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Coptic support for Hizbollah
I just came across this article about Coptic support for Hizbollah. -- > http://www.islam-online.net/English/News/2006-07/31/03.shtml
Whilst i personally dont support everything Hizbollah does, it is great to see them giving the Israeli army a bit of a run for their money. Also, it is good to see Copts taking an active interest in the Middle East and actually being patriotic..
I've always thought Coptics (mostly out of Egypt though) do not express any form of nationalism (rather often see fit to badmouth Egypt), so im really happy to see this..
Ma salaama, and please keep the victims of Lebanon in your prayers.
Matt
Whilst i personally dont support everything Hizbollah does, it is great to see them giving the Israeli army a bit of a run for their money. Also, it is good to see Copts taking an active interest in the Middle East and actually being patriotic..
I've always thought Coptics (mostly out of Egypt though) do not express any form of nationalism (rather often see fit to badmouth Egypt), so im really happy to see this..
Ma salaama, and please keep the victims of Lebanon in your prayers.
Matt
Comments
While Israel had and has its share of crimes, they are right on this one. Understand that Arabs might hate Israel, but they fear them and respect them to the utmost, and it is the only dialogue that Arabs understand: They dialogue of power and might.
Im not saying that Israel doesnt have a right to defend themself. They do. But their actions are just not defensive. I really believe Israel is only seeking to expand itself. Look at the Israeli flag - the star of David and 2 lines. Do you know what those lines represent? The Nile and the Eurphrates river. This rivers are represented on the Israeli flag because the Zionists believe that the land of Israel is supposed to stretch from the Nile to the Eurphrates (they think thats what God promised). This example alone really shows how much Israel will not be content with their current land size. Israel does not want peace.
Therefore there is no way i could ever agree that Israel is "right on this one".
Rabana maak,
Matt
2 Hear my cry for mercy
as I call to you for help,
as I lift up my hands
toward your Most Holy Place.
3 Do not drag me away with the wicked,
with those who do evil,
who speak cordially with their neighbors
but harbor malice in their hearts.
4 Repay them for their deeds
and for their evil work;
repay them for what their hands have done
and bring back upon them what they deserve.
Matthew 5: Love for Enemies
43"You have heard that it was said, 'Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.' 44But I tell you: Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45that you may be sons of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. 46If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? 47And if you greet only your brothers, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that? 48Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.
Brethren and sisters, I believe it is not christian to wish harm even to whoever you consider your enemy. You will be blessed if you pray for all parties indulging in this human catastrophy, including their dead, the wounded and the homeless. Lord have mercy on humanity and lead them to wiser deeds.
By no means are Hizballah the innocent guys who have been attacked, such is nonsense. I am not sure how a generalization was made that Copts support this terror group, who if in power will exterminate christians.
What did Hizballah gain from their childish acts that they used to provoke Israel ? How are they held in any positive light when they take civilizans as their shield and inflict so much damage on their country ? Where exactly did Israel go wrong in bombing their infrastructure and their rocket bases, which happened to be in civilian places ? Are the civilians victims? Sure, but their real killer is Hizballah and not the Jewish nation.
If we want to go deeper and discuss the roots of the hatred of all muslims, whether sunnis or shias to the Jews, then let us open their holy books and sacred teachings and maybe take a look at their bloody history against the Jews since the beginning and ask how can a christian possibly support such hate?
To say that one side is wrong and one side is right, or that one side deserves our support while the other does not is not logical in this situation. Both sides are guilty of crimes against humanity, both sides are in the wrong in my opinion.
Hizbollah is an Islamic fundamentalist group that has terrorized and provked Israeli civilians and military persons. "Radical Islam" or just plain old fashioned Islam as we know it has two main enemies, El yahood (The Jews) and Ahl al Qitab (The people of the book, aka Christians) and as of now Jews happen to be the more hated of the two because of various reasons. One reason is their refusal to accept Mohammad's "Prophethood" and of course their overthrow of the Palestinian state and the establishment of an Israeli state in its place. If Hizbollah were to conquer Israel tomorrow it would eventually in time divert its efforts on Christians as is the case with other Islamic groups (i.e. Al Qaida, Al Ekhwan, Al Jama3at, etc...).
Israel on the other hand has never been a "friend" of the church so to speak, but in reality has been a source of much tribulation and troubles for Christians over the years and it was their inflammatory attitudes towards Christians that caused some to claim that St. John Chrysostom, St. Theophilus I, St. Cyril pillar of the faith, St. Athanasius, and other church fathers of being anti-semites. It is no secret that American media is strongly biased to the Israeli cause, just watch Fox News and they will blatently say it. Israel is by no means a peace loving state, they are only peace loving when things are going their way, but then again, who isn't? Let us not forget that it was a Jew who killed Itzaq Rabin and not a Palestinian. This is also the same Jewish state that will not return out monastery land which seized from us in Jerusalem.
Support for either of these polities would be absurd and illogical. We are being asked to support one of two evil entities, in my opinion; some might say, "Well, this one is less evil than that," but at the end of the day they are both evil and you're left with that old phrase, "choose your poison."
Robert
Just wondering, what's the monastery that we had in Jerusalem that Israel has taken?
Rabana maak,
Matt
How many more innocent lebanese lives will equate the adopted two ISRAELIs?
Were the two killed, and why were they kidnapped?
Is the threat to set Lebanon backward 20 years a result of the kidnap or a precalculated policy inwaiting?
Who is Hisbollah and what led to its formation? Is Hisbollah's popularity a result of oppression or true love by its people?
How many non Jews are in Israeli prisons and how amny of such are really terrorists? How true are western efforts to the middle east problems?
Is any one race superior to another so that it does not matter howmany inferior is killed?
Is the kidnap of the soldiers the real reason for the awesome destruction of lives and properties?
How many more innocent lebanese lives will equate the adopted two ISRAELIs?
Were the two killed, and why were they kidnapped?
Is the threat to set Lebanon backward 20 years a result of the kidnap or a precalculated policy inwaiting?
Who is Hisbollah and what led to its formation? Is Hisbollah's popularity a result of oppression or true love by its people?
How many non Jews are in Israeli prisons and how amny of such are really terrorists? How true are western efforts to the middle east problems?
Is any one race superior to another so that it does not matter howmany inferior is killed?
1 - While the kidnap of the two israeli soldiers partly triggered the invasion it is clear that the plans to invade must have been made a while ago. This is obvious because the invasion has been so extensive etc. Furthermore, the war has been recieved with much public support by the Israeli's and so its good for the new Israeli Prime Minister.
2 - Hmm... Well 1100 innocent Lebanese civilians have already been slaughtered (with at least a third being children). 5000 people have also been injured, and a million Lebanese have been displaced. As for how many more Lebanese civilians need to die, you should probably ask Ehud Olmert and Amir Peretz.
3 - So far the the two Israeli soldiers have not been killed (to our knowledge anyway). Its silly to kill them because they are always good bargaining chips to get Palestinian/Lebanese prisoners released. They were kidnapped by Hizbollah in response to Israeli aggression in Gaza, which was sparked by the kidnap of one Israeli soldier who was kidnapped because of incursions, the occupation, and because of the incident in which an Israeli ship shot Palestinians at a beach (by accident) killing at least a dozen.
4 - Certainly what has happened will set Lebanon back a long way! This is because infrastructure has been so destroyed. For example right now every land path to Beirut has been destroyed. Bridges have been blown up, and then the Israeli's have then gone and blown up the pillars of the bridge. What reason can be provided for such other than Israel wanting to set Lebanon back 20 years??
5 - As for what is Hizbollah.. Well the Israeli government will say its a terrorist organisation, and Arabs will say it is legitimate resistance. It was formed in 1982 after the PLO was kicked out of Lebanon by Israel, and Israeli forces remained in Lebanon. Its funny really because Hizbollah was formed in direct response to Israel's aggressions etc, so Israel can thank itself for Hizbollah's formation!
Hizbollah has such wide-spread support of Lebanese (Christians and Lebanese) for a number of reasons. Firstly the country is at war so people are unified against the enemy. Secondly Hizbollah has built many schools, hospitals, roads, child-care centres etc, therefore they had already won the hearts of many. Thirdly, Israel has bombed many Christian villages now so Lebanese Christians are understandably pretty angry!
6 - At present there are 10,000 Palestinian males in Israeli jails (some of them secret). Certainly most of them are not terrorists. Remember Palestinians can be arrested for things as trivial as: throwing rocks at soldiers, having a Palestinian flag in Israeli terroritory, or having a picture of Yasser Arafat. In 1999 the International Red Cross estimated that 45% of Palestinian males aged between 25-49 has spent some time in an Israeli jail! An astounding statistic, and certainly that percentage has increased a lot since then! Its also important to remember that Israel is the only country in the world that has legalised torture as well!!
7 - On the whole Western efforts can be quite helpful - Germany, France, and other members of the EU genuinely want a peaceful settelment of disputes. BUT the United States doesnt have the politcial will to support such plans. The United States has been the staunchest supporter of Israel anywhere, and in fact they have continued to supply Israel with weapons throughout this conflict. They also give Israel US$4.5 billion a year in aid (remember Israel is the 16th richest country in the world, so that is money they dont need!). The United States has said they are unhappy with a ceasefire now, and will only agree to one when Israel wants one. Its quite sickening that the world's hegemon would countinue to support a terrorist state like Israel, particulary when it is clear that Lebanese civilians are paying the price!
8 - Is there a superior race? What a silly question! Of course there is!! EGYPTIANS!!!!!!! We are just the best people in the world, flawless, humble, honest, and peace-loving! Im joking of course, though i can say with full certainty that Egyptians are, on the whole, good people (even if they gossip like uncontrollably).
Certainly Lebanese life is not inferior to Israeli life, and vice versa. However both sides see the other as inferior and so there is a lack of concern when civilians die. I do think that there is a general consensus in the media though that Lebanese life is worth less than Israeli life because Israel gets the lion share of attention on channels such as CNN, FOX etc. As ive said 1100 Lebanese civilians have been killed, whereas only 80 Israeli's have died. An unreal statistic that it often not reported.
Anyway, ma salaama
Matt
i read the article but i noticed that the writer may have confused coptics with catholics.
the bishop who has spoken to the writer is from the catholic community not coptic. another man from the coptic community is raising funds.
so as i understand it is the Catholic church of Egypt who is supporting Hizbollah but the Copts are only raising funds?!?!??!
is that the case????
kristina123
It's have been a very long time since I visited the forums; but when I visisited, I couldn't help but notice this topic.
Frstly, I'd like to say that we should pray for the peace of this world, and that God may protect the weak and the innocent of armed conflicts (yet, let his will be). Amen
In Mattew 24:6 and Mark 13:7, Jesus says thay "you will hear of wars and rumors of wars," yet we should not be troubled for the end is not yet. No, this is not new my friends. It's the old war, returned.
As Copts we should not see this as some other Christinans (in the US) see it; and that it is the beggining of the conflict that will bring all nations to submission of Israel, where after Jesus comes and and reigns on earth for 1000 years.
We do not beleive this but that "the gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come." Mattew 24:14. By the way, I don't know how the gospel is supposed to prached to all nations or if it's a literate statement, maybe that should be the subject of another dscussion. The point is that Jesus is not siding with either, so from a Christian prespective, we shouldn't either.
However, every one has their political opinion (especially me), but we do not mix this with official church views, because the church should be above politics (well...that didn't always happen)but that's not its aim, nor concern.
It's like when some athiests once asked why didn't Jesus free the slaves when he was on earth?
The answer is:
"There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus." Galations 3:28. Today he may say, nor american nor arab (as long as they believe in Christ).
Love,
His Son
Today it is Palestine, Iraq,Iran,Syria, & Afghanistan .....it is very strange that terrorism is the common reason for the attention and threat by the west against these countries.
For those who have been following events in these countries and international policies, reasons put foward by the west to qualify a nation bad tend to vary and change with every opportunity.
While it is clear that Osama lived and operated from Afghanistan, the war in Iraq had been the result of wmd, terrorisim, insurgents, Islamic fundamentalism etc. Whichever reason suites at a given time, that is applied.
I feel the truth need to be told: terrorism must be defined and determined by an impartial body.
Today it is those countries,who knows whose turn it will be tomorrow .
This is when one can speak while the opportunity still exists.....so shout foul before it is too late. Otherwise by the time they will come for you there may be no one left to cry foul.
Wars are fought all over the world over territories and independence and die hard nationalists willalways defend their nation.....are these terrorists?
Those who know some Middle East history, not the Jezirah version, will be able to discern this pattern of stupidity in the arabic politian behavior since ages. Those who know about the 1967 six day war, in which Israel totally humilated Egypt, Syria and Jordan will understand that Nasser provoked Israel by an unexplained attack on their ships in the Red Sea. The level of victory also suggests the presence of plans to respond to any challenge of Israel's , like any other nation, and it is just a sign of a civilized nation and a disciplined army that leaves nothing to chance.
Israel's attack on Lebanon is an attack on the infra structure that Hizbollah uses to attack the civilians of Israel. It is Israel's right to defend itself by such means, and it is the right of any nation to do whatever they see appropriate when they are attacked as long as they donot target civilians. While of course attacking the Israeli civilians does not concern the Hizbollah supporters, they are Jews after all, the same supporters cry for each child that falls because Hizbollah uses them as human shields. They fail to understand that the responsibility for the killing of children is solely that of Hizbollah.
The alleged support that Hizbollah enjoys in Lebanon is only among Shia's, which is understood and can be explained to those who lack knowledge about islamic principles and how muslims view their fight against kafirs. It should not be viewed in isolation of Iran's challenge of the West on one hand,and islamic principles on the other. No generalization is true about the lebanese solidarity, for christians donot support Hizbollah, let alone Copts who have no real basis to support Nasrallah.
What remains unanswered also by Hizbollah's supporters is to explain the support of Iran to their Lebanon darling. As said before, and overlooked by the supporters of Hizbollah on this site, such organizations thrive on the conflict and it is in their best interest to continue.
It is not a surpirse or a coincidence that whenever peace talks resumes between reasonable arabic leaders like Abo Mazen and Israel, that such actions by terror groups are resumed. hmmmmmm .... or maybe I should ask Nasrallah, as he is the happiest man with the presence of this conflict and money keeps pouring into his pockets. To appeal to the number of Lebanese people dying, innocent as they are, is a direct challenge to you to explain to us whether the childish action of kidnapping the Israelis was worth this. The real killer is Hizbollah, they bear the sole responsibility for the whole mess. This is true, and Israel has and will exchange them with thousands of arabs. In 1982, 7500 terrorist from the PLO were exchanged, alive, for 3 (yes three) corps of Israeli civilians the PLO have kidnapped and slaugthered. Do the math, and figure out who values the life (or even the corps) of their people more.
While Hizbollah is ready to offer a whole country as a price for their ambitions and to please their masters in Qum and Teheran, ready to kill children to have more money, Israel actually values their own. You have to admire that. In islamic quarters, mind you. Israel have been precise about their targets, and they are all military targets that are used by Hizbollah to attack Israel. Should they be used from a residential area, then be it, it is the fault of Hizbollah that they use human shields and the Lebanese people, if non-shia are dead among the victims, because they did not deal with the presence of Hizbollah among them. Allowing somebody to attack from your house will result in the destruction of your house, easy and simple. PLO and Hizbollah have little to do with each other, because they are different fundamentally in idology. Sunnah and Shia's hate each other more than they hate the Jews, and Hizbollah is only formed by Iran in an attempt to control the region after the successful 1979 islamic revolution in Iran. It is called" exporting the revolution" by Ayat Allah Kohemni in his book "Al-Waselah", in which he makes clear that this is the intention of Iran's new regime. Lebanon, at the time, was in a civil was, and it was a good place to start. This led to the Hizbollah establishment, by Iran and not by Lebanese people who were at the time dominantely christian.
Hizbollah supporters fail to understand that the South of lebanon became a little Iran, christians were pushed out.
Speaking about PLO, who apparently are presented as the legitmate defender of rights in lebanon at the time, one must note that they formed their own country within Lebanon, patrolling the Lebanese cars and civilians and imposing taxes on Lebanese. Overlooking such facts only expose a one sided view that is voiced by the arabic channels and that are echoed on forums without discernment.
In the end, the sarcasm about "Hizbollah formed by Israel" , as weak validity as it has, is misplaced. Israel has the means of destroying any force and as such do not lose sleep over Hizbollah or any other "Hizb". Hizbollah, not Lebanon, is at war. Let us get this straight. Fouad Saniorah, the PM of Lebanon, has opposed to issue any offical statement to show any support for Hizbollah.
Christians in Lebanon know and have lived under a dominantly christian Lebanon, and they know the difference. With the presence of Hizbollah, PLO, Kataeb El-Aksah, Hamas and other terrorist irganization,in addition to the presence of Palestinians, the source of all trouble and treason, Lebanon was destroyed.
It did not start in July 2006, it started in the mid 70's after Jordon kicked out all the Palestinians for their conspiracy against King Hussein in what is called "black September 1970" and their immigration in Lebanon by the aid of Nabih Beri and Soliman Ferengah, destroying what was indeed a united tolerant country. How do you know about their nature that you can claim with all certainity that they are not engaged in terrorist actions? ...and also bombing Israeli places,kidnapping Israeli children and women. By the way, in any country, throwing anything at military people or even civilians is a crime punishable with prison, and having a flag of an enemy on your territory specially during times of war is not tolerated at all. It is not an Israeli thing only and I do not believe that exceptions to simple human rights,which is the right to protect yourself, should be taken from Israelis. Because 45 % of males of what was called Palestine are criminals and live in a society and under a corrupt leadership (PLO and Hamas) that gives them no chance for improvement, and as such they turn towards Israel. How does such stat support your case? It hurts it more and more as you simply prove that there is no means of dealing with a population that is dominantly terrorist except by putting them into prisons.
On the other hand, 20% of Palestinians, according to yasser Arafat after the Oslo agreement in 1993, are traitors and cooperate with the Musad, one of the most superior intelligence services in history. That is the true color of Palestinians , the muslims among them. In fact, it was a big problem for Israel on how they are going to protect their "functionares". True, this is what politics is all about. Control the media, the economy and you will have the politicians in your pocket. If Arabs had the same chance , they would do it, and they have began to control Europe. by their high birth rates. This is the real challenge to the whole world, for with the fall of Europe in the hands of muslims by the end of the century it will be a disaster.
So, again, how this supports your thesis is not really clear. It just shows that Jews, while at many times exercising their power for their own benefit against the benefit of a country, have to be admired for their brilliance.
By the way, Egypt gets 2.2 billions from the US and more than that from the EU, and the sum of foreign aid for Egypt exceeds that of Israel. It is a clear example of the fact that it is not the aid that matters but the system that is a product of culture and ,mind you, of a brilliant mind.
As much as the US supports Israel unconditionally, and it is understood because the current corrupt administration of the US is composed of Neo-cons and Jewish people, I do not blame the for the support of Israel's stance on Hizbollah.
As for the EU, they are also driven by their own agenda. Muslims are by far more influential in Europe, and the politicians there have to buy their votes. Politics, no right or wrong, just politics. It has to be dealt with as a reality and not as truth. While you may have attempted a joke, and it is a good one, I believe the question has nothing to do with the topic and was attacking a strawman to begin with, together with those who tried to give a religious christian outlook to the problem. Be careful when you use "Lebanese" generalizations, for there are Maronites, Deruz, Shias, Sunnis, Alawis and many other sects in Lebanon. The Copts,while not in the conflict, are the 19th sect in Lebanon.
You better use muslim against jewish comparison. Muslim "theology" is clear enough for those who have the basic understanding of arabic and are educated about their authentic books. and the root of the problem is that muslims cannot live in peace with any other minority or even slight majority as long as they can overturn them. It is the basis for all problems and will be for the coming few decades as they have gained power.
Israel knows exactly how to deal with muslims. Muslims envy and hate power, but respect it. Take a look at the islamic history and such fact will be very clear. It is the only way to deal with muslims of any race, to cut the way for you or anybody else to pick up another strawman argument
While american media is biased towards Israel, European media is biased against them and arabic media, if you can call jezirah and Manar, Iqra and other Tv channels such, is propagating ignorance and lies among arabic viewers. So your argument fails again.
Anyways, ma3ah alf slamah.