It's not really about the apple or the tree, it is about disobeying God. When God created Adam, He breathed unto him, so that means we have God's spirit inside of us, when we decide to disobey God, we are therefore separating ourselves from Him, who is the source of life, when we separate ourselves from the source of life, we are in essence DEAD.
But why did God tell them not to eat from the apple in the first place?? And , on top of that, why did He make the apple soo appealing and interesting to eat??
Why did He decide to test us to see if we would disobey Him or not... ???
Hey Vassilios God gave us so many things to enjoy, He created everything in this world for us, but He also gave us free will, and by this will, we choose whether to obey God's commandments or not. After all the great things that He gave Adam and Eve, I think, just to test their love for Him by a simple commandment is not asking much. ....why did got test Abraham....and tell him to kill Isaac?, why does God test us, a lot of times it is these tests that give us strength to keep on trusting in God and love Him more and more. It seems like a simple commandment not to eat from the tree, but of course we all know if our parents tell us not to do something, we would probably do the exact opposite :-\
"No manner of speech is able to define the deep expanse of Your love for mankind. You, as a Lover of mankind, created me, a man. You had no need of my servitude. Rather, it was me who was in need of Your lordship. Because of the multitude of Your compassions, You formed me when I had no being51. You set up the sky for me as a ceiling. You made the earth firm for me so that I could walk on it. For my sake You bridled the sea52. For my sake You have revealed the nature of the animals. You subdued everything under my feet53. You did not permit me to lack anything from among the deeds of Your honour. You are He who formed me; And placed Your hand upon me. You wrote within me the image of Your authority; And placed within me the gift of speech. You opened for me the paradise, for my delight; And gave me the learning of Your knowledge. You revealed to me the tree of life; And made known to me the thorn of death. One plant there was, from which You forbade me to eat. This of which You said to me: "From this only do not eat!" I ate of my own free will. I laid aside Your law by my own opinion. I neglected Your commandments. I brought upon myself the sentence of death54.
[quote author=vassilios link=board=1;threadid=4562;start=0#msg62533 date=1162224233] Hi PrincessMary, Nice to hear from u.
But why did God tell them not to eat from the apple in the first place?? And , on top of that, why did He make the apple soo appealing and interesting to eat??
Why did He decide to test us to see if we would disobey Him or not... ???
he didnt make it interesting or appealing lol.. but people usually want what they cant have.. the tree probably looked like any other tree except that God told them not to eat from it. and yet it luk XACTLEE THE SAME !! wouldn't you be curious about whats so speacial about the tree ?? ever one of us would have done the same thing.. but knowing myself i know that i would have done it much more swiftly... think about it.
That is a very interesting question. It reminds me of a story that may help paint a picture.
+++ There was this guy who always used to blame Adam and Eve for eating from the tree (we don't know what kind). His friend who was very rich and a good christian would try to explain to him but to no avail. Finally the friend invited him for dinner at his house. when he walked in, he was showen to the dinning room and was seated by himself at the dinning room table. Servants kept bringing in all kinds of food to the table. At one point, they brought a covered dish. The guy kept wondering why was this dish covered? what was so important under it? why wasn't it exposed like the rest? shortly after, he decided to uncover it to see what is in it. He found a note saying "you had all the other dishes that were uncovered and had every type of food you can imagine, you had to try the one that was covered" (or something to that effect).
Point is, Curiosity can work against us and that's one of the things Satan used to make them fall. The host did not make the dish appealing, he prevented his guest from seeing what is under the cover. Manners would dictate that you should wait for your host to uncover the dish. There is an arabic saying that goes "we always want what we can't have or shouldn't have"
Yeah, OK, but why even present us a tree with fruit?? As the supreme and highest urban town planner at the time, which in fact God is, why didnt He place that tree with its fruit, somewhere out of the reach of Adam and Eve. And if it was bad for them, why even create it???!!
What for? That's just asking for trouble!
Of course Adam was gonna eat from the tree, who could blame him??? There was no TV, no DVD's nothing... the most interesting thing going on at that time was a tree with forbidden fruit!!!
[quote author=vassilios link=board=1;threadid=4562;start=0#msg62556 date=1162289838] Yeah, OK, but why even present us a tree with fruit?? As the supreme and highest urban town planner at the time, which in fact God is, why didnt He place that tree with its fruit, somewhere out of the reach of Adam and Eve. And if it was bad for them, why even create it???!!
What for? That's just asking for trouble!
Of course Adam was gonna eat from the tree, who could blame him??? There was no TV, no DVD's nothing... the most interesting thing going on at that time was a tree with forbidden fruit!!!
Please , someone help me!
You cannot have love without freedom. God wishes us to come to him out of our own will; He does not force us.
Likewise, you cannot have freedom if there is no choice.
[quote author=vassilios link=board=1;threadid=4562;start=0#msg62562 date=1162291216] Hi Orthodox,
OK.. but why put the tree with the forbidden fruit in the Garden of Eden?? Why not put it in the Garden of Alaska?? Or the Garden on the top of the mount Kilimanjaro??? Where - its there, if u want it, but you gotta be one desperate individual to find it and then climb up and get it!???
Why have it there - in the SAME garden He created Adam and Eve?? Why??
What for??
Like I said, without choice there is no freedom.
If the tree was at the top of Mt. Kilimanjaro, what choice would have existed for Adam and Eve?
[quote author=vassilios link=board=1;threadid=4562;start=0#msg62564 date=1162291803] Of course there would be choice.. but why would God create something that is bad for us IN OUR REACH?? Its our free will to go and displace ourselves and move to Mt Kilimanjaro and to make the "free will " decision to climb up and find the tree, but to go and create it RIGHT IN FRONT of us and tell us not to eat from it , then it means one thing:
He wanted us to live in complexity and frustration?? If He had created the tree FAR from us, anyone with any intelligence, would have said :"Yep, its obvious that this is bad for us, and He even created it for us far away out of our reach, but should be decide to go and eat from it, we are free to do so.. " But instead, creating it within the garden of Eden, there's Adam waking up EVERY morning looking at the same animals, the same trees, the same flowers... getting bored and border... of course he's gonna want to try out new things...
Getting bored? In Paradise?
Adam was in communion with God when he lived in Paradise. He was not in the later state of falleness that produces boredom.
It's not right to apply our own fallen nature to Adam in his pre-fall state and make assumptions based on such faulty reasoning.
If you read the Genesis account, you will see that Adam and Eve had no desire to eat from the tree until the serpent begun enticing them.
And they didn't listen to him because they thought "hey, I'm sick of all these other trees, and this one looks really tasty", but because the serpent told them they would be like God.
They fell out of pride, not out of boredom.
Also, it should be noted that many of the Church Fathers teach that the commandment to not eat of the tree was only a temporal one. Adam was only an "infant", so to speak, at that time. He was not ready to eat from the tree at that time.
You cannot have love without freedom. God wishes us to come to him out of our own will; He does not force us.
Furthermore, Adam and Eve had yet to attain the likeness of God--incorruption (which entails immortality, holiness etc.); they were only created with the potential to do so. The only way they could progress to such a stage was to exercise their free will in accordance with the divine laws so as to progressively align their wills to be naturally in sync with that of God Himself.
God was in essence giving them an opportunity to find salvation, which they in turn abused so as to consequently lose salvation. Had God left them without opportunity they would never have had the chance to find salvation in the first place.
"Adam and eve had YET to attain the likliness of God incorruption"
What does this mean? I thought that they were created in God's image and likeness? Non?
Man reflects the image of God insofar as he possesses rationale, free will, etc. Man reflects the likeness of God insofar as he is immortal, incorrupt, blameless etc.
However, man was not created like God, for man was not created naturally bearing those afore-mentioned qualities, rather man was created in the likeness of God insofar as He experienced those qualities according to his communion and union with God in paradise. Nevertheless, by virtue of man's being created in the image of God, he was created with the potential to achieve the very likeness of God, for it is those faculties that we possess by virtue of being in the image of God (i.e. will, intellect, etc.) which enable us to make moral judgments in harmony with God's laws, and it is the consistent and habitative practice of those laws that allows us to be transformed to His likeness.
Why would God want to give them an opportunity to find salvation if from the very start , before eating the apple, they were already saved?!
The point is that they were not already saved. Though they were experiencing a state of incorruption by virtue of their union and communion with God, they were not in fact incorrupt. That is why in the Divine Liturgy of St. Basil, the priest says that man was created "in incorruption" as opposed to saying that man was created "incorrupt".
The difference can be demonstarted via the following analogy: If it starts raining and I am inside my house, I experience a state of dryness by virtue of my being inside of the house and not because I am naturally susceptible against rain. That is why if I were to walk outside, I would inevitably get wet. The same goes for Adam and Eve's state of incorruption--God's Grace was serving as a divine shield over them proecting them from corruption and mortality, yet they were not naturally susceptible against such things...God's Grace was working towards transforming them to such a state, but they rejected His Grace when they disobeyed His command.
Only through consistent victory over temptation and hence consistent allegiance to God, could they achieve incorruption.
St Athanasius says of man, that “he bears also the Likeness of Him Who is, and if he preserves that Likeness through constant contemplation, then his nature is deprived of its power and he remains incorrupt. So is it affirmed in Wisdom: "The keeping of His laws is the assurance of incorruption". And being incorrupt, he would be henceforth as God, as Holy Scripture says, "I have said, Ye are gods and sons of the Highest all of you: but ye die as men and fall as one of the princes." (On the Incarnation, Chapter 1)
Similarly, St. Severus says that man “was given the promise of immortality and impassibility as a divine gift to be imparted by God’s grace. By the fall he came to lose this divine grace, although he was not deprived of his nature...If, however, he [man] had continued to maintain his vision of God, he would have transcended the natural corruptibility and remained incorruptible” (La Poleniique I, p. 30).”
I have a question as well. In the later end of the chapter where God exiles Adam and Eve, he sets a sword of fire which guards the 'tree of life'. Is this a second tree with a purpose as well?
hey coptic dragon, you have posed an interesting question, in Genesis 2:9 it says 'the tree of life was also in the midst of the garden and the tree of the knowledge of good and evil' , although the tree of life, correct me if im wrong was only mentioned after Adam and Eve sinned. I think it would have a purpose, what that purpose is I don’t know??
Yes i think it is a 2nd tree with a purpose--- the tree of life gives eternal life to him who eats of it, and is present also in the New Jerusalem in Revelation.
God said expelled them for disobeying him, and also in case they ate and got eternal life..
Comments
Nice to hear from u.
But why did God tell them not to eat from the apple in the first place?? And , on top of that, why did He make the apple soo appealing and interesting to eat??
Why did He decide to test us to see if we would disobey Him or not... ???
Just wanted to add that fact...
Please forgive me and pray for me,
Godhelpme3691
God gave us so many things to enjoy, He created everything in this world for us, but He also gave us free will, and by this will, we choose whether to obey God's commandments or not. After all the great things that He gave Adam and Eve, I think, just to test their love for Him by a simple commandment is not asking much. ....why did got test Abraham....and tell him to kill Isaac?, why does God test us, a lot of times it is these tests that give us strength to keep on trusting in God and love Him more and more. It seems like a simple commandment not to eat from the tree, but of course we all know if our parents tell us not to do something, we would probably do the exact opposite :-\
"No manner
of speech is able to define the deep
expanse of Your love for mankind.
You, as a Lover of mankind, created
me, a man. You had no need of my
servitude. Rather, it was me who was in
need of Your lordship.
Because of the multitude of Your
compassions, You formed me when I had
no being51.
You set up the sky for me as a ceiling.
You made the earth firm for me so that
I could walk on it.
For my sake You bridled the sea52.
For my sake You have revealed the
nature of the animals.
You subdued everything under my
feet53.
You did not permit me to lack anything
from among the deeds of Your honour.
You are He who formed me;
And placed Your hand upon me.
You wrote within me the image of Your
authority;
And placed within me the gift of
speech.
You opened for me the paradise, for my
delight;
And gave me the learning of Your
knowledge.
You revealed to me the tree of life;
And made known to me the thorn of
death.
One plant there was, from which You
forbade me to eat.
This of which You said to me: "From
this only do not eat!"
I ate of my own free will.
I laid aside Your law by my own
opinion.
I neglected Your commandments.
I brought upon myself the sentence of
death54.
Hi PrincessMary,
Nice to hear from u.
But why did God tell them not to eat from the apple in the first place?? And , on top of that, why did He make the apple soo appealing and interesting to eat??
Why did He decide to test us to see if we would disobey Him or not... ???
he didnt make it interesting or appealing lol.. but people usually want what they cant have.. the tree probably looked like any other tree except that God told them not to eat from it. and yet it luk XACTLEE THE SAME !! wouldn't you be curious about whats so speacial about the tree ?? ever one of us would have done the same thing.. but knowing myself i know that i would have done it much more swiftly... think about it.
cyah :D:D:D
+++
There was this guy who always used to blame Adam and Eve for eating from the tree (we don't know what kind). His friend who was very rich and a good christian would try to explain to him but to no avail. Finally the friend invited him for dinner at his house. when he walked in, he was showen to the dinning room and was seated by himself at the dinning room table. Servants kept bringing in all kinds of food to the table. At one point, they brought a covered dish. The guy kept wondering why was this dish covered? what was so important under it? why wasn't it exposed like the rest? shortly after, he decided to uncover it to see what is in it. He found a note saying "you had all the other dishes that were uncovered and had every type of food you can imagine, you had to try the one that was covered" (or something to that effect).
Point is, Curiosity can work against us and that's one of the things Satan used to make them fall. The host did not make the dish appealing, he prevented his guest from seeing what is under the cover. Manners would dictate that you should wait for your host to uncover the dish. There is an arabic saying that goes "we always want what we can't have or shouldn't have"
+++
just my 2 cents...
As the supreme and highest urban town planner at the time, which in fact God is, why didnt He place that tree with its fruit, somewhere out of the reach of Adam and Eve. And if it was bad for them, why even create it???!!
What for? That's just asking for trouble!
Of course Adam was gonna eat from the tree, who could blame him??? There was no TV, no DVD's nothing... the most interesting thing going on at that time was a tree with forbidden fruit!!!
Please , someone help me!
Yeah, OK, but why even present us a tree with fruit??
As the supreme and highest urban town planner at the time, which in fact God is, why didnt He place that tree with its fruit, somewhere out of the reach of Adam and Eve. And if it was bad for them, why even create it???!!
What for? That's just asking for trouble!
Of course Adam was gonna eat from the tree, who could blame him??? There was no TV, no DVD's nothing... the most interesting thing going on at that time was a tree with forbidden fruit!!!
Please , someone help me!
You cannot have love without freedom. God wishes us to come to him out of our own will; He does not force us.
Likewise, you cannot have freedom if there is no choice.
Hi Orthodox,
OK.. but why put the tree with the forbidden fruit in the Garden of Eden?? Why not put it in the Garden of Alaska?? Or the Garden on the top of the mount Kilimanjaro??? Where - its there, if u want it, but you gotta be one desperate individual to find it and then climb up and get it!???
Why have it there - in the SAME garden He created Adam and Eve?? Why??
What for??
Like I said, without choice there is no freedom.
If the tree was at the top of Mt. Kilimanjaro, what choice would have existed for Adam and Eve?
Of course there would be choice.. but why would God create something that is bad for us IN OUR REACH?? Its our free will to go and displace ourselves and move to Mt Kilimanjaro and to make the "free will " decision to climb up and find the tree, but to go and create it RIGHT IN FRONT of us and tell us not to eat from it , then it means one thing:
He wanted us to live in complexity and frustration?? If He had created the tree FAR from us, anyone with any intelligence, would have said :"Yep, its obvious that this is bad for us, and He even created it for us far away out of our reach, but should be decide to go and eat from it, we are free to do so.. " But instead, creating it within the garden of Eden, there's Adam waking up EVERY morning looking at the same animals, the same trees, the same flowers... getting bored and border... of course he's gonna want to try out new things...
Getting bored? In Paradise?
Adam was in communion with God when he lived in Paradise. He was not in the later state of falleness that produces boredom.
It's not right to apply our own fallen nature to Adam in his pre-fall state and make assumptions based on such faulty reasoning.
If you read the Genesis account, you will see that Adam and Eve had no desire to eat from the tree until the serpent begun enticing them.
And they didn't listen to him because they thought "hey, I'm sick of all these other trees, and this one looks really tasty", but because the serpent told them they would be like God.
They fell out of pride, not out of boredom.
Also, it should be noted that many of the Church Fathers teach that the commandment to not eat of the tree was only a temporal one. Adam was only an "infant", so to speak, at that time. He was not ready to eat from the tree at that time.
God was in essence giving them an opportunity to find salvation, which they in turn abused so as to consequently lose salvation. Had God left them without opportunity they would never have had the chance to find salvation in the first place.
However, man was not created like God, for man was not created naturally bearing those afore-mentioned qualities, rather man was created in the likeness of God insofar as He experienced those qualities according to his communion and union with God in paradise. Nevertheless, by virtue of man's being created in the image of God, he was created with the potential to achieve the very likeness of God, for it is those faculties that we possess by virtue of being in the image of God (i.e. will, intellect, etc.) which enable us to make moral judgments in harmony with God's laws, and it is the consistent and habitative practice of those laws that allows us to be transformed to His likeness. The point is that they were not already saved. Though they were experiencing a state of incorruption by virtue of their union and communion with God, they were not in fact incorrupt. That is why in the Divine Liturgy of St. Basil, the priest says that man was created "in incorruption" as opposed to saying that man was created "incorrupt".
The difference can be demonstarted via the following analogy: If it starts raining and I am inside my house, I experience a state of dryness by virtue of my being inside of the house and not because I am naturally susceptible against rain. That is why if I were to walk outside, I would inevitably get wet. The same goes for Adam and Eve's state of incorruption--God's Grace was serving as a divine shield over them proecting them from corruption and mortality, yet they were not naturally susceptible against such things...God's Grace was working towards transforming them to such a state, but they rejected His Grace when they disobeyed His command.
Only through consistent victory over temptation and hence consistent allegiance to God, could they achieve incorruption.
St Athanasius says of man, that “he bears also the Likeness of Him Who is, and if he preserves that Likeness through constant contemplation, then his nature is deprived of its power and he remains incorrupt. So is it affirmed in Wisdom: "The keeping of His laws is the assurance of incorruption". And being incorrupt, he would be henceforth as God, as Holy Scripture says, "I have said, Ye are gods and sons of the Highest all of you: but ye die as men and fall as one of the princes." (On the Incarnation, Chapter 1)
Similarly, St. Severus says that man “was given the promise of immortality and impassibility as a divine gift to be imparted by God’s grace. By the fall he came to lose this divine grace, although he was not deprived of his nature...If, however, he [man] had continued to maintain his vision of God, he would have transcended the natural corruptibility and remained incorruptible” (La Poleniique I, p. 30).”
Do you think that God's only purpose for creating the tree of knowledge of good and evil was to test Adam and Eve?
I'm confused at what purpose the tree of knowledge of good and evil and the tree of life served.
Thanks
you have posed an interesting question, in Genesis 2:9 it says 'the tree of life was also in the midst of the garden and the tree of the knowledge of good and evil' , although the tree of life, correct me if im wrong was only mentioned after Adam and Eve sinned. I think it would have a purpose, what that purpose is I don’t know??
God said expelled them for disobeying him, and also in case they ate and got eternal life..
correct me if im wrong...