[quote author=why link=board=11;threadid=4112;start=15#msg57450 date=1152436016] ok i have a question related to this..seeing that St. Mary was a human..how come she had not to bear the sin of Humans..where when Eve ate from the Tree, a consequence to all human Kind was that there would be labour for all humans in the time of Birth..
Who said she didn't? She called God her "Saviour". Saviour from what if she didn't bear the sinful human nature?
She had our nature, but she was simply the purest woman the whole human race, i.e. with the least sins.
By the way, I'm with the team that says that she went through labour pain. Everything about Jesus that was human remained normal, except sin. And the one thing abnormal about His birth (without a seed and the Virgin remaing a virgin) was clearly mentioned. Why would we assume that anything else went abnormally yet was not important enough to be stated as clearly as the rest of the information?
[quote author=sorehearted link=board=11;threadid=4112;start=60#msg57893 date=1153481720] I don't think they actually say they opposite. I think that some of us may be interpreting what they said as the opposite.
Iqbal quoted this another place on this thread:
St. Ephraim the Syrian states:
"Just as (the Lord) made His entrance when the doors were closed, in the same way did He come forth from the Virgin’s womb, because this virgin really and truly gave birth without pain.... Her virginity remained safe and sound."
Quoted from Fr. Tadros Malaty's St. Mary in the Orthodox Concept, p. 25.
Please tell me how this statment can be interpreted in any way other than that the Virgin gave birth painlessly.
I have a new question though. Does it matter to us wether Our Lady went through labour pain or not? Spiritually, I mean.
Since the Fathers teach us that her giving birth painlessly is due to her having conceived without seed, it confirms her virginity.
Labour pains are not caused because the mothers are not virgins. They are caused by severe contractions that help push the baby outside the mother's body having nothing to do with the fact that the mother giving birth is not a virgin!
[quote author=sorehearted link=board=11;threadid=4112;start=60#msg57896 date=1153489790] Confirms her virginity?! ???
Labour pains are not caused because the mothers are not virgins. They are caused by severe contractions that help push the baby outside the mother's body having nothing to do with the fact that the mother giving birth is not a virgin!
And the severe pain caused by these contractions was a result of the fall of Adam and Eve - see the book of Genesis. The Holy Father's teach that because the Holy Virgin became pregnant by unnatural means, she is thus exempt from the birthpains experienced by those who concieve according to the laws of nature.
Therefore, the fact that she gave birth painlessly - i.e. not according to the laws of nature - is a confirmation of the fact that she became pregnant in a manner that is contrary to the laws of nature.
I'm sorry, Orthodox11, but that doesn't make any sense. We don't need "proof" that Our Lady had a Divine pregnancy without a seed. ArchAngel Gabriel telling her so is enough for us to believe, don't you think?
Besides, like you said, those pains where originally caused by the sinful nature we got because of the sin of Adam and Eve. Our Lady, as pure as she was, had our same sinful nature. Why else did she call God "her Saviour"?
[quote author=sorehearted link=board=11;threadid=4112;start=60#msg57929 date=1153518586] I'm sorry, Orthodox11, but that doesn't make any sense. We don't need "proof" that Our Lady had a Divine pregnancy without a seed. ArchAngel Gabriel telling her so is enough for us to believe, don't you think?
Besides, like you said, those pains where originally caused by the sinful nature we got because of the sin of Adam and Eve. Our Lady, as pure as she was, had our same sinful nature. Why else did she call God "her Saviour"?
[quote author=Hos Erof link=board=11;threadid=4112;start=0#msg57411 date=1152356402] It does say so in the Thursday Theotokia, unless i misunderstood the verse:
(Thursday Theotokia V:IV)
[coptic]Vy gar etaumacf hwc nou] `apa;yc ebolqen `Viwt aumacf on kata carx apa;yc ebolqen ]par;enoc [/coptic]
For He who was born is God, born without pain from the Father, and He was also born according to the flesh, without pain from the virgin.
my fr. met anba rafael yesterday and asked him...anba rafael said that st mary felt pain.and as for the verse in thursday theotokia,the word [coptic]`apa;yc [/coptic] refers to the pain of the sin,which means that st mary didn`t make a sin to give birth of her baby.and this explains why early fathers said she had no pain.they probably meant the pain of sin.and that`s why they also relates always the pain with virginity in there writings.
His Grace Bishop Youssef confirmed that St. Mary gave birth without pain in his latest article on St. Mary, when he quoted an Jewish-Christian document with approval:
"According to the "Odes of Solomon" (Odes of Solomon 19:8), "she travailed and brought forth a son without incurring pain."
So, we have two Church Fathers and one early Christian document attesting to the the tradition that St. Mary gave birth without pain, in addition to a Coptic Bishop and a profound Coptic theologian and priest's positive appeal to this tradition.
Is there really a point in arguing this issue any further?
ooooooooooookay ::) a spirit is not to be born from a human habibi, St Mary did get pregnant through the Holy Spirit, but she gave birth to the incarnate Word!!
There was no pain 1. Jesus likes to walk through doors we say it in alot of places. Ezekial said the door remained shut and yet He still passed through. 2. Someone brought up that he didn't need to push the stone to get out of the tomb 3. Doctors are able to give medications (anesthetics?) to women so that they feel less pain or none......God can do more than that 4. Doesn't mean that there weren't any contractions. A baby needs to get out through contractions......it only means no pain Forgive me Yours in Christ, Danny
Comments
mary
ok i have a question related to this..seeing that St. Mary was a human..how come she had not to bear the sin of Humans..where when Eve ate from the Tree, a consequence to all human Kind was that there would be labour for all humans in the time of Birth..
Who said she didn't? She called God her "Saviour". Saviour from what if she didn't bear the sinful human nature?
She had our nature, but she was simply the purest woman the whole human race, i.e. with the least sins.
By the way, I'm with the team that says that she went through labour pain. Everything about Jesus that was human remained normal, except sin. And the one thing abnormal about His birth (without a seed and the Virgin remaing a virgin) was clearly mentioned. Why would we assume that anything else went abnormally yet was not important enough to be stated as clearly as the rest of the information?
I have a new question though. Does it matter to us wether Our Lady went through labour pain or not? Spiritually, I mean.
I don't think they actually say they opposite. I think that some of us may be interpreting what they said as the opposite.
Iqbal quoted this another place on this thread: St. Ephraim the Syrian states:
"Just as (the Lord) made His entrance when the doors were closed, in the same way did He come forth from the Virgin’s womb, because this virgin really and truly gave birth without pain.... Her virginity remained safe and sound."
Quoted from Fr. Tadros Malaty's St. Mary in the Orthodox Concept, p. 25. Please tell me how this statment can be interpreted in any way other than that the Virgin gave birth painlessly. Since the Fathers teach us that her giving birth painlessly is due to her having conceived without seed, it confirms her virginity.
Labour pains are not caused because the mothers are not virgins. They are caused by severe contractions that help push the baby outside the mother's body having nothing to do with the fact that the mother giving birth is not a virgin!
Confirms her virginity?! ???
Labour pains are not caused because the mothers are not virgins. They are caused by severe contractions that help push the baby outside the mother's body having nothing to do with the fact that the mother giving birth is not a virgin!
And the severe pain caused by these contractions was a result of the fall of Adam and Eve - see the book of Genesis. The Holy Father's teach that because the Holy Virgin became pregnant by unnatural means, she is thus exempt from the birthpains experienced by those who concieve according to the laws of nature.
Therefore, the fact that she gave birth painlessly - i.e. not according to the laws of nature - is a confirmation of the fact that she became pregnant in a manner that is contrary to the laws of nature.
Besides, like you said, those pains where originally caused by the sinful nature we got because of the sin of Adam and Eve. Our Lady, as pure as she was, had our same sinful nature. Why else did she call God "her Saviour"?
I'm sorry, Orthodox11, but that doesn't make any sense. We don't need "proof" that Our Lady had a Divine pregnancy without a seed. ArchAngel Gabriel telling her so is enough for us to believe, don't you think?
Besides, like you said, those pains where originally caused by the sinful nature we got because of the sin of Adam and Eve. Our Lady, as pure as she was, had our same sinful nature. Why else did she call God "her Saviour"?
its gettting really confusing.
sorry,
Please pray for my weakness,
Coptic Youth.
It does say so in the Thursday Theotokia, unless i misunderstood the verse:
(Thursday Theotokia V:IV)
[coptic]Vy gar etaumacf hwc nou] `apa;yc ebolqen `Viwt aumacf on kata carx apa;yc ebolqen ]par;enoc [/coptic]
For He who was born is God, born without pain from the Father, and He was also born according to the flesh, without pain from the virgin.
my fr. met anba rafael yesterday and asked him...anba rafael said that st mary felt pain.and as for the verse in thursday theotokia,the word [coptic]`apa;yc [/coptic] refers to the pain of the sin,which means that st mary didn`t make a sin to give birth of her baby.and this explains why early fathers said she had no pain.they probably meant the pain of sin.and that`s why they also relates always the pain with virginity in there writings.
"According to the "Odes of Solomon" (Odes of Solomon 19:8), "she travailed and brought forth a son without incurring pain."
So, we have two Church Fathers and one early Christian document attesting to the the tradition that St. Mary gave birth without pain, in addition to a Coptic Bishop and a profound Coptic theologian and priest's positive appeal to this tradition.
Is there really a point in arguing this issue any further?
a spirit is not to be born from a human habibi, St Mary did get pregnant through the Holy Spirit, but she gave birth to the incarnate Word!!
mary
1. Jesus likes to walk through doors we say it in alot of places.
Ezekial said the door remained shut and yet He still passed through.
2. Someone brought up that he didn't need to push the stone to get out of the tomb
3. Doctors are able to give medications (anesthetics?) to women so that they feel less pain or none......God can do more than that
4. Doesn't mean that there weren't any contractions. A baby needs to get out through contractions......it only means no pain
Forgive me
Yours in Christ,
Danny
you know how women go through labour, they have pain because there is this thing that is broken...where they give birth or have sex..dont memba..
but becuase this wasnt broken...st mary had to have MORE of a pain becaseu she gave birth to God and that linning still not being BROKEN!!