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When do we sit?
Hey guys i have a question
In the mass when the epistle is read after a little while everyone sits down. How do we know when to sit? ???
I just sit when everyone else sits :-[ heheh it would be nice to know ;)
thanks
In the mass when the epistle is read after a little while everyone sits down. How do we know when to sit? ???
I just sit when everyone else sits :-[ heheh it would be nice to know ;)
thanks
Comments
whenever abona is using el shorya we stand up, and when he is not we sit down! and when he is using el shorya and going around the church and el masbah we stand up! gospel ofcourse we stand up!
hope that helps
One other thing, apparently the Russian Orthodox Church dont have chairs in the church during the mass so that everyone has to stand up when praying. Correct me if im wrong please :-\
One other thing, apparently the Russian Orthodox Church dont have chairs in the church during the mass so that everyone has to stand up when praying. Correct me if im wrong please :-\
This is true of the whole Eastern Orthodox Church, not just in Russia (although Greek and Syrian parishes in America and Western Europe have begun adopting pews).
Even in those parishes that do have seats, you will spend most of your time standing.
This is a good article on why we don't use pews:
http://www.orthodoxinfo.com/praxis/pews.aspx
and the monks say that standing up is like a sacrifice we offer to God in order that we may get a blessing
also Abouna stands during the whole mass.
Kristina123
http://www.orthodoxinfo.com/praxis/pews.aspx
No offence, but it seems like a pretty silly article in my opinion: Where are they supposed go? That's just plain absurd; they make it sound like Church go-ers are going to start living it up because of their experience with sitting on pews for 5-10 mins every hour or so at Sunday Liturgy. This is just amusing to say the least. Come on, do you really expect anyone to take this seriously? I know my responses aren't very substantive but that's just because there's nothing substantive to respond to in the first place.
I don't intend any disrespect to those whose parishes do not have pews, but to promote some sort of an apologetic that attempts to argue that the presence of pews undermines our "self-understanding as Orthodox Christians" is just plain ridiculous in my opinion.
I accidently deleted Orthodox11's reply. My deepest apologies.
No worries, wasn't important anyways ;)
You noted some of the more legitimate objections (e.g. pews being an obstacle to the performance of metania's) to which I replied with the argument that such problems can be solved by carefully planned and well thought out design and architecture. They don't point to anything necessarily "bad" about pews in and of themselves.
You also, I believe, pointed out that pews are a "Liturgical innovation" (or something to that effect). As far "Liturgical innovations" go, you will find that many practices we currently accept as common and normative (e.g. taking Communion with a small spoon) would have been quite innovative and even un-canonical in the days of our Fathers (depending on jurisdiction ofcourse).
yeah... we sit basicaly whenever abona is using the shorya! and during communion!
and you don't have to stand all the time! u can sit if ur back starts to hurt or your feet! but it would be nice to stand! cuz our lord jesus went through alot for us! and to me simpliy standing up in his church won't kill us!
GBWU
pray for me
ur sis in faith
bentBABAyasooa`
Well you did have some valid points to make.
You noted some of the more legitimate objections (e.g. pews being an obstacle to the performance of metania's) to which I replied with the argument that such problems can be solved by carefully planned and well thought out design and architecture. They don't point to anything necessarily "bad" about pews in and of themselves.
With regards to processions, this is possible with large parishes, but in small ones it isn't.
With regards to prostrations, my own parish does have seats, but they are designed in such a way that the actual seats can be flipped up, which gives you quite a bit more room (this is the case in most Greek parishes). However, although it does make kneeling and bows from the waste possible, prostrations are still difficult - You have to tuck your head under the seat in front, so hardly ideal (God knows how many times I've bumped my head on the way back up!)
And if you put the rows of seats so far away from eachother that prostrations could be made properly, it would reduce the capacity of the building by atleast a quarter, which seems like a waste to me. The difference, in my opinion, is that this innovation is an entirely unecessary one. Moreover, (in the EOC atleast) it has been introduced for the wrong reasons.
The practice of receiving Communion with a small spoon came into existance because of Church growth, as a way of accommodating larger congregations. The Catholics dealt with it by only giving out the Body of Christ (I know which solution I prefer).
I disagree with the author of the article that pews teach people to "live it up" to use your words. I do, however, believe that the introduction of pews into parishes was made to accomodate people with such an attitude.
In the West, particularly in America, there is very little focus of self-denial among the faithful (a reflection of the society in which they live), and it is these people that are responsible for introducing pews. Pews are not "relevant" in the 21st century.
I also think that they are a way to make Orthodoxy "acceptable" to the American people. Many (most?) priests in America are clean-shaven, wear anglican suits with dog-collars, churches have pipe organs and use Catholic-style choir music, etc.
I am not suggesting a pipe-organ undermines Orthodoxy or that western music is in itself heretical. I'm just using these as examples of how the Church in the west has adopted a number of practices and customs from Protestant and Catholic churches in order to make themselves more acceptable to Western society; a strategy I don't particularly agree with.
In addition to these to points (practical issues and pews being introduced for the wrong reasons), I also found (and this is only my personal experience) that pews turn the faithful from participants of the Liturgy into spectators, and that attentiveness is greatly reduced.
This is fine if one is a Protestant and a service consists of the priest/pastor doing everything, and the people only occasionally getting up to sing hymn x from the hymn-book.
But, as you know, this is not the case with Orthodox liturgies.
Of course, one could say that it does not need to be this way, and that people can still sit and pay attention. True, but from my experience this just isn't the case with most people.
Except for providing a place to hang your coat or put your bag, I just cannot think of any reason to have pews.
As I said, I, like the author of the article, am not calling for a "pewoclasm" and I think it should be a question of pastoral discretion.
Please note that everything I have said is in the context of the EOC, as was my original post on this issue to Coptic Dragon's question r.e. the Russian Church.
I apologise for this rant.
I also think that they are a way to make Orthodoxy "acceptable" to the American people. Many (most?) priests in America are clean-shaven, wear anglican suits with dog-collars, churches have pipe organs and use Catholic-style choir music, etc.
I am not suggesting a pipe-organ undermines Orthodoxy or that western music is in itself heretical. I'm just using these as examples of how the Church in the west has adopted a number of practices and customs from Protestant and Catholic churches in order to make themselves more acceptable to Western society; a strategy I don't particularly agree with.
I don't know what Churches exactly that you are talking about in America that have adopted these customs, but I know that the Coptic Orthodox Churches in America, at least the ones that I've been to, have not adopted these customs.
In addition to the above, I've never seen a Coptic priest with a suit on... Maybe this occurs in the other churches?
Like I said at the end of my post, I was talking about some jurisdictions in the EOC (Greek, Syrian and OCA) in the West (mainly the USA), not the Coptic Church.
hey kristina123
yeah... we sit basicaly whenever abona is using the shorya! and during communion!
and you don't have to stand all the time! u can sit if ur back starts to hurt or your feet! but it would be nice to stand! cuz our lord jesus went through alot for us! and to me simpliy standing up in his church won't kill us!
GBWU
pray for me
ur sis in faith
bentBABAyasooa`
mmhmm thats right
shouldn't the question be when do we stand?
Also, as told by my sunday skool teacher, ther was one monk who found it sinful (well not sinful but more disrespectful) to bend ones knee whilst praying!!!
duringany gospel and trey to stand up as much as possible.
I strongly agree (again) with orthodox11, and I really hope that we as Orthodox Christians (at least) know the value of standing up and doing prostrations all the time during the services, and the Masses (excepting the meetings of course) so that we offer our bodies as a sacrifice to God. I have to be honest, I do sit down, but just so that I am not singled out as the show-off in the Orthodox Church. But it really doesn't make any sense to me to sit down while St Paul is being read, or St Peter, or St James, or the Acts. We not only give respect to these saints, but also to the word of God; just like the Gospel, and the psalms. I think we all agree that it is the Word of God whichever chapter, or book is being read, don't we? So I think it is really a good thing for people who choose to stand up during the whole Mass, and rest their feet only when doing prostrations (offering sacrifice in a different way). Maybe I would take some excuse for the long services, like Palm Sunday, Maundy Thursday, and Good Friday, although it doesn't seem quite right, does it? I am meant to stand up even longer during those services :)
Correct me if I am wrong, I think the word "pew" means the long church seat that we sit down on.
God bless you all and please pray for me.
You are quite right about 'pews'. Western Churches have rows of long seats in which the congregation sit for large portions of the service, usually only standing for the Gospel and for the 'peace'. It is quite amusing to think that anyone imagines that one can 'relax' in a pew; they are the most uncomfortable seats known to man and woman - it is much more comfortable to stand!
Increasingly in the west new churches do not have them, because they are fixed in place. I note, however, that the beautiful new Coptic Cathedral of St. George in Stevenage (surely one of the most beautiful new ecclesiastical structures of our times) does have pews. I don't know why. I would not, however, get hung up on it. If it is penitential discomfort you are after, sitting in a pew for an hour or so is certainly high up on the scale of discomfort.
My own British Orthodox Church has two old Anglican pews on the side where we can sit for the readings and for the sermon. Those of us whose physical condition and age necessitate sitting from time to time, do so; not, as I say, that we get much comfort thereby!
The important thing is to be part of the Liturgy and to concentrate all your heart and mind on Him - and not to judge others who perhaps lack your stamina. That widow and her mite come to mind. There are some for whom even a little standing takes more effort than it does for some of us to stand for three hours.
Practices clearly differ in different jurisdictions.
In Christ,
John
Thank you for your reply. I really didn't mean to pass comments or judgments on anyone. I was just expressing my opinion about myself. Second, I haven't been to the monastery (or the new church) that you are referring to in Stevenage. I hope I can go there some time. But, the description of the pew as you are telling us is quite different than what I understood. In this way, I would really like to try it myself, even though not forgetting that standing up for me would be more special. I also, just wanted to encourage myself (and whoever else is interested) in offering sacrifices to God however we do it. If you say that it is not that comfortable (as I didn't know about it at all to start with), and you deem it to be another way of giving sacrifice, then that is great. I really hope you didn't get me wrong, or thought that I was passing comments about other people separating myself from the others. No, on the contrary, I know that most of those who sit down have their own reasons for it, and I don't have the least doubt that if people think about it the right way, and tell themselves standing up is a sacrifice, I know the whole congregation would be standing up all the time, excepting those who have strong reasons not to do it. I just meant to get the message across, so that I, first, start by myself, and then second people reading this forum start in their own congregations, so that the stamina and the concept spreads out to every body else. How wonderful it would be.
God bless you and please mention me in your prayers
I do agree with you; it is better to stand when one can; it is more respectful to God, and it reminds one that one is in His presence in Church.
Some people can get really heated over this question, but I prefer your attitude, which is more caring and sensible. What matters is the spirit in which we all worship God - and if we do it in the spirit you describe, we will not be wrong.
In the Risen Christ,
John