments
Did St Mary go through Labour
Yes, but she did so painlessly.
how do u know that?
That's what the Holy Tradition of the Church tells us.
(Thursday Theotokia V:IV)
[coptic]Vy gar etaumacf hwc nou] `apa;yc ebolqen `Viwt aumacf on kata carx apa;yc ebolqen ]par;enoc [/coptic]
For He who was born is God, born without pain from the Father, and He was also born according to the flesh, without pain from the virgin.
as for the phrase that hos erof mentioned,i think it is misunderstood.i heared a sermon by Fr. Mettias nasr where he was asked abut this phrase.he said that without pain refers to the son.he was borne from st mary without pain as he was borne from the Father without pain.
and my referance is the same theotokia last part.it is taken from the holy bible.i don`t remeber where exactly it was mentioned in the bible but i can look it up.
"Just as (the Lord) made His entrance when the doors were closed, in the same way did He come forth from the Virgin’s womb, because this virgin really and truly gave birth without pain.... Her virginity remained safe and sound."
Quoted from Fr. Tadros Malaty's St. Mary in the Orthodox Concept, p. 25.
1.O who gave birth to Christ, our True God, without the seed of man, and remained a virgin.
2.in the thursday theotokia: For he who was born is god,born without pain from the father,and he was also born according to the flesh,without pain for the virgin.
3.the virgin shall give birth to emmanuel and the rod of aaron which blossemed without planting or water is a symbol of her.the holy spirit came in and dwelt her and remained a virgin before and after birth.
mary
Conclusion: No pain
Kristina123
we say in the kiahk madeha ("I Praise The Virgin":
Sorrow was taken away: And we're comforted: Through you O, Mary: The pride of the human race: Salome witnessed: That the Virgin gave birth: She believed and confirmed: The mystery of mysteries.
sorry,i don`t agree with orthodox11 and hos erof.the church tradition teaches us that st mary gave birth of jesus with pain like any other woman.
St. Gregory of Nyssa said: "When God became known to us in the flesh, He neither received the passions of human nature, nor did the Virgin Mary suffer pain..."
From The Life of the Virgin Mary , The Theotokos, by Holy Apostles Convent (p179).
Off course she did.
we say in the kiahk madeha ("I Praise The Virgin":
Sorrow was taken away: And we're comforted: Through you O, Mary: The pride of the human race: Salome witnessed: That the Virgin gave birth: She believed and confirmed: The mystery of mysteries.
Your quote from the Kiahk mediha has no relevance to this topic. It merely confirms that St. Mary was a virgin, and that she had faith and was confirmed in that faith. What has that got to do with whether or not St. Mary experienced pain?
The only quotes in this thread that have any direct relevance to this topic, are the quotes from the Fathers provided by Orthodox11 and I (of St. Gregory of Nyssa, and St Ephraim the Syrian, respectively), and they declare that St. Mary gave birth to Christ painlessly.
also can anyone give me explaination to this part if the thursday theotokia :
i saw a miracle that appeared in heaven,a woman is closed with the sun,and the moon also ,was under her feet.
upon her head was a crown of twelve stars,she being with a child cried out in labor and in pain to give birth.
this is mary,the new heaven on earth,the sun of righteousness,shines upon us from her.
This new psalmody book from the monastery of El Baramous provides footnotes with explanations and quotations from the bible, and they quoted this prophecy i hadn't read before, and this prophecy must also be the base upon which St Ephraim and St Gregory wrote about the painfree birth of St Mary:
Isaiah 66:7-8
You will read that the sun that clothes her is Christ, and the stars are the apostles, and the moon is St John the Baptist.
ok i have a question related to this..seeing that St. Mary was a human..how come she had not to bear the sin of Humans..where when Eve ate from the Tree, a consequence to all human Kind was that there would be labour for all humans in the time of Birth..
We must bear in mind that the blessed Virgin did not concieve in a normal manner - it was done without seed - nor was the Child she bore just an ordinary child - it was the uncreated Word of God Incarnate.
To quote St Hesychios:
"The Theotokos was a woman, yet she did not suffer the pangs of childbirth because the field of marriage had not experienced the plow; the virginal vineyard was not tilled."
The Life of the Virgin Mary, the Theotokos, by Holy Apostles Convent - p.179
good question Why?
also can anyone give me explaination to this part if the thursday theotokia :
i saw a miracle that appeared in heaven,a woman is closed with the sun,and the moon also ,was under her feet.
upon her head was a crown of twelve stars,she being with a child cried out in labor and in pain to give birth.
this is mary,the new heaven on earth,the sun of righteousness,shines upon us from her.
The woman described in the Apocalypse of St. John the Theologian is not St. Maria, but the Church.
In fact, the very statment that this woman gave birth with pain shows that it is not the Holy Virgin, since she gave birth painlessly, as such great Fathers as St. Ephraem the Syrian and St. Gregory of Nyssa affirm.
"12:1-2 And a great sign appeared in the heaven: A Woman having been clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars; and being with child she was crying, travailing in childbirth, and being tormented to bring forth.
"Certain commentators have seen in this mystical woman the Most Holy Theotokos, but such outstanding commentators as St. Hippolytus, St. Methodius, and St. Andrew of Caesarea find that this is “the Church clothed in the Word of the Father, shining more brightly than the sun.” This brilliance of the sun signifies likewise that she possesses the true knowledge of God and His laws and contains His revelations. The moon under her feet is a sign of the fact that she is above everything that changes. St. Methodius considers the moon allegorically as the “faith of those cleansed of corruption by the bath, that is, baptism, since upon the moon depends the nature of moisture.”
"On her head is a crown of twelve stars that, being originally gathered together from the twelve tribes of Israel, she subsequently was guided by the twelve apostles who comprise her light-bearing glory.
"From the fact that she is in pain during childbirth, it is evident that it is incorrect to see in this woman the Most Holy Theotokos, for the giving birth from Her of the Son of God was without pain. These torments of birthgiving signify the difficulties which had to be overcome by the Church of Christ when it was being established in the world (martyrdom, the spreading of heresies). At the same time it signifies, in the explanation of St. Andrew, that “the Church is pained for each one of those who is reborn by water and the Spirit until, as the divine Apostle has said, Christ should be formed in them (Gal. 4:19). St. Methodius says, ‘The Church is pained giving rebirth from natural to spiritual men and transforming them in appearance and image in the likeness of Christ’” (St. Andrew, ch. 33). "
The Apocalypse In The Teachings of Ancient Christianity, by Archbishop Averky Taushev and Fr. Seraphim Rose
Some would argue that the woman must refer to the Blessed Virgin due to verse five which states that "...she brought forth a son, a male, who is about to shepherd all the nations with an iron rod."
The Son described is indeed Christ. However, St. Hyppolitus explains that it means that "The Church will not cease to give birth from its heard to the Word which is persecuted in the world by unbelievers."
That is “In the person of those who are baptized, the Church ceaselessly gives birth to Christ; just as, according to the Apostle, we come to the measure of the stature of the fullness of the Christ (Eph. 4:13)” (St. Andrew of Caesarea - ch. 33).
That being said, given the nature of the Apocalypse, it is possible to say that the verse could refer to both the Church and St. Maria (who is often herself used to symbolise the Church).
However, even if this is the case, it is nevertheless the Church that is being referred to when St. John speaks of birth pains.
Oh, and monmonmon if u read the rest of the theotokia you will find the explanation in the same part: part 9!!
You will read that the sun that clothes her is Christ, and the stars are the apostles, and the moon is St John the Baptist.
and it also says that this woman is virgin mary ...!!!! ??? :-\
according to what orthodox said ,she is not the virign !!!so is the epsalmody wrong ??!!!!
i also noticed that most of fathers relates pain and labor with viriginty.i amnot sure,but pain during birth has no deal with being a virgin or not.this pain is due to muscle spasms that helps getting out the baby.so why do we relate pain to virginity ?!!!!
any help please,i`m confused ??? :-\ :-\
i also noticed that most of fathers relates pain and labor with viriginty.i amnot sure,but pain during birth has no deal with being a virgin or not.this pain is due to muscle spasms that helps getting out the baby.so why do we relate pain to virginity ?!!!!
any help please,i`m confused ??? :-\ :-\
The fact that the birth was painless was not because of the Virgin's physical state of virginity, but rather because the conception was virginal - i.e. no man was involved.
Since the conception was miraculous, and not in accord with the laws of nature, so the blessed Virgin was exempt from the 'punishments' that came with a natural conception, following the expulsion from Paradise - i.e. pain during birth.
So a virgin who concieved by means of some kind of IVF treatment, although physically still a virgin, she would suffer pains during the birth - since the conception was subject to the laws of nature, despite the intervention of medical science.
In the case of St. Maria, however, not only was she physically a virgin, but the conception in her womb took place without a man all together - a miracle - and so placed her outside the laws of nature.
Isaiah 66:7-8
and there appearead a great women in heaven a women clothed with the sun and the moon under her feet and upon her head a crown of twelve stars.
and she being with a child cried and giving birth and pained to be delivered.
mary
howecome there is contracdiction in our religion????????
mary
WOW thanks heaps..this is sooo confussen different sources say DIFFERENT THINGS!!!so..what is the answer..
howecome there is contracdiction in our religion????????
ofcourse there is no contradiction in our religion.it just need more research to find out explaination to the diff. opinions.that`s all.i hope i would be able to send this question to pope shenouda soon to get the right answer and in the same time explaination for the other opinion resources.