Howdy, Stranger!
It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!
Categories
- All Categories 13.8K
- General Category 10.9K
- General Announcements 184
- Faith Issues 3.4K
- Coptic Orthodox Church 2.5K
- Personal Issues 1.4K
- Prayer Requests 423
- Random Issues 1.8K
- Introductions 294
- Non-Orthodox Inquiries 232
- Youth Corner 606
- Hymns 2.5K
- Hymns Discussion 2.5K
- Technicial Difficulties 368
- Technical Topics 368
Coptic Church, New Split!
I just came across this article about a coptic priest, Maximus I, who is creating a breakaway sect of the coptic church. The story is here --> http://www.middle-east-online.com/english/?id=16907
I personally find this repulsive, though its very interesting to note the US government position on the matter. True to form, they are supporting the new church because of its disagreement about Baba Shenouda's refusal to agree to normalisation of ties with Israel.
I hope people read the article, and appreciate the position of sayedna.
Ma Salaama,
Matt
I personally find this repulsive, though its very interesting to note the US government position on the matter. True to form, they are supporting the new church because of its disagreement about Baba Shenouda's refusal to agree to normalisation of ties with Israel.
I hope people read the article, and appreciate the position of sayedna.
Ma Salaama,
Matt
Comments
a) The news regarding the apostasy of Maxie Michelle, is oldschool news. He wrote heretical articles at his church quite some years back, and after persisting in his heresies without repenting of his errors, he was ex-communicated. The only recent news regarding this matter regards the fact this heretic is now trying to ordinate bishops.
b) Maxie michelle was ex-communicated on his own. He was neither part of a faction, nor did he voluntarily leave. Out of pride, this man is setting up his own church just to spite the true Mother Church that disciplined him for his blasphemies.
c) This man was never a priest. He was a lay person. This lay person was ex-communicated and consequently made himself a priest. He is a clown; a fraud; an imposter; a heretic.
Last Night at the General Meeting that HG Bishop Daniel holds every month, he addresed this issue, and told us evvvveerrrything that was going on with this guy... personally i was thinking "this guys a freak"... lol
anyways, then Sayedna created a pettition regarding this issue, wich is Great because it will be signed by all the churches in sydney, and then sent to egypt!
so theres the good news...
thank you
God Bless.
Wow, so much misinformation in one post: a) this is not "new", b) this is not a "split", c) this man was not a priest.
a) The news regarding the apostasy of Maxie Michelle, is oldschool news. He wrote heretical articles at his church quite some years back, and after persisting in his heresies without repenting of his errors, he was ex-communicated. The only recent news regarding this matter regards the fact this heretic is now trying to ordinate bishops.
b) Maxie michelle was ex-communicated on his own. He was neither part of a faction, nor did he voluntarily leave. Out of pride, this man is setting up his own church just to spite the true Mother Church that disciplined him for his blasphemies.
c) This man was never a priest. He was a lay person. This lay person was ex-communicated and consequently made himself a priest. He is a clown; a fraud; an imposter; a heretic.
Shukraan habibi. You've cleared a lot up, particularly the fact that he wasnt a priest. It's hard to believe that he would achieve any following in Egypt, but i guess everyone has free will..
Again, thanks for your clarification.
Matt
Though for some reason they have said "Maximus Johanna I, a former member of Egypt's Coptic Orthodox Church's clergy, was forced to leave the country in the seventies due to his disagreement on a number of issues with Egypt's Coptic Orthodox Pope Shenouda III" thus indicating that he was legitimately ordained in the Coptic church, before he started his breakaway movement. Anyway, whatever the case i really dont think that his "split" is as significant as this article makes out (i.e. i dont think it is "shaking" our church).
Rabana maak,
Matt
Read the (partly funny) BBC version
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/5145988.stm
Who is a Bishop, Patriarch or Pope? He and the Church members are one.
If the "maximized" imposter finds any followers, they are imposters too and they were bought by money.
In other words, Mr. Max is upset that the Church is keeping the Apostolic faith, and so he seeks to establish his own church to go back to that very Apostolic faith that he is not happy with in the first place. Like I stated earlier, I think this man has mental problems. He is not concerned with the truth, nor is he concerned with the faith. He is merely concerned with himself. He doesn't want to be told he is wrong, and he will go to lengths to puff up his pride, even if that means self-appointing himself patriarch of a non-existent church.
1) This man does not have the Orthodox faith - he is a heretic.
2) This man is not in communion with the Orthodox Church - he is a schismatic.
3) This man can not even claim an ecclesiatical history within the orders of the church - he is a fraud.
4) This man has no moral integrity, for he is evidently full of pride and arrogance - he is evil.
Now someone please tell me why anyone would want to follow, a fraudulent, evil, and schismatic heretic?
haha, it reminds me of what Sadat said about Gaddaffi "he is 100% sick and possessed of the devil"
There is also this hilarious point here "he calls for bishops to be allowed to marry, against the stipulations of all Orthodox churches: "We received priesthood from the apostles, who themselves were married. When the Council of Nicea issued a decree stipulating that bishops not marry, it was a recommendation and not a stipulation," says Maximus."
He is also clearly very very humble, evident from his comment that "But I am not a weak man, I am not afraid of anyone" (insert sarcasm!)
hmmm.... I wish the Egyptian government would just lock him, and his followers, up for disturbing the peace. I've always thought democracy wasnt necessarily the best thing..
Anyway I guess we should just pray for the health of Baba Shenouda, and the longevity of our church..
Matt
There is also this hilarious point here "he calls for bishops to be allowed to marry, against the stipulations of all Orthodox churches: "We received priesthood from the apostles, who themselves were married. When the Council of Nicea issued a decree stipulating that bishops not marry, it was a recommendation and not a stipulation," says Maximus."
I know this is going off topic, but does anyone know the reason for the Church's decision to chose Bishops from unmarried clergy? Bishops in the very early Church were married, so why did the Church decide to change this - was it for practical reasons or does it have a deeper theological significance?
Thanks
One of the major reasons people are drawn close to him is that they seek divorce (and get a permission to re-marry usually), but couldnt get this permission from the coptic church.
Let me give you an example of something that happens in immigration countries:
A man has a business in a foreign country and seeks to marry someone from egypt. He obviously has little time, so he finds himself anyone to marry. THe wife doesnt know (doesnt get told the whole truth) about the situation she will be living in. She agrees to marry him, and when she migrates she finds out that her husband is away 24/7 for work, she doesnt know anyone in the neighbourhood, perhaps she doesnt even find the amount of wealth she was promised. THen she decides to leave the country and live with her parents in Egypt. Now, in this case there's strictly no reason for divorce (no adultery).....what can they do....either stay unmarried, or join another religion/church that will allow them to divorce and re-marry (probably also one of the reasons copts may convert to islam, or protestant churches).
salam :)
Fibo
Now someone please tell me why anyone would want to follow, a fraudulent, evil, and schismatic heretic?
BECAUSE, People want to get divorced, people want some things their way, so Max's followers, just think "oh what a cool bishop, just like Anba... whatever... except he can divorce people..." etc etc... they are so into their situation that they can't see his schism and heretics! This is the only way max has won people, How Else?!
I bet with all of us, we dont know EVERY church teaching and tradition etc, there is HEAPS to learn, so much to learn, like, we learn something new everyday, so then the people who have followed max, i bet they dont probably dont know what he's talking about, let alone teachings from our church! myself, urself even... we might know lots of things about our church, but there is never too much or too little knowledge! thats why max's followers surely havnt questioned his heretics and etc, because they "dont care!" they just want it simpler, like getting divorced, or whatever max makes "easy" in their eyes!
Thank You.
GBU.
Im from Australia and there was a petition going around about this issue on Sunday.
the aim was to ask that the Egyptian Govt doesnt recognise this new church.
Kristina123
Forever,
Coptic Servent
http://www.copticpope.org/index.php
HH press conference:
http://copticpope.tv/Live_video1/live_video1.html[url]
- Not every lunatic who assembles people in the basement of his house or in the backyard institutes a "church", nor is it a split, specially when it comes from a person who is already excommunicated.
- One has to note that the egyptian government are getting better and more clever, relatively, in setting up schemes and plots to try to destroy the Church in Egypt. After 14 centuries of persecution, they started the plot of setting up "rival" churches in Egypt, going back to Saddat's very evil but genius plot in the early 80's. Of course, Max Fort Michel does not appeal to any sane coptic person who went as far as the Angel's class in Sunday School, but it is only the beginning and the "wanna-be-Popes" are many. With the declining health of H.H. Pope Shenouda, a great Pope and teacher, the government feeds the schismatic groups with much support. It attacks the core of the Church, which is its unity and its Apostolic Tradition.
- Traditionally, Copts have been very loyal to their Church, represented by Bishops and one Pope, and it they were aided by the continuous Orthodoxy of the hierarchs. We survived imposters for the whole Byzantine era, and beyond in the isalmic era. Are the same qualities that has endured so much persecution and evil plots to destroy the Church still present ? Do we have enough knowledge to understand the importance of clergy, sacraments, Apostolic Tradition and their relation to salvation? I am not even talking about the youth or the average church goers, I am talking about servants, and specially in Australia, US, Canada and Europe.
Granted, Max Fort will appeal to people who are already, not officially but spiritually, non-orthodox, and it will help clean up the house from dung. But it is only a matter of time when a more sophisticated charismatic leader (and heretic) will emerge with his (and maybe her, you never know) own hierarchy ambitions. It is not a clear turn-off.
Lord have mercy.
On a different note, i also came across this article --> http://www.christiannewswire.com/news/2894498.html
that relates to what we are discussing here. I have to admit though the article is flawed (to me anyway) for a number of reasons.. Anyway, read it if you want..
Rabana Maak
Matt
No decent CO here or anywhere around the world accepts what this enemy and who support him try to do.
This site christiannewswire is antichristian: they use evil propaganda language against christians. And what else does this site promote?
I understood HH said the imposter has excommunicated himself from the COC: he officially announced he is not connected anymore to the CO Church.
What are these so called reformations that have been ignored for years by HH? Whats their problem with HH pope Shenouda anyway, the only thing he has desperately tried to do is keeping the peace between christians and muslims, so that the situation in egypt doesnt turn into a new palestine-israel conflict in which thousands are being killed every year.
-Pete
ps. its funny how the church or foundation that this heretic set up is named after st athanasius, when saint athanasius was the biggest defenders against heretics in history.
Isaiah 33:11
You conceive chaff, you give birth to straw; your breath is a fire that consumes you.
The Lord will intervene and he will flee at the breath of His Mouth.
Nothing new mentioned, but it is interesting to see how things are being dealt with..
Rabana maak..
Matt