[quote author=basketball link=board=11;threadid=4112;start=15#msg57488 date=1152537126] in revaltions it says she had pain and cried out in birth so this means she did have pain.
Please read my post above with regards to this verse
There is no contradiction! The woman described in Revelations 12 is the Church who endures pain because of the tribulations against her sons and daughters.
[quote author=monmonmon link=board=11;threadid=4112;start=15#msg57454 date=1152445520] upon her head was a crown of twelve stars,she being with a child cried out in labor and in pain to give birth. this is mary,the new heaven on earth,the sun of righteousness,shines upon us from her.
but the theotokia also says that this woman is st mary !!!!???
i think so...but i think we need more backup sources that they are talking about the CHURCH and not St mary..because in REVELATIONS..there is more that ONE meaning!!
ughhhhh im lost?????if its the church then why is it saying about giving birth and having pain?????and it says a women with the moon and the sun.?????i neeed helppppppp
ive done Bible Study on Revelations and usually references to woman there refer to the Church and St Mary is sometimes referred to as like the Church as she had Jesus inside her.
John 19 25Near the cross of Jesus stood his mother, his mother's sister, Mary the wife of Clopas, and Mary Magdalene. 26When Jesus saw his mother there, and the disciple whom he loved standing nearby, he said to his mother, "Dear woman, here is your son" 27and to the disciple, "Here is your mother." From that time on, this disciple took her into his home.
and these pages from Fr Tadros Y Malaty's book where he explains The Book of Revelations
Hey Guys, how is it going, Guys saint mary gave birth to our lord jesus christ in the complete normal way, she gave birth with all the pains that a woman face when giving birth. The only difference is that she gave birth while she is a virgin and stayed virgin after birth,
Well lol, for now what I can mention is that it is mentioned in the liturgy that our lord jesus christ is exactly similar to us except for sin, so this basically tells why? Also it is not normal for any woman to give birth without going through labour, Virgin Mary gave birth to our lord jesus christ in the very normal way except that her birth was from the holy spirit, but i will try to look for written evidence about this subject and send it to you
I think we first need to know whether she carried the original sin of Adam and Eve or not, if yes then she would have given birth with pain just like any other woman since that was the punishment of Eve. If St. Mary didn't carry the original sin, then she would have given birth without pain.
Guys, St mary carried the sin of adam and Eve as any normal human, and that's why she definitely gave birth with pain like any normal woman, the fact that our lord jesus christ is God doesn't change the fact that virgin mary gave birth without pain. It is said in the liturgy in arabic: (shabahna fe kol shay2 ma3ada el khateya wa7daha) which means that our lord jesus was exactly a human like all of us but just without sin, so that means that he was born exactly the normal way. Also it is said in the church (7abalat we wada3t be ghayr mobada3a) which means that only she got pregnant from the Holy Spirit but this didn't stop her giving birth with pain. The pure virgin St. Mary carried the sin of adam and Eve and if we say no, then we are going to the catholic believe and that's not correct. Also if GOD's plan was to make St. Mary give birth without pain, then why Didn't He make our lord jesus christ go on the cross with pain? why not painlessly???? If we say that virgin Mary gave birth painlessly then that means that she is not a normal human, Virgin mary only concieved birth of the Holy Spirit.
[quote author=hany58 link=board=11;threadid=4112;start=45#msg57640 date=1152850674] Guys, St mary carried the sin of adam and Eve as any normal human, and that's why she definitely gave birth with pain like any normal woman, the fact that our lord jesus christ is God doesn't change the fact that virgin mary gave birth without pain.
Please read the rest of this thread. Numerous quotes from the Fathers have been given that say she gave birth painlessly. To say she gave birth with pain is to go against the teachings of the Church.
It is said in the liturgy in arabic: (shabahna fe kol shay2 ma3ada el khateya wa7daha) which means that our lord jesus was exactly a human like all of us but just without sin, so that means that he was born exactly the normal way.
If the Blessed Virgin needed to give birth with pain in order for Christ to have been fully human, it would be even more natural to say that Christ needed to have an earthly father in order to have been fully human.
Yet we know that He did not have an earthly father, but was born from a Virgin - certainly not normal - yet He was nevertheless fully Man. And so your reasoning does not follow.
Also it is said in the church (7abalat we wada3t be ghayr mobada3a) which means that only she got pregnant from the Holy Spirit but this didn't stop her giving birth with pain.
That's exactly why she did not give birth with pain. She conceived in a miraculous manner, and she gave birth in a miraculous manner for the same reason.
The pure virgin St. Mary carried the sin of adam and Eve and if we say no, then we are going to the catholic believe and that's not correct.
No one is saying she did not inherit a fallen nature from Adam and Eve like the rest of us. But, like I said, she did not conceive in a natural way, therefore she did not give birth in a natural way.
Also if GOD's plan was to make St. Mary give birth without pain, then why Didn't He make our lord jesus christ go on the cross with pain? why not painlessly????
This is not relevant. Its a completely different issue.
If we say that virgin Mary gave birth painlessly then that means that she is not a normal human, Virgin mary only concieved birth of the Holy Spirit.
She was definately a normal human being, but she did not conceive in a normal way, and therefore did not give birth with pain. This is not just my private opinion, but the faith of the Church.
i had asked this to a GREAT MAN...and he had said..well i dont have anything to support my answer from the bible at the moment..but he analysed and said..when JESUS came out of the tomb...did he really need to 'roll the tomb away' no he came out without 'pain' effort EVEN though he was a HUMAN!
i hope that has some sort of relevance..
he was just showing that throughout the course of His life..things that take effort or 'pain' from us are done effortlessly or pailes by our Lord Jesus Christ!!
St. Mary giving birth without pain does not undermine her humanity any more than it does for a sick person being healed by God. Both cases show mere humans being relieved of frail human experience through divine intervention; what's the big deal?
If one wishes to be consistent in their argument, they would have to declare St. Mary to be non-human by virtue of the mere fact she managed to give birth as a Virgin. "Oh but she did that by the Holy Spirit!" - yeah, well she likewise gave birth without pain, "by the Holy Spirit", so again, what's the problem?
Giving birth without pain was not natural to the humanity of the Virgin, any more than being able to conceive a child without knowing a man. Both these things were accomplished by divine intervention.
HOW ABOUT U PEOPLE ACTUALLY READ BOOKS AND ASK U'RE PRIEST WHOSE JOBS ARE, BY THE WAY, TO TEACH YOU ABOUT THESE THINGS, INSTEAD OF RELYING ON OTHERS WHO HAVE NO CLUE WAT THEY'RE SAYING JUST LIKE U............................THIS ISN'T A SOCIAL GROUP WHERE U JUST STATE U'RE OPNION, there is right and wrong and church doctrine, u guys better be careful before this thing turns into a heresy
yes i agree with Stcopt..but in my case the ABOUNA is the one that asked me the question and refused to give me the answer..he said that if i try to search..the answer would stick with me more ;D
HOW ABOUT U PEOPLE ACTUALLY READ BOOKS AND ASK U'RE PRIEST WHOSE JOBS ARE, BY THE WAY, TO TEACH YOU ABOUT THESE THINGS, INSTEAD OF RELYING ON OTHERS WHO HAVE NO CLUE WAT THEY'RE SAYING JUST LIKE U
what's ur problem, quotes from church fathers, and prophecy's from the bible have been provided. I actually asked my priest yesterday again, and he confirmed everything that has been said, about the painless birth. No need to yell here ::)
Comments
in revaltions it says she had pain and cried out in birth so this means she did have pain.
Please read my post above with regards to this verse
upon her head was a crown of twelve stars,she being with a child cried out in labor and in pain to give birth.
this is mary,the new heaven on earth,the sun of righteousness,shines upon us from her.
but the theotokia also says that this woman is st mary !!!!???
and thaat is why there is probably so many ideas about this..
mary
John_2000 are you sure??
mary
ive done Bible Study on Revelations and usually references to woman there refer to the Church and St Mary is sometimes referred to as like the Church as she had Jesus inside her.
so in Revelation it refers to the Church!
ok?
Krisitna123
ahh im lost oo..mary...im with you here..!!
have any clue or anyone who has thouroughly studied revelations
i studied Revelations and ABouna said that refereces to Woman in Revelation are references to the Church.
got it!
Kristina123
thankyou very much :D
John 19
25Near the cross of Jesus stood his mother, his mother's sister, Mary the wife of Clopas, and Mary Magdalene. 26When Jesus saw his mother there, and the disciple whom he loved standing nearby, he said to his mother, "Dear woman, here is your son" 27and to the disciple, "Here is your mother." From that time on, this disciple took her into his home.
and these pages from Fr Tadros Y Malaty's book where he explains The Book of Revelations
mary
mary
Guys saint mary gave birth to our lord jesus christ in the complete normal way, she gave birth with all the pains that a woman face when giving birth. The only difference is that she gave birth while she is a virgin and stayed virgin after birth,
Hany
What would it theologically mean if she gave birth with pain?
Saint Mary was not a normal woman nor was her child (Christ), and so it does not make sense for her to give a normal birth.
Many quotes have been provided by our valuable members to prove that St. Mary gave birth painlessly.
I hope this helps
Hany
Guys, St mary carried the sin of adam and Eve as any normal human, and that's why she definitely gave birth with pain like any normal woman, the fact that our lord jesus christ is God doesn't change the fact that virgin mary gave birth without pain.
Please read the rest of this thread. Numerous quotes from the Fathers have been given that say she gave birth painlessly. To say she gave birth with pain is to go against the teachings of the Church. If the Blessed Virgin needed to give birth with pain in order for Christ to have been fully human, it would be even more natural to say that Christ needed to have an earthly father in order to have been fully human.
Yet we know that He did not have an earthly father, but was born from a Virgin - certainly not normal - yet He was nevertheless fully Man. And so your reasoning does not follow. That's exactly why she did not give birth with pain. She conceived in a miraculous manner, and she gave birth in a miraculous manner for the same reason. No one is saying she did not inherit a fallen nature from Adam and Eve like the rest of us. But, like I said, she did not conceive in a natural way, therefore she did not give birth in a natural way. This is not relevant. Its a completely different issue. She was definately a normal human being, but she did not conceive in a normal way, and therefore did not give birth with pain. This is not just my private opinion, but the faith of the Church.
i hope that has some sort of relevance..
he was just showing that throughout the course of His life..things that take effort or 'pain' from us are done effortlessly or pailes by our Lord Jesus Christ!!
If one wishes to be consistent in their argument, they would have to declare St. Mary to be non-human by virtue of the mere fact she managed to give birth as a Virgin. "Oh but she did that by the Holy Spirit!" - yeah, well she likewise gave birth without pain, "by the Holy Spirit", so again, what's the problem?
Giving birth without pain was not natural to the humanity of the Virgin, any more than being able to conceive a child without knowing a man. Both these things were accomplished by divine intervention.