I thought that writing under "Personal Issues" was for people who had personal issues who wished to have Christian advice?
My issue was is looking twice a sin if on the second look, you don't have lustful thoughts at all?
It wasnt to convince anyone anything. What's there to convince ??
Im fed up of being judged and people judging me rather than just responding to my question. And then if it doesnt get answered, im none the wiser.
I asked a question concerning sex and the catholic church, and someone responded with an excellent comment that really made me think, and supported the church's argument against fornication.
If you think my questions are silly, stupid, or just immature... ignore them, but i start by asking out of curiosity.
I think the problem with the statement : "The 2nd look is your fault" is that it assumes you going to have lustful desires?? It doesnt take into account that you may just not be 100% sure the 1st time you looked.
Anyway, i'm sick and tired of being judged and having no questions answered. Its annoying. If you think im a sinner, then fine. I don't care. I asked the question in the "PERSONAL" section where people have "PERSONAL" problems.
Comments
I think you may have misinterpretted what it means.
By 'the first time' it is referring to getting a glimpse of a girl or an uncovered part of her body that may cause you to lust [YUR NOT SUPPOSED TO LUK AT THAT !] the second look is when yu turn around and like take a mental picture for future reference. && thats COMPLETELY WRONG. because even though yu dont see it, it is causing you to sin in more ways than one.
its not wrong when you see it the first time because its not yur fault, but if you keep thinking about it then thats wrong. get it ?
I think u might be taking the stuff thats said too personally!
God loves us all, so smile dont get upset and ur opinion is as valid as anyones.
Ps thanks for the personal msg!
now my view..
looking--there is nufing rong.. i know a reallllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllly hot guy..i like looking at his face becuase its handsome..nothing wrong...3di..some people are butiful some arent...full stop..
ba aa...IF i happen to say omg he that butiful face has to be mine...i cat take it..thats when i have stepped over the line and god gets upset..becuase he is our fiance and u wouldnt do that or talk about anyone like that if u were engaged...and vasillios ..get over it..this is a NEW forum, a NEW start.... dont bring things from other forums...complain on ur old one..
well i read b4 Pope Shenouda's book (so many years with peoples problems - these are great books - i recomend!!) on a similar topic
so i will adjust what i have read to answer this topic - this is how i interpreted it........
his holiness said that its not a sin initself to look i guess
and to fight the urge is actually good and a sign of righteousness. so interpreting that, the second look i guess would b wrong??
and by the way hardyakka means like hard work or to work hard - its a brand of work clothing in australia - thought u might wanna know! lol
btw when i find the book ill write u the exact title and reference
Kristina123
Why are girls responding to this subject - MEN ONLY!! Its a man's problem!! And i prefer men's point of view only. NO WOMEN!!!
Ok, as a man:
When I see a beautiful woman on the street, I don't necessarily begin thinking lustful thoughts about her.
Even so, I still don't believe its right to look twice, or stare, etc.
Of course, sometimes you don't look away; that's human nature. But still not right.
Prophet Job said:
"I made a covenant with mine eyes, and I will not think upon a virgin" (31:1).
So unless a person has reached a saintly state of dispassion (as the Abbot you mentioned had), I don't think its right to look at womens' bodies - even if it doesn't produce lustful thoughts right away.
Btw, didn't you complain in a previous post about some Coptic guy on the train that kept staring at women - that he was a bad example ???
[quote author=why link=board=10;threadid=4596;start=0#msg62876 date=1162877009]
okaiie guys..of that ..no judging..ok..wateva..
now my view..
looking--there is nufing rong.. i know a reallllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllly hot guy..i like looking at his face becuase its handsome..nothing wrong...3di..some people are butiful some arent...full stop..
ba aa...IF i happen to say omg he that butiful face has to be mine...i cat take it..thats when i have stepped over the line and god gets upset..becuase he is our fiance and u wouldnt do that or talk about anyone like that if u were engaged...and vasillios ..get over it..this is a NEW forum, a NEW start.... dont bring things from other forums...complain on ur old one..
Hello Why. What you are discussing is also what i was thinking about: When i look twice at a woman, if I don't have lustful thoughts the second time, then it can't be wrong?! That's all i was discussing. Because our Church teaches us that the 2nd look is bad.
I know the difference between lust and admiration or attraction.
I was walking in the streets of paris, and there was this store that sells magazines. Whether he's open or closed, he usually keeps the latest issues of all the magazines in the window. I pass by, and i see all the naked women just there. Its literally pornography. Do i look twice?? I stopped, i stared IN DISBELIEF. Its in a VERY residential area... any kid can see them. Its NOT hidden. Its strange how attractive the female body is, yet attraction doesnt come into this when i see these images. Its more of disbelief. How is it we can allow such material to be exposed in public places.
Then I went to London once. I walked into some sports store to get some socks for the gym, and the manager was playing Rap music. I heard the lyrics, and it was pornography-audiolysed. It scared me. I told him.. look: You are a sports store right next to a gym, everyone comes in to get small things, and a kid could just walk in and hear that stuff. He argued with me, and said that it was "normal" and "acceptable" music.
I didnt particulary find the lyrics respectful to women at all. It was basically one man's sexual desire "and sarcasm" as to what he wanted to do with these women.
Its very shocking! I went to complain to the head office. And they will take some action.
So, i know what lust is, and i think such a statement like "the 2nd look is your fault" disturbing because it gives us unnecessary complexes.
I JUST DONT KNOW WHY WOMEN ON THIS TOPIC WROTE IN!!! Its not something that concerns you! Its a male issue. And if you find it childish, or immature, or whatever... READ ANOTHER TOPIC!! But i WAS NOT OFFENSIVE. I was discussing a dilema i had personally!!!
Now if anyone has any dilema or question, what can he/she do when people like here judge them EVERY TIME they ask ANYTHING!!!!!!!!!! ITS ANNOYING!!
ok number one..I AM A FEMALE>...and i wrote my last email as a female..LOL...
anywayss...let me clarify....
NAKED IMAGES..they may not provide to be LUSTFUL in the time..or context but will provide to be a means of LUSTFUL desire for the furute for the devil to play around with ur head....in a way......that is WHY or a part of WHY the church says DONT look twice...this imprints an image into ur head...
aiight and stop this whole men problem thing..becasue men and women fight the same problem....
now.. i agree with wat the church teaches. if a half nude girl walks passed you and you saw just out of randomness then its not your fault its actually the girls fault for drawing attention to herself for not wearing modest clothes.. but if you look the second time to 'check her out' then it is your fault.. this is what the church teaches us: If you cant avoid to see things turn your eyes straight away from the temptation. Don't let the chance come. the longer you focus the more your mind records it. it takes us 2 minutes to take something sinful in and 20 years to get it out. why do they teach us that? because its the way of following Christ and living the life of simplicity.. living the life of simplicity means crucifying the need for material.. and also being prepared to crucify your senses.. is not the eye the gateway to your temple?It says in the Bible if you control your eyes then you have control over your whole body. If your eye is filled with darkness then so is your body, heart, soul and mind. so thats why the church says that about the second look. also i totally agree with hardyakka in his post.. stop fooling yourself.. and also agree with Hizz_Child.. one last thing.. dont stop and stare at girls.. or check em out or wateva the heck you do.. some people get really annoyed from that.. you may think you are doing them a favor but just keep your eyes to yourself.. also please keep your silly comments on this thread to yourself and respect yourself and others a bit more..
sorry if i hav offended..
+FROG+
I never met such a bunch of rude, judgemental, offensive bunch of people such as in the Coptic Church.
dont u think just from that sentece you are the 1 thts being judgemental as well?? how bout we look at ourselves first b4 talking about others.. yeah?
so are you saying if anyone else was naked youd look at them? wow thats shallow dont you think?
well, who the heck do i think i am? i think i am FROG ;) how bout u chill down a bit and read things properly b4 jumping to conclusions :)
i dont know what i did for you to tell me things like this.. u wanted church point of view so i gave it to you.. any problems? and in your other thread on marrying in the coptic church.. you tell us girls to respect you boys so our coptic society doesnt decline.. i didnt do anything to you and your attacking me.. dont you think that childish and pettish actions such as those would decline coptic numbers? i think so.. and did i say you were a pervert or a stalker.. goodnes.. u and your conclusions.. stop throwing words in my mouth please... :)
I don't think it is bad or wrong to look twice!
Look as much as you want!
;)
I mean when you are talking to anyone you must have eye contact! So when you are talking to a female, you are gonna look to the ground???
Even if they were walking naked!
It is the Human nature! ( we are all Adult mature People here) ( i assume)
Eve and Adam, both of them were naked!
So don't tell me that Adam sined because he was looking at Eve whenshe was naked???
;)
bentBABAyasooa
13"You are the salt of the earth. But if the salt loses its saltiness, how can it be made salty again? It is no longer good for anything, except to be thrown out and trampled by men.
14"You are the light of the world. A city on a hill cannot be hidden. 15Neither do people light a lamp and put it under a bowl. Instead they put it on its stand, and it gives light to everyone in the house. 16In the same way, let your light shine before men, that they may see your good deeds and praise your Father in heaven.
27"You have heard that it was said, 'Do not commit adultery.'[e] 28But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart. 29If your right eye causes you to sin, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to be thrown into hell. 30And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to go into hell.
I mean when you are talking to anyone you must have eye contact! So when you are talking to a female, you are gonna look to the ground???
disagree
in some cultures it is a sign of disrespect if you attempt to maintain eye contact
and im sure it was not implied that one looks to the ground that is also disrespectful but if i am correct eye contact when talking to girl is not part of this discussion isnt it about observing the individual as a whole?
( we are all Adult mature People here) ( i assume)
1 corinthians 10:23 All things are lawful for me, but not all things are helpful; all things are lawful for me, but not all things edify.
so for instance you are 18+ so you may watch all the 'm' rated movies there are because your over age limit.. thats nonsense.. and where you come from.. if ppl walk in the streets naked thats their fault.. but just because you are adult and mature that doesnt mean that everything is good for you..
rabana yesemhkom!
he said he looks at gurls without lust! howa horr......!! ya sater!!
It is up to him and his conscience we are not here to judge him! non of us are! and it seems like everyone here forgot that god is the one who judges what is in a person's heart!
So why do we judge eachother here?
We are here to disscuss topics with respect!
But if he looks at female with lust in his heart! then it is a sin!
He said he just looks! he didn't say I look with lustfull thoughts!
So it is up to Vas, and his conscience!
So just let him be!
and fully rely of god is way to go for showing respect!! I give you thumbs UP!! ;)
this is what Proberbs says about lust!
Proverbs 27:20
20) Hell and destruction are never full; so the eyes of man are never satisfied. (KJV)
20Death and Destruction are never satisfied, and neither are the eyes of man. (NIV)
27:20 The underworld and Abaddon are never full, and the eyes of man have never enough. (BBE)
Thoughts for the Day:
This verse from Proverbs tells those who yield to lust will never be satisfied, just as hell is never satisfied as it is always calling for more inhabitants. The Bible talks about how the lust of the eyes is one of the things in this world that is against the will of God. Lust can never be satisfied as it always wants more
bentBABAyasooa
[quote author=bentBABAyasooa` link=board=10;threadid=4596;start=15#msg63023 date=1163085596]
( we are all Adult mature People here) ( i assume)
1 corinthians 10:23 All things are lawful for me, but not all things are helpful; all things are lawful for me, but not all things edify.
so for instance you are 18+ so you may watch all the 'm' rated movies there are because your over age limit.. thats nonsense.. and where you come from.. if ppl walk in the streets naked thats their fault.. but just because you are adult and mature that doesnt mean that everything is good for you..
woooooooooooooo............
I just got SERVED!!!!
;)
bentBABAyasooa
"and fully rely of god is way to go for showing respect!! I give you thumbs UP!!" is that meant to be sarcastic?
and as for your verses.. ive got no idea what your on about.. why are you people creating problems from nothing?
Look you Frog, its passed midnight now down'unda... go to sleep.. get some rest to go and judge someone else tomorrow.
Sounds like a good idea here.
i was going to post last night again but it was 3am so ill do it now...
[quote author=vassilios link=board=10;threadid=4596;start=30#msg63038 date=1163089611]
That's the best thing. People should just ignore someone they don't like, or a post they may find offensive.
its funny how you dont take your own advice.. i think for future references that would be the wiser thing to do.. ;)
[quote author=vassilios link=board=10;threadid=4596;start=30#msg63038 date=1163089611]
I came in this forum not pretending i was a saint... just admitting my problems, and asking for some help.
well i gave it to you and you started attacking me for no reason at all.. but you started jumping to conclusions so how is that my fault?
[quote author=vassilios link=board=10;threadid=4596;start=30#msg63038 date=1163089611]
The people here can be sooo self righteous,
and you are blaming us for judging ???
[quote author=vassilios link=board=10;threadid=4596;start=30#msg63038 date=1163089611]
Also, girls don't understand this issue about looking twice. Its not the same.
no, may not be the same but i was giving you a girls point of view and how we feel about it
but really vassilios.. ive got no idea why you created a problem from nothing.. how bout u chill a bit yeah? well.. at least you get to know how it feels to treat others like that.. you know what.. how bout i chuck a you and say 'hahahaha.. i was only joking..' but just one thing matey.. if you go back to the top and read.. it all started from you jumping to conclusions.. so y dont you stop disrespecting me and start respecting everyone around u.. thanks :)
+FROG+
When guys answer, u tell us not to judge ive posted my response b4 there is really nothing more to it
1 look ok.......2nd look bad
Simple!
That's a typical female reaction. Like... i went in to use the shower, i had the right to use the shower... i COULD have even walked in, because it was the shower room for men and women.. but instead i knocked politely and turned my head. Like, i'm accused for being a gentleman.
thats just like saying please theif can you knock on the door before you come in and steal my property
typical female reaction? what did you expect? oh come on in vassilios and check out our naked bodies, if you were a true gentleman you would've walked out without knocking, dont you have a shower at home?
and fully rely of god
sry.. my name is fully rely ON God.. would you like me to spell it for you?? F.U.L.L.Y. R.E.L.Y. O.N. G.O.D :).. sry just thought id correct you the same way you corrected kerestina on the other thread ;)
cheers
perhaps you should be advocating for individual shower rooms ie male and female so your exposed to naked bodies
i do not intend to inhibit your life, i was simply giving you my interpretation
we shall end it here, but i still think that since you seen the naked bodies 'roughly', you shoud've left without knocking and come back another time or one hour later as women (minority not majority) take this long to have shower
i guess i cant comment i havent experienced what you have bas ma himish
salam vassilios