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Hmm how should i answer this?
well
i serve in church and i gave the lesson today. the topic was about Elisha (2Kings) heres a quick summary;
so we talked of Naaman the Leper who was healed by Elisha after he told him to wash seven times in the Jordan River. Naaman had bought gifts (Gold and silver and clothing) for Elisha but Elisha did not accept these and instead asked him to give a sacrifice to God.
Elisha's servant - student named Gehazi saw the gifts and was overcome by greed and ran after Naaman on his way home and told him that he will take the gifts and give them to Elisha, but instead took them himself.
so when Elisha found out he made Gehazi a leper and all his children and family and his childrens children etc will inherit that disease.
so the children asked me why does Naaman children and family also contract the disease when they themselves did not sin and are innocent of what Naaman did??
so how should i answer? (the kids are in yr 5 so 10 yrs old)
Kristina123
i serve in church and i gave the lesson today. the topic was about Elisha (2Kings) heres a quick summary;
so we talked of Naaman the Leper who was healed by Elisha after he told him to wash seven times in the Jordan River. Naaman had bought gifts (Gold and silver and clothing) for Elisha but Elisha did not accept these and instead asked him to give a sacrifice to God.
Elisha's servant - student named Gehazi saw the gifts and was overcome by greed and ran after Naaman on his way home and told him that he will take the gifts and give them to Elisha, but instead took them himself.
so when Elisha found out he made Gehazi a leper and all his children and family and his childrens children etc will inherit that disease.
so the children asked me why does Naaman children and family also contract the disease when they themselves did not sin and are innocent of what Naaman did??
so how should i answer? (the kids are in yr 5 so 10 yrs old)
Kristina123
Comments
they understand that God is fair and that seems unfair to them they are very bright and wont be satisfied with that answer i need something more that will be understood at that level.
Kristina123
Perhaps God would have healed him and his family if he repented... What do you think?
Please people maybe help me to stop going on tasbeha.. by posting against my action(s).. as I may be wasting time.. but I feel inclined or something to go on..
This is a hard one as Elisha’s action appears to go against the teaching of the scriptures.
I find the response of Jesusiskingofkings very appealing and logical.
For it is written that who ever ask he shall be given and who ever seek, he shall find.
Because Gehazi did not repent before he was found out and probably failed to sincerely repent even after Elisha found out, he earned the wrath and curse on himself and family after. And the sickness of Naaman was tranfered to Gehazi and his family.
The verses below clearly show how the cause upon Gehazi contradicts the teaching in the Bible.
Deuteronomy 24:16:
"The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers: every man shall be put to death for his own sin.”
Jeremiah 31:30:
"But every one shall die for his own iniquity ...”
Ezekiel 18:20:
"The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father; neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son. The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him."
Matthew 7: 1-2.
"Judge not, that ye be not judged. For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again."
I Corinthians 3:8.
"Now he that planted and he that watered are one; and every man shall receive his own reward according to his own labour."
So your best angle is to thread the path of non repentance and stress the need for one to follow the good path and repent whenever some ills are committed.
Stress the need for one to always try to overcome greed and weakness of the flesh.
Good luck.
Sorry I had to cut and paste all below for the benefit of those who may not be immediately with internet at their disposal.
"....20 But Gehazi, the servant of Elisha the man of God, said, Behold, my master hath spared Naaman this Syrian, in not receiving at his hands that which he brought: but, as the LORD liveth, I will run after him, and take somewhat of him. 21 So Gehazi followed after Naaman. And when Naaman saw him running after him, he lighted down from the chariot to meet him, and said, Is all well? 22 And he said, All is well. My master hath sent me, saying, Behold, even now there be come to me from mount Ephraim two young men of the sons of the prophets: give them, I pray thee, a talent of silver, and two changes of garments. 23 And Naaman said, Be content, take two talents. And he urged him, and bound two talents of silver in two bags, with two changes of garments, and laid them upon two of his servants; and they bare them before him. 24 And when he came to the tower, he took them from their hand, and bestowed them in the house: and he let the men go, and they departed. 25 But he went in, and stood before his master. And Elisha said unto him, Whence comest thou, Gehazi? And he said, Thy servant went no whither. 26 And he said unto him, Went not mine heart with thee, when the man turned again from his chariot to meet thee? Is it a time to receive money, and to receive garments, and oliveyards, and vineyards, and sheep, and oxen, and menservants, and maidservants? 27 The leprosy therefore of Naaman shall cleave unto thee, and unto thy seed for ever. And he went out from his presence a leper as white as snow.
Naaman, a Syrian, a courtier, a soldier, had many servants, and we read how wise and good they were, v. 13. Elisha, a holy prophet, a man of God, has but one servant, and he proves a base, lying, naughty fellow. Those that heard of Elisha at a distance honoured him, and got good by what they heard; but he that stood continually before him, to hear his wisdom, had no good impressions made upon him either by his doctrine or miracles. One would have expected that Elisha's servant should be a saint (even Ahab's servant, Obadiah, was), but even Christ himself had a Judas among his followers. The means of grace cannot give grace. The best men, the best ministers have often had those about them that have been their grief and shame. The nearer the church the further from God. Many come from the east and west to sit down with Abraham when the children of the kingdom shall be cast out. Here is,
I. Gehazi's sin. It was a complicated sin. 1. The love of money, that root of all evil, was at the bottom of it. His master contemned Naaman's treasures, but he coveted them, v. 20. His heart (says bishop Hall) was packed up in Naaman's chests, and he must run after him to fetch it. Multitudes, by coveting worldly wealth, have erred from the faith and pierced themselves with many sorrows. 2. He blamed his master for refusing Naaman's present, condemned him as foolish in not taking gold when he might have it, envied and grudged his kindness and generosity to this stranger, though it was for the good of his soul. In short, he thought himself wiser than his master. 3. When Naaman, like a person of accomplished manners, alighted from his chariot to meet him (v. 21), he told him a deliberate lie, that his master sent him to him, and so he received that courtesy to himself that Naaman intended to his master. 4. He abused his master, and basely misrepresented him to Naaman as one that had soon repented of his generosity, that was fickle, and did not know his own mind, that would say and unsay, swear and unswear, that would not do an honourable thing but he must presently undo it again. his story of the two sons of the prophets was as silly as it was false; if he would have begged a token for two young scholars, surely less than a talent of silver might serve them. 5. There was danger of his alienating Naaman from that holy religion which he had espoused, and lessening his good opinion of it. he would be ready to say, as Paul's enemies suggested concerning him (2 Cor. xii. 16, 17), that, though Elisha himself did not burden him, yet being crafty he caught him with guile, sending those that made a gain of him. We hope that he understood afterwards that Elisha's hand was not in it, and that Gehazi was forced to restore what he had unjustly got, else it might have driven him to his idols again. 6. His seeking to conceal what he had unjustly got added much to his sin. (1.) He hid it, as Achan did his gain, by sacrilege, in the tower, a secret place, a strong place, till he should have an opportunity of laying it out, v. 24. Now he thought himself sure of it, and applauded his own management of a fraud by which he had imposed, not only upon the prudence of Naaman, but upon Elisha's spirit of discerning, as Ananias and Sapphira upon the apostles. (2.) He denied it: He went in, and stood before his master, ready to receive his orders. None looked more observant of his master, though really none more injurious to him; he thought, as Ephraim, I have become rich, but they shall find no iniquity in me, Hos. xii. 8. His master asked him where he had been, "Nowhere, sir" (said he), "out of the house." Note, One lie commonly begets another: the way of that sin is down-hill; therefore dare to be true.
II. The punishment of this sin. Elisha immediately called him to an account for it; and observe,
1. How he was convicted. He thought to impose upon the prophet, but was soon given to understand that the Spirit of prophecy could not be deceived, and that it was in vain to lie to the Holy Ghost. Elisha could tell him, (1.) What he had done, though he had denied it. "Thou sayest thou wentest nowhere, but went not my heart with thee?" v. 26. Had Gehazi yet to learn that prophets had spiritual eyes? or could he think to hide any thing from a seer, from him with whom the secret of the Lord was? Note, It is folly to presume upon sin in hopes of secresy. When thou goest aside into any by-path does not thy own conscience go with thee? Does not the eye of God go with thee? He that covers his sin shall not prosper, particularly a lying tongue is but for a moment, Prov. xii. 19. Truth will transpire, and often comes to light strangely, to the confusion of those that make lies their refuge. (2.) What he designed, though he kept that in his own breast. He could tell him the very thoughts and intents of his heart, that he was projecting, now that he had got these two talents, to purchase ground and cattle, to leave Elisha's service, and to set up for himself. Note, All the foolish hopes and contrivances of carnal worldlings are open before God. And he tells him also the evil of it: "Is it a time to receive money? Is this an opportunity of enriching thyself? Couldst thou find no better way of getting money than by belying thy master and laying a stumbling-block before a young convert?" Note, Those that are for getting wealth at any time, and by any ways and means whatsoever, right or wrong, lay themselves open to a great deal of temptation. Those that will be rich (per fas, per nefas; rem, rem, quocunque modo rem--by fair means, by foul means; careless of principle, intent only on money) drown themselves in destruction and perdition, 1 Tim. vi. 9. War, and fire, and plague, and shipwreck, are not, as many make them, things to get money by. It is not a time to increase our wealth when we cannot do it but in such ways as are dishonourable to God and religion or injurious to our brethren or the public.
2. How he was punished for it: The leprosy of Naaman shall cleave to thee, v. 27. If he will have his money, he shall take his disease with it, Transit cum onere--It passes with this incumbrance. He was contriving to entail lands upon his posterity; but, instead of them, he entails a loathsome disease on the heirs of his body, from generation to generation. The sentence was immediately executed on himself; no sooner said than done: He went out from his presence a leper as white as snow. Thus he is stigmatized and made infamous, and carries the mark of his shame wherever he goes: thus he loads himself and family with a curse, which shall not only for the present proclaim his villany, but for ever perpetuate the remembrance of it. Note, The getting of treasures by a lying tongue is a vanity tossed to and fro of those that seek death, Prov. xxi. 6. Those who get wealth by fraud and injustice cannot expect either the comfort or the continuance of it. What was Gehazi profited, though he gained his two talents, when thereby he lost his health, his honour, his peace, his service, and, if repentance prevented not, his soul for ever? See Job xx. 12, &c."
For the whole commentry visit: http://www.ccel.org/h/henry/mhc2/MHC12005.HTM
Someone will say "but that is cruel" or "why would God allow this?" notice in all of Gehazi's plots he had chances given to him to repent and he did not. Even to the end when asked by Elisha about the money and garments he refused to acknowledge his fault.
We find many men and women with leprosy. Even now, today, there is leprosy--sin is there not?
What is implied is that the generations of the sons of Gehazi had, did have, and will continue to have leprosy to this day.
There will be consequences in your wrong actions, and devastating results that can be far reaching. What do we learn from this message?
We are to be working for Christ, and not allowing ourselves to get involved in the world. Stop the lying and the cover up. We must be credible people in our witness for our Lord.
Understand nothing you do as a Christian will go unnoticed by the Lord Jesus; all your thoughts and intentions He knows very well.
Before you act think about what it is you are going to do; it could very well have long lasting effects. God loves you and desires to see all His children walk in truth.
However does that mean the people of gehazi will be eternally condemned? no
Christ himself healed lepers and furthermore gives his disciples the power to heal lepers.
Hi Kristina,
This is a hard one as Elisha’s action appears to go against the teaching of the scriptures.
I find the response of Jesusiskingofkings very appealing and logical.
For it is written that who ever ask he shall be given and who ever seek, he shall find.
Because Gehazi did not repent before he was found out and probably failed to sincerely repent even after Elisha found out, he earned the wrath and curse on himself and family after. And the sickness of Naaman was tranfered to Gehazi and his family.
The verses below clearly show how the cause upon Gehazi contradicts the teaching in the Bible.
Deuteronomy 24:16:
"The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers: every man shall be put to death for his own sin.”
Jeremiah 31:30:
"But every one shall die for his own iniquity ...”
Ezekiel 18:20:
"The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father; neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son. The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him."
Matthew 7: 1-2.
"Judge not, that ye be not judged. For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again."
I Corinthians 3:8.
"Now he that planted and he that watered are one; and every man shall receive his own reward according to his own labour."
So your best angle is to thread the path of non repentance and stress the need for one to follow the good path and repent whenever some ills are committed.
Stress the need for one to always try to overcome greed and weakness of the flesh.
Good luck.
I have to disagree on the way you have understood these verses. Leprosy does not imply eterernal condemnation.
For example if i have a disease i can repent and gain eternal life, the disease is there yes but that does not mean i have been condemned to death by my forefathers.
Lets take a look at a modern example.
If someone has AIDS and they conceive does that mean that the child will be condemned? Does that mean the child is less in the sight of God? Obviously not. We as Christians need to be careful in the way we interpret verses.
may I suggest you look again at Kristina 's post, match it against Jesusiskingokings response then you will see your point and that is not different.
What I suppose the kids what to know is why the offsprings of Gehazi should suffer for a crime of their fore-father.
They understood that it is okay if the father is punished but not his children and children after.
Of course the children are right as the Bible supports their reasoning.
I have given some verses that supports the reasoning.
And that is just what you have explained in other words you probably need tolookat my post again too.
Your post is in line with Jessuiskingofkings and that was my position too.
you see my problem is i understand your answers but will a child?
will the child be able to apply the same reasoning?
I dont want to confuse them.
the main issue is the children rather than the actual answer i guess.
so what do you guys think??
thanks for the replies they are all great. God Bless u all!!!! ;)
Kristina123
There are many situations in the Bible where the offsprings carry the curse of their father but only total death was contained in Adam to be transfered to us. This is because all the human race were carried inside Adam then branched from him. Other cases of severe punishment that could be meditated upon are like death penalty to a whole town or tribe who were of no hope and were under the total will of the devil - to clean the earth and prevent further tranfer of their corruption to others - like during fighting an epidemy, drastic measures are done.
The flood at the time of Noah is a severe situation were all the human race, except Noah and his family, were removed to clean the earth and start it afresh, with lots of changes in earth's nature, weather, farming and feeding habits. Yet one of the Noah's family was later on cursed together with all his offspring. A curse like this one does not mean spiritual death to the cursed but a material punishment to set an example so the others will respect God and His wisdom, commandments and words to us.
Among the plagues to Egypt was the death of all the first born children (who is considered the second head of a family).
Deuteronomy 28: Blessings for Obedience
1 If you fully obey the LORD your God and carefully follow all his commands I give you today, the LORD your God will set you high above all the nations on earth. 2 All these blessings will come upon you and accompany you if you obey the LORD your God:
3 You will be blessed in the city and blessed in the country.
still in Deuteronomy 28: Curses for Disobedience
58 If you do not carefully follow all the words of this law, which are written in this book, and do not revere this glorious and awesome name—the LORD your God- 59 the LORD will send fearful plagues on you and your descendants, harsh and prolonged disasters, and severe and lingering illnesses. 60 He will bring upon you all the diseases of Egypt that you dreaded, and they will cling to you. 61 The LORD will also bring on you every kind of sickness and disaster not recorded in this Book of the Law, until you are destroyed.
God knows the deepest concealed thoughts. He will never be tricked and of course He never jokes. God's status is above everybody and everything, and His wisdom is beyond our minds.
To explain to children I suggest:
* God does not punish without warnings and second chance.
Your parents warn you: do not play with fire so you don't get hurt. What will happen if one disobeys and is curious about playing with fire? He gets hurt and may be burn the whole house.
* If someone was leprous in the OT she/he was considered not pure (not clean, even as a physical sign of sin) so he must be separated and isolated from the rest of the society till he would be cured. Gahzy knew that very well, but he sinned and was rejected by God (I do not wish to see you or any piece of you anymore so do not even send any of your family).
* In many cases when someone does bad things they may be bad to others also not only to her/him (there may be victims - explain it by examples).
* Cheating or tricking a man of God is a direct humiliation to God who sent him in His name and it is also a direct offense to the Holy Spirit. God does not allow interfering with His righteousness. No one with brains would dare to do that, what then about the man who served, helped and lived with the man of God, hearing his teaching and seeing his good deeds, daily witnessing the Glory of God. (an idea: were the things he took by trickery going to be used by his family too and thus directly educating them that tricking God is OK?)
* Gehazi was more displeasing to God in that he sinned in the name of God's man. His family members will always remember his sin and he will be hurt by that every day, because he chose foolishness instead of God's loving ways. They will always avoid this sin and all generations will learn from what happened.
Plus there is one more thing I would like to address, what is the aim of your story?… if you don’t have something set for the kids to profit from… then why are giving the story… in every story you have to have the aim of the story, if I listened to your story, according to your summary… I would learn jack mesh aref eh!.. have an aim, or a reason for your lesson… what these kids learn is around you neck… if you teach them wrong… you’ll be damned, if you teach them the right you will rejoice… take it more seriously… please…
Peace and love
your answer does not resolve my issue i understand the reasoning behind Gods Judgment.
the main issue is how do i explain the fairness or lack of in the judgement that is what the kids are failing to understand not the reasoning behind such a decision. so as Christ 4 Life rightly stated u did not answer the question!
and as for your other remarks i follow a program when giving the lesson i dont just turn up and think of a story to tell the kids. yes every story has an aim and we always discuss this in the class. but the girl simply asked a very good question that i beleive i didnt know how to answer and i dont beleive that there is any servant who knows the answer to every question.
i was only setting a quick summary in order to explain my point and if u didnt learn anything well maybe you should read the story in the Bible.
i take my service very seriously and i beleive you dont even know me to pass judgment as you did. iam not going to justify my teaching methods to you and if you have any complaints well you should make a written complaint and send it to the the Sunday school superintendint if u want details you can PM me.
and if your a person who readily passes judgment well your not so cool.
Kristina123
Kristina123
Gehazi was most likely in a state of serious deep remorses after the curse. He had to admit he sinned, made sour repentance and taught his family to pray heartly to the Lord every hour of the day for their healing and forgiveness. He probably had to ask them to respect the Lord and His prophet Elisha and never to think or behave like he did.
lol... also why did you get offended... and your temper was so hasty to judge? Is that the true response of a servant? Did saint Anthony curse out the naked bathing female, when she gave him advice? No, he accepted it... a true servant is the one that knows he is THE SERVANT....
lol... for your question... I’m a person that worked with children... for more than 6-7 years... I have even studied them... just to show you that you’re not the only one that takes your service seriously... I always studied my age groups... and me reading a lesson like that... I would know for sure they will bring such a question up... because of the curiosity of the child... "How could a sooo loving God... give such a crucial punishment?" I would've thought of a more acceptable answer.... but I responded to your question... in a generic way... in a philosophical way! and that was just my input on such question... that is why I never quoted any of the fathers... I never said THIS IS THE ANSWER! lol... you were too offended by the rest of the message... you didn’t care much to look into the specifics of my comment... lol.... you’re a GREAT servant yakhty... don’t give me the blame of judging others... lol... if you know Bishoy... you would’ve never passed such a judgment yourself ;) lol... ehhh its all cool.... lol... I don’t care if I’m “not cool” in your sight... or anybody's sight... I said what was on my mind... to tell you the truth, that’s cooler than you think... lol...
as I said before... peace and love!
I say all in peace and in love... not to offend anyone...
this message is in reply to the above statement made by SuperMan (BAM) (AKA or FKA socoolbishoy)
firstly why the name change?
secondly i dont know why you are laughing, this of course is implied from the overuse of the acronym lol. i dont find the topic funny at all. talking of taking things seriously maybe you should take some of the advice you so readily dish out.
the fact that you said i dont take things seriously leads to one comprehending that indirectly you were labeling me a bad servant. anyway i dont think im a great servant but i know i take it seriously.
i have also worked with children for the same amount of time you claim to have done and also studied them in the same manner.
there is nothing wrong with speaking your mind but to do so in a manner like you did is so not cool. you must have all the facts prior to making such comments and also passing judgment (which you did).
i, at no stage judged you i simply stated that "IF" you were a person who judges..... maybe you need to search for the 'specifics of my comments' just as i did yours.
and again you failed to answer the question philosophically or otherwise.
and lastly just a comment in passing please dont call me 'yakhty'
Kristina123
this message is in reply to the above comment by Hardyakka.
like i said this is no laughing matter and if u think its a joke well i suggest you go make a joke of it elsewhere.
if you would like to make a comment or reply that is somewhat constructive then do so otherwise start another thread where you can make light of these issues and those who share your "sense of humour" may humour you there.
Kristina123
Also if you study kids, you should’ve known such a statement would catch the attention of a child… lol… but okay… mabrook again… lol LOL… again I ask you to read my comment… I never judged you… I judged an action… which according to the bible… is perfectly okay…. Lol… its all cool though… also you’re the one that didn’t give any facts… I responded according to your message… so ummm… okay again I will say I don’t care of what you think… Im speaking my mind… lol.. Ummm, okay! Lol… Ummm do we have to go through this again... lol… do you seriously want to bring that up again… or is it that you lack subjects to attack… lol… if that’s the case yakhty… leave me out of it…
Okay tasony… or okhty… in Arabic…
And hardyakka amen to you… yakhty
And nene 107… amen to you too yakhty…
Okay peace and love!
what are you talking about?? okay? Mabrook? what statement are you referring to??? Likewise!
(but of course i would have espoused this statement in a more grammatically correct manner.)
Look im not going to discuss this any further with you. like i said earlier if you are not going to engage in some form of constructive discussion then i will no longer respond to this childish attack.
Kristina123
NB: if you continue to call either myself or the other members of this forum "yakhty" that is merely a reflection of your poor language skills. Also that term, when used in that manner is actually both rude and offensive.
Yet I’ve noticed you like to choose what you WANT others to say.... LOL... well I’m sorry... I’m not like that... and nene can say ouch... for no reason if she wants to... its not your business... you don’t have to requote her for no reason...
LOL... okay there... read your last post... and read my last post... and you being a "fair" person... why don’t you judge the POSTS, I never started attacking... if anything... I was trying to make peace... yet you chose to attack... yallah... rebena ma3ky....
childish attacks... lol... that’s really old... ya I will tell you that now... people usually use that excuse when they run out of things to say... lol... wow... plus yallah Im a child... lol... I don’t mind it... I would love to enter the kingdom of heaven.... lol
Unlike you... I’m still talking about the original topic... lol... ya, whose attacking for the hell of attacking again? Okay you’re “smart”! yay... lets all be happy... but oh boy... hold on I see a plank in you’re eye.... do you really want to go back and find the grammatical mistakes of each other? I’m up for it if you are… but we’ll keep it off the forum… it will be for each others’ gratification!
yallah! peace and love!
so much for the good old Coptic Orthodox attitude!!!
lol
it seems like SuperMAN and Kristina123 are trying to out do eachother...
Personally think that all opinions were good! and useful... i also serve a yr 5 class and i know if i gave them an answer like what superman suggested it would of been enough for them.
Elisha didn't want the stuff because the guy used to have leprocy
notice that Gehazi took his clothes
Scientifically he should get leprocy
Also, it does not mean that his children are not permitted to recieve salvation.
This world is not perfect. Heaven is perfect. Earth has flaws (diseases such as AIDS through inheritance)
We strive for the heavenly because it is perfect and beautiful
sorry for the late comment
Take a second to pray for me...thank you