Hey Vas thanks for answering my post. I can see your point of view and that same verse came to mind. I realize that if someone doesn't feel that something is a sin, then we shouldn't make it a sin to them. I also hope you dont feel that the post was referring to the dancing at weddings situation. There was dancing at my wedding to be quite honest. My point was that I feel that what goes right along with that verse you quoted was also the one that I quoted. Yes, we may feel that it is not a sin, fine. But lets first and foremost consider the feelings and weaknesses of others. With respect to following the traditions of the country, I am quite sure that you are aware there are a ton of traditions every country and creed holds dear that we as Copts and Christs followers cannot adhere to. This is one that is open to interpretation i guess others are more clear cut. God Bless you all. by the way Vas, Brooklyn, not Islamic Egypt ;)
But tell me: your argument was taken from the book of Romans that states: "Do not do anything that tempts your brothers or sisters that makes them stumble".
Well, if our actions make u stumble, why then don't u pluck your eye out? Surely that's also a verse in the Bible? That way, we can all dance together? U can definately watch?? OK.. perhaps not watch, but we'd let u know, that we're having a good time??
But its a verse in the Bible for people who have a "stumbling" problem. Christ is suggesting for you to pluck "YOUR" eye out. He didnt say "Find the person who made u have a lustful thought and pluck their eyes out". YOUR eyes....
Please answer this.. im so curious
ps.. u were not born in Brooklyn, but u went there at what age?? were u young? or did u immigrate when u were around 20 ??
I mean, in Paris and Montreal - there are jazz and dance festivals every summer - its not sleazy at all (at least not in Paris).
If one lives as u have described ((which is very noble indeed)) , then why even get out of bed? There is a chance that whilst walking in the street, I COULD come across a woman showing her legs and fall into immense desire and temptation also.
Its dancing... i mean..its NOT dirty dancing.. Ya3ni.. some things people do, they have the nerve to even call it dancing, when its literally foreplay (excuse the expression).
All the servants in my Church in London dance at all the weddings.. in fact, they could probably treach not only belly dancing, but even classical.
I attended a wedding once (I won't say where), in a Copptic church, where during the wedding reception, Abouna put a cloth over the bride and groom so they could kiss each other...
I mean, people are different dude. Many egyptians who come to the west from Egypt are very conservative, and don't understand western traditions. I think this could be one of them.
There you go Vas.
Sometimes people think it's ok to do things just because their conscience agrees with them. When we are exposed to something for a long period of time, we dissolute to our environment. It becomes normal to us. This is one of those things. We really do have to agree on a right or wrong because then everything becomes grey, and we are blind.
Personally, I don't think it's right. Since there is no proof otherwise, it's the safest thing to while we are here on Earth. If you think about it, it's not that big a deal compared to eternal life & the love of Jesus. I don't even think it's worthy of all this contraversy. +God Bless.
The devil can also offer lies under the name of "wisdom"! He offers them as a kind of good conduct, or as saving situations. A physician may tell the patient many lies, justifying this before his conscience as "keeping up the patient's morale" and protecting him from collapse so as to be cured. Some people call certain lies "white lies" and on the first of April they call these lies jests, jokes or some other similar name. In this way, how easy it is for the devil to call dancing an art! And to call rude and shameless pictures an art as well; and the same with rude statues. Acting in the theatre and cinema is included under this name 'art', however sinful it may be
Hey Vas, in reply to your last post... I sense that I seem to have offended you in some way, and that is not at all my intention, I apologize if what I wrote was offensive to you in any way shape or form. Therefore, I am going to hu,bly bow out of this one, as I only intended to add to the opinions, but before I do I just wanted to clear up what I meant. You are absolutely right, as Christ said it would be better for us to pluck our own eyes out and enter the Kingdom maimed then to enter eternal damnation with a complete body. There is evil and temptation everywhere and if I cannot resist it, then it is my problem, and one must deal with their own issues (plucking eyes out for example). The idea that I intended to come across with is that in our quest to become better examples of Christ, one of the things that we should take into consideration (as it is written) is the actions we take that cause our brethren to stumble. I am not suggesting that any one else change themselves..i.e. if there happened upon me an individual that tempted my eyes, I would not go to her and suggest that she would change, I would flee from before her. There is also the issue of free will, Christ is not forcing anybody's hand and it is not my intention to do so either. I am simply responding to the subject of this topic in the manner that I try to live my life. I was born in Brooklyn Vas, my first visit to Egypt was 2 years ago and I have been back once since. The traditions that I speak of therefore are really not traditions at all, they are derived form the poor understanding that I have of God's word. It is possible to live in all parts of the world and not conform to the world and its traditions. But that is just my personal choice.Again I apolozize to you and anyone else that may have taken the meaning of this the wrong way. God Bless to all
Mashey guys, We all know that in egypt, the parents go to a place and cut off a piece of the child's private part (wheter gurl or boy)! It is written in the old testment (just like dancing), However, the parents do NOT think it is wrong so they do it because it is in the old testment, just like dancing! Meanwhile, there are other people who say "well, in the old testment Jacob fooled his dad, Joseph got sold to slavery by his brothers, the Isralities made a statue of a calf when moses was up in the mountain getting god's commendments, and etc........." So to some people it is right (and think it is and their conscience/heart is ok with it), also there are to some people it is wrong (and think it is wrong, and their conscience/heart is NOT ok with it).
Also, I have another point to make. Art, is something astonishing! Famous artists used/are to paint picture/sculpture statues of nudity! Whether it is wrong or right it is ART! just like dancing (it is art) Ballarina, salsa, hip hop, belly dancing, etc........... (art)!
[quote author=bentBABAyasooa` link=board=11;threadid=4624;start=30#msg63502 date=1163860792] Mashey guys, We all know that in egypt, the parents go to a place and cut off a piece of the child's private part (wheter gurl or boy)!
In the OT it doesn't say anything about circumcision for girls, and not many egyptians circumcise girls. Circumcission was a sign of the covenant that God had with Abraam, and when Jesus came, He told us it was not compulsory.
It's more healthy for a boy to lose his foreskin, there is less chance of complications arising that way.
So to some people it is right (and think it is and their conscience/heart is ok with it), also there are to some people it is wrong (and think it is wrong, and their conscience/heart is NOT ok with it).
That's not OK, look at this verse.
Revelation 3:16 So then, because you are lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will vomit you out of My mouth.
This verse tells us we have to differentiate between right and wrong, theres no in between. We have to agree on this.
This is what my confession father told me and I agree with him 100%. Dancing is not wrong UNLESS: - You are dancing to inapropriate music - You are dancing around people that may have impure thoughts, [girls, that pretty much ALL guys, young or old.] - You are dancing innapropriately.
In my view belly dancing is innapropriate. Simply because all you do is move your behind around in a seductive way.
The Bible tells us to keep ourselves unspotted from the world. If you cannot see the worldliness and lust associated with the modern dance today then you are blind.
People get out on the stage and throw their bodies around in a very seductive way, that is what is wrong with dancing, and it is just as wrong to watch it.
Dancing is a worldly activity that has no place in a Christians life. Your body is a holy sacrifice not a tool to attract someone and lead them astray by dance moves. Remember the innocent John the Baptist lost his head because of a seductive dance.
Dancing is of the world not of God and that is the difference between today’s dancing and dancing in the bible. In the Old Testament they danced during victorious occasions such as crossing of the Red Sea “When Pharaoh’s horses, chariots and horsemen went into the sea, the Lord brought the waters of the sea back over them, but the Israelites walked through the sea on dry ground. Then Miriam the prophetess, Aaron’s sister, took a tambourine in her hand, and all the women followed her, with tambourines and dancing. Miriam sang to them” (Exodus 15:19-21).
In contrast, is the celebration of important occasions such as the return of the prodigal son in the New Testament “Father, I have sinned against heaven and against you. I am no longer worthy to be called your son. But the father said to his servants, Quick! Bring the best robe and put it on him. Put a ring on his finger and sandals on his feet. Bring the fattened calf and kill it. Let’s have a feast and celebrate. For this son of mine was dead and is alive again; he was lost and is found. So they began to celebrate” (Luke 15:21-29). Just as weddings are a important and special occasions but the concern is that dancing is a stumbling block to many people and generates lustful moves, thoughts, or intentions.
Anyone heard of that song by Akon called belly dancer, that is a perfect example of someone falling into lust because of dancing. If you haven’t heard it goggle it and read the lyrics.
If you know dancing will create temptation and lust why do it?
I love your examples kerestina, however your examples are on my side as well....
Let me explain to you why, The Isralities danced out of JOY and sang out of JOY and also celebrated out of JOY, because the sea closed on Pharoh and all of his soliders.
ALso, The prodigal son , His father threw a big celebration because his son was dead and now alive, lost and now found....!!
I completly agree that dancing is wrong when it causes lust, also I agree that THE belly dancers' suit is unappropiate, However DANCING OUT OF JOY IS NOT WRONG!!!!! because you have no itential bad lust thoughts because your mind and heart are too busy being JOYFULL and all your mind and heart can do after thanking God is rejoy!
I will give you an example, My oldest brother got married recently and (please notice i said OLDEST) , we (my family) threw him the biggest reception ever! we celebrated, we sang, and ( watch for it) we DANCED!
I mean for crying out sakes, Girls had their pretty dress on, and you can't even see their bodies, guys were in suits!
HIzz child, I also agree with what you FOC told you, However; he did NOT say anything about "DANCING FOR JOY IS WRONG"!!
Ohh.......Hizz child, there are actually still some people in egypt that circumcise boys! and Girls! and here in U.S. ( that go to egypt specially to get their kids you know!
I THINK IT IS COMPLETLY WRONG!! but that is not the point!
[quote author=bentBABAyasooa` link=board=11;threadid=4624;start=30#msg63518 date=1163944678] I completly agree that dancing is wrong when it causes lust, also I agree that THE belly dancers' suit is unappropiate, However DANCING OUT OF JOY IS NOT WRONG!!!!! because you have no itential bad lust thoughts because your mind and heart are too busy being JOYFULL and all your mind and heart can do after thanking God is rejoy!
good point, of course at the time of dancing you dont think lustful thoughts, but are you seriously thinking of God when your belly dancing? its the aftermath, you intially have pure thoughts but my question is do they remain pure??
“There is a time for everything, and a season for every activity under heaven: ... a time to mourn and a time to dance” (Ecclesiastes 3:1,4), this also supports your point tooo bentBABAyasooa`but honestly i think it depends on whom your with, where you are, what your dancing to and the type of dancing.
[quote author=Forgiven1 link=board=11;threadid=4624;start=30#msg63501 date=1163860598] Hey Vas, in reply to your last post... I sense that I seem to have offended you in some way, and that is not at all my intention, I apologize if what I wrote was offensive to you in any way shape or form. Therefore, I am going to hu,bly bow out of this one, as I only intended to add to the opinions, but before I do I just wanted to clear up what I meant. You are absolutely right, as Christ said it would be better for us to pluck our own eyes out and enter the Kingdom maimed then to enter eternal damnation with a complete body. There is evil and temptation everywhere and if I cannot resist it, then it is my problem, and one must deal with their own issues (plucking eyes out for example). The idea that I intended to come across with is that in our quest to become better examples of Christ, one of the things that we should take into consideration (as it is written) is the actions we take that cause our brethren to stumble. I am not suggesting that any one else change themselves..i.e. if there happened upon me an individual that tempted my eyes, I would not go to her and suggest that she would change, I would flee from before her. There is also the issue of free will, Christ is not forcing anybody's hand and it is not my intention to do so either. I am simply responding to the subject of this topic in the manner that I try to live my life. I was born in Brooklyn Vas, my first visit to Egypt was 2 years ago and I have been back once since. The traditions that I speak of therefore are really not traditions at all, they are derived form the poor understanding that I have of God's word. It is possible to live in all parts of the world and not conform to the world and its traditions. But that is just my personal choice.Again I apolozize to you and anyone else that may have taken the meaning of this the wrong way. God Bless to all
No Forgiven, not at all, u havent offended me ONE bit...because we disagree, its fine.. why would u offend me?? Its very noble to see people like yourself and HizzChild and others even combat worldly activities to lead a holy life. Well done.
I just don't think its "a sin".
Listen, let me give u an example:
Your argument is this: Its wrong to dance because we lead each other into temptation? Right? OK.. so is it wrong to swim in a swimming pool ?? Girls go there too, and will dress in a bikini or swimsuit. We have to use the pool together. Shall we just make them veiled?? Forgiven, this sounds like a very islamic attitude??
I feel there should be spiritual combat in that MY EYES have to learn NOT to look lustfully. It has to!! And it can be done!
I personally don't like belly dancing because its just a girl dancing and guys looking at her. But, believe me, classical dancing isnt that. In fact, it teaches how to respect women and NOT have any lustful thoughts. What if a priest thought this way, he wouldnt allow a woman to kiss his hand?? He wouldnt give Holy Communion to women??
The truth is, they don't have lustful thoughts. Without God, u can do nothing, yet with Him, u can convert a lustful eye into a Holy one!! Im sure!! And for me, this is important because its wrong to excommunicate yourself from the world (unless you are a hermit or a greek orthodox monk living on the Holy Mountain!!).
So, at the end of the day, this is how i perceive things:
I totally agree that we should not confuse between right and wrong, but i'm certain enough that there are Copts influenced by islam, and who are none the wiser between right and wrong: ie. what is christian and what is un-christian. My suggestion is this:
If u are interested to know what is Christian (Orthodox); do ONE thing: --> Go to every single Orthodox Church and get to know the people there. The Greek Orthodox, the Russian, Romanian, Indian, Ethiopian, etc... and ask them. Ask their priests. Because they don't have our culture , yet are 99.999% close to our faith. the 0.1% apparently is semantics. Now, I hope Iqbal can agree with that to make u all feel at ease with this idea; im saying its a good idea because a Greek priest told me the difference was semantics, and i believe him actually.
I mean, in Paris and Montreal - there are jazz and dance festivals every summer - its not sleazy at all (at least not in Paris).
If one lives as u have described ((which is very noble indeed)) , then why even get out of bed? There is a chance that whilst walking in the street, I COULD come across a woman showing her legs and fall into immense desire and temptation also.
Its dancing... i mean..its NOT dirty dancing.. Ya3ni.. some things people do, they have the nerve to even call it dancing, when its literally foreplay (excuse the expression).
All the servants in my Church in London dance at all the weddings.. in fact, they could probably treach not only belly dancing, but even classical.
I attended a wedding once (I won't say where), in a Copptic church, where during the wedding reception, Abouna put a cloth over the bride and groom so they could kiss each other...
I mean, people are different dude. Many egyptians who come to the west from Egypt are very conservative, and don't understand western traditions. I think this could be one of them.
There you go Vas.
Sometimes people think it's ok to do things just because their conscience agrees with them. When we are exposed to something for a long period of time, we dissolute to our environment. It becomes normal to us. This is one of those things. We really do have to agree on a right or wrong because then everything becomes grey, and we are blind.
Personally, I don't think it's right. Since there is no proof otherwise, it's the safest thing to while we are here on Earth. If you think about it, it's not that big a deal compared to eternal life & the love of Jesus. I don't even think it's worthy of all this contraversy. +God Bless.
Hi Hizz, For the life of me, i still can't see how u can say : "Vassilios, you seem to think that just because something is widely accepted by the world, including Christians AND even Priests, it is acceptable in the eyes of God. " from what i've written above in the quote that you've sent me?
I think, perhaps could be mistaken, but u may have a pre-conception of me that isnt true. So, no matter what i say, that pre-conception is always guiding your opinion and filtering what I say as per your own mental image of me.
i can totally see your point of view Vas, there are so many temptations in the world, and it is our duty to combet them from our own side. I posted an opinion on another topic some time ago.... the original poster put in something to the effect of now that I am involved in the church, there are so many things that i thought were right and now there are so many people that tell me that it is wrong. My advice to him was to worry about the big things basically and God would slowly convict him of what is right and wrong. My opinion is not based upon the Islamic faith, I was born an grew up around some bad influences in N.Y. to say the least, and although my father was dilligent in taking me to church, it never stuck until God took a hold of me. My tag is Forgiven1 for a reason, I have done my fair share of dirt, so I hope i dont come across as one who grew up under the influence of the backward green wave of Islam. So now, as I say, I convict myself and my lusts for the things of this world on a daily basis, i.e. wealth, power, fleshly desires, etc. Although my dancing is not something that I think is tempting ANYBODY and I personally have no problem with it myself, I was just passing on that aside from ourselves, we should consider the temptations that others fall intoby our actions. To be quite honest, there ae several instances when I love to see dancing... for example "classical" dancing as u put it, opera, Dabke (i love properly performed Dabke), dancing for joy at weddings, etc. etc. But I also realize that these things are stumbling blocks to some, just as the example that I gave earlier with the alcoholic friend. So while I dont think that I wil EVER make someone stumble by dancing, I try to do what I can to not make others stumble in other ways, i.e. drinking, foul language (although this is one of my personal crosses, please pray for me), setting a bad example to a child, etc. etc. I dont know Vas, this is a very hard topic, and as I mentioned earlier, my understanding of scripture is weak, but I know that it's wrong for a lot of reasons, as well as the fact that it can be innocent on the part of some, and as it is written, we should not make certain things wrong for those who dont believe it is or right for those who believe it isn't because in that also, we cause them to stumble. I'll tell u what, I wish that I was more child like in mind as God wants us to be like my wife. For example, when I ask her sometimes if she went to abouna to confess, she says to me "for what? I haven't done anything wrong to confess at this time, when there is somehing, then I will go." I guess that way is so much better, she focuses on the simple commands of The Lord, trusts in Him with all of her heart, and doesn't concern herself with the rightness or wrongness of trivial things. Me on the other hand, there is ALWAYS something to confess, know what I mean? God bless u richly Vas and all....
u know what? The Song of Songs is a book in the Bible - right? well, apparently there are priests that have asked certain people "not" to read it because for them it is too "erotic" that they cannot deal with that language.
Its a beautiful book and shows the love between the Church and Christ. So, can we start to say that :"Look, so we don't tempt others, or make them stumble, let's erase the song of songs from the Bible!"
People have problems, and its on an individual basis that these problems are solved. Once they are solved, u can start to enjoy life to the full. Im sure.
I honestly didnt believe it when my sunday school teacher told us, and i remember being sarcastic about it, and he was upset with me for that because i think he knew how serious it was. I was sooo young at the time!
Anyway, one general rule in the Bible is the focus on one's own actions, not on others. God is asking me to focus on the speck in my eye , my sins, my problems , my eye that causes me to sin has to be plucked out, not the object i was staring at. I think its a case where we have to be responsible for ourselves and independent of what goes on in our hearts regardless of the environment we are in.
your right about that one, but then that brings us to another point that I have heard brought up before. Christ made it obvious several times that it is not our place to judge/condemn/take revenge, etc. He came to the world to save sinners, and it is the Lord's place to take revenge and judge. Well, my question is whe IS it right to call something right or wrong? I see that as a difficult question also. For example we are not to judge, but what is the exact meaning of this? If we see someone stealing, do we tell them that it is wrong? Or if I KNOW that what a person is doing is wrong, such as peddling drugs or porn or something of that nature, can we Judge those people? what exacly is judging, and when do we do it or not? God Bless to all....
10 Commandments in the Old Testament, + 1 Commandment = love thy neighbour as thy self. Plus in the new testament, there's the added clause of what u do in your heart is the same as in your deeds/or actions.
So, obey the commandments. If u sing/dance, joke whatever, and u have no intent on sinning, its OK. just keep the Lord's commandments. There's only 10 of them!! It can't be that hard!!!
I agree with Vas in his previous post and also with kerestina's and Forgiven1
I completly see where you guys are coming from, and Your opinion in on the top of my head because i respect it much!
It depends on what is in the heart! If Paige is dancing so she can show off to others or/and to get attention or/and she wants to tempt someone or/and she is doing it out of lust desiers or/and whatever the reason it maybe and it is a bad one! THEN IT IS A SIN!
However, if "MIRA" was dancing out of Joy because of her brother's wedding, her graduation, her wedding, her reception, hopefull she is gonna dance after thanking god when she pass this college semester!, when her fience says "I love you" or whatever the happy reason is that causes her to rejoy and jump up and down! Ladies and Gentelmen...... NO WHERE is this happy reasons involve "LUST", because it is Joy!
When a person turns "16" they rejoy, when they get their driver license they rejoy, when they pass HIGH SCHOOL and graduate they rejoy, When one of their siblings get married/engaged they rejoy, when they find THE ONE guess what? they rejoy!
Rejoice is a marvilious feeling! Full of happiness and love that makes wings magically appear that makes you fly from happiness!
It is a feeling that there are people on this earth do NOT know what "JOY" means!
When God died for us on the cross to save us, and we celebrate easter by the passion week and the Mass of the late saturday we spend in the church! and after seeing when the deacons close the certains and say "ekhristos anesti alisos anesit, el maseah kam bel hakeka kam...." when we go home after that and rejoice the resurrection of christ we celebrate we get with families and etc...... and have an easter party and to me... i dance out of joy!
pray for me please, I am in the time where I need everyone's prayers
I mean, in Paris and Montreal - there are jazz and dance festivals every summer - its not sleazy at all (at least not in Paris).
If one lives as u have described ((which is very noble indeed)) , then why even get out of bed? There is a chance that whilst walking in the street, I COULD come across a woman showing her legs and fall into immense desire and temptation also.
Its dancing... i mean..its NOT dirty dancing.. Ya3ni.. some things people do, they have the nerve to even call it dancing, when its literally foreplay (excuse the expression).
All the servants in my Church in London dance at all the weddings.. in fact, they could probably treach not only belly dancing, but even classical.
I attended a wedding once (I won't say where), in a Copptic church, where during the wedding reception, Abouna put a cloth over the bride and groom so they could kiss each other...
I mean, people are different dude. Many egyptians who come to the west from Egypt are very conservative, and don't understand western traditions. I think this could be one of them.
There you go Vas.
Sometimes people think it's ok to do things just because their conscience agrees with them. When we are exposed to something for a long period of time, we dissolute to our environment. It becomes normal to us. This is one of those things. We really do have to agree on a right or wrong because then everything becomes grey, and we are blind.
Personally, I don't think it's right. Since there is no proof otherwise, it's the safest thing to while we are here on Earth. If you think about it, it's not that big a deal compared to eternal life & the love of Jesus. I don't even think it's worthy of all this contraversy. +God Bless.
Hi Hizz, For the life of me, i still can't see how u can say : "Vassilios, you seem to think that just because something is widely accepted by the world, including Christians AND even Priests, it is acceptable in the eyes of God. " from what i've written above in the quote that you've sent me?
I think, perhaps could be mistaken, but u may have a pre-conception of me that isnt true. So, no matter what i say, that pre-conception is always guiding your opinion and filtering what I say as per your own mental image of me.
No, Perhaps I wasn't specific enough.
All the servants in my Church in London dance at all the weddings.. in fact, they could probably treach not only belly dancing, but even classical.
I attended a wedding once (I won't say where), in a Copptic church, where during the wedding reception, Abouna put a cloth over the bride and groom so they could kiss each other...
I mean, people are different dude. Many egyptians who come to the west from Egypt are very conservative, and don't understand western traditions. I think this could be one of them.
What I understand from that, especially the first paragraph, is that because other people do these things, it makes it ok to do them. This was my original point. Can you see where I'm comming from ? I don't have anything against you Vassilios, perhaps it's the other way around.
bentBABAyasoo`, I can deffinetly see your point, but if an innocent child does something wrong, with no bad intention in it and it hurts another person is that right?
I would't know how to answer this myself, because on the one hand, someone did get hurt, on the other it was not intentional.. BUT it could've been avoided. Do you see how this relates to dancing?
I think what we're really debating now is weather we are judged for doing things that may cause others to sin, WHEN THESE THINGS CAN BE AVOIDED. I will start a new post asking this...
I think its clear Hizz Child that u r assuming how i think: that I think because something is widely accepted that it must be right? Why then was I that wished to counter pornography against children?
My example illustrates that how much widely dancing is "OK" if even our own priests accept it!!
There's nothing wrong with it.
We can't go into details and say :"Vassilios is dancing to show off, that's a sin, and mira is just a saint, so she's cool when she dances"...
We don't care, we don't know about other people's sins.
All im saying is:
If ANYONE has a problem watching someone dance. That person has to deal with it. Its not the dancing that's a problem.
We can go to the extent that a woman in a bikini or swimsuit is very erotic. What then? It means we can't go to swimming clubs, beaches etc so we don't lead ourselves into temptations. We have to now teach women that they must repent/confess for wearing a bikini in a public pool??
As for pornography, my ONLY concern is the effect of pornography on others... i stressed 1,000,000's of times that im not interested in banning porn completely. (although it wouldnt be a bad idea!) - but im against forcing people to change their lifestyle or habits so i don't sin. Sin starts in the heart. Its good to know what problems i have in my heart so i can repent for it.
I'm not assuming anything Vas. You wrote something, and I interpretted it in that way. If I did interpret it in the wrong way, I apologise, but you have not given me an alternate explanation... So I go on to assume that is what you meant.
We can't go into details and say :"Vassilios is dancing to show off, that's a sin, and mira is just a saint, so she's cool when she dances"...
I don't get what you're trying to say there.
If ANYONE has a problem watching someone dance. That person has to deal with it. Its not the dancing that's a problem.
Vas, if some girl was walking around half naked, or even better if II was walking around half naked, and you happened to be in the same room, and I caused you to have evil thoughts in your mind.. Would I not be judged for that also? why would I walk around dressed like that anyway ? Can that whole situation not be avoided in the first place? I am not now arguing the concept of dancing now but the 'making others sin'.. Dancing is a problem if you are causing others to lust, and in the case of bellydancing, that's exaclty the aim of te dance. You move your body in seductive ways etc. etc.. it's all been said before.
We can go to the extent that a woman in a bikini or swimsuit is very erotic. What then? It means we can't go to swimming clubs, beaches etc so we don't lead ourselves into temptations. We have to now teach women that they must repent/confess for wearing a bikini in a public pool??
Yes, if you're wearing a bikini in a swimming pool you should confess it. Our bodies are the temples of the Holy Spirit, respect is due to that. We cannot go around making others look at us as an object of lust, BUTT that's only if we can help it. We can help the way we dress, the way we talk, the way we behave, etc. Anything that is beyond our control does not count because we are doing all we can, the rest is up to God.
[quote author=Hizz_chiilld link=board=11;threadid=4624;start=45#msg63639 date=1164092464] bentBABAyasoo`, I can deffinetly see your point, but if an innocent child does something wrong, with no bad intention in it and it hurts another person is that right?
I would't know how to answer this myself, because on the one hand, someone did get hurt, on the other it was not intentional.. BUT it could've been avoided. Do you see how this relates to dancing?
Hizz Child, you just said, if a child does something with no bad intention and hurts someone ......etc....!! If the child has no bad intention then It is not WRONG!, because the child did it out of an innocent heart, and it is very different than a person killing someone and mean it like "assassinators" or whatever! Then it is wrong, and i see how you relate this to dancing, but if it is dancing like in the egyption movies we see then it is wrong!
I AGREE THAT DANCING OUT OF LUST IS WRONG! but dancing out of JOY is not wrong!
I see where vas is coming from, if that is how the world is then "abona won't let a woman kiss his hand, gurls should not be allowed to swim, etc........."
Hizz_child, You know that muslim girls in egypt wear this black thing over them and you can NOT even see their faces not even their finger nails! Then why didn't H.H. Pope shenoda put that in consideration and let the christian girls/women wear the black thing??? ( I am not going to answer this and i don't want any one too, because we can NOT speak on behalf of the tounge of H.H.) , only then Hizz Child we (girls) won't make anyone fall into lustfull desiers! But did you know that the muslims women that wear black and conver all of their bodeis get harrassed on the streets in egypt? PLEASE SOMEBODY TELL ME...... WHAT CAN A GUY SEE IN A GIRL, THAT IS WEARING THAT BLACK THING OVER HER AND YOU CAN NOT EVEN SEE HER NAILS, TO HARRASS??? ( SOMEBODY PLEASE ANSWER ME!)
If God wanted to NOT EVEN create Females "he wouldn't have created eve"
How about another point, Most people say that dance causes LUST for others because the person who is dancing move their bodies in a seductive ways! ok, mashey no prob., What about BIsexuals? Any person of the same sex they see think IS HOTT or whatever they think! " so in my opinon I think there should be a LAW that Kill all females on earth and bisexuals, then it will be a Male world, and no one would fall in temptations or/and have lustfull thoughts!"
Lust is all around us, even if you just have your hair down somebody is gonna have "a lustfull desire", and please do NOT let me tell you what it is!
Or how about another idea "Both men and women should wear the black thing so no one would fall in lust"
Or how about just "pluck your eyes out" like it says in the bible???????
OK Hizz child, I was in london last week, and i went this really exclusive gym in Kensington. I sat in the spa and just relaxed with a few other guys , when 2 women, wearing bikinis walked in, and went into the pool.
No one looked at them.
I just said to myself: "OK.. im gonna see which guy looks twice: and then i did, and i was embarassed, cos, no one looked".
Not everyone is going to have lustful thoughts.
People are capable of not drooling or "undressing women" in their heads when they see them.
I don't see why a woman who decides to wear a bikini should confess for wearing a bikini? She has committed no sin! If i look at her, and have lustful thoughts, then the problem is with my eye.
What's it got to do with her??? God is more interested in what state my heart is in and what effort i've done in purifying my heart from thoughts rather than creating for me a world where temptations do not exist.
When He sees that im struggling and praying and convicting my heart from lustful desires, then this is good.
I went to a nudist beach once, by accident (!!) i must add, in Saint Tropez, and - NO ONE was looking at anyone! Believe me!!
This problem of lust is in the heart, and doesnt depend on others wearing bikinis, dancing, not dancing, singing, walking...
Why don't u just hide yourself from the world then Hizz Child?
Let's say u looked in the mirror and u thought u were absolutely gorgeous... so, not as to lead others into ANY possible temptation why not kill yourself??? So that way, no one will have to see u and your beauty and have any desires???
That's an option ??? To commit suicide?? Christ said that if your eye causes u to sin, then pluck it out. He never said if my eye causes someone else to sin to pluck it out.
The logical conclusion to your argument is a world in which Islam is the dominant religion. Where to protect others, you instill a social law so, by everyone obeying social laws, then u protect people from having lustful desires. Frankly speaking, U DONT PROTECT THEM FROM THIS. Their problem is never dealt with!! They don't deal with it. They are like savage animals , kept in cages, waiting to explode, and when they come to the free west, man - do they explode. So, their problem has never been addressed.
Christ tackles the root cause of the problem. The change happens on a per-heart basis. What's in my heart has to be fixed. Period. If u wanna walk around naked, and i've conquered any lustful thoughts, and prayed for this... and in my heart I have more fear of the Lord then, most likely, i won't even look at u!!
Most guys, believe it or not we WON't EVEN LOOK at u if u are half naked! Even if u are pretty... its remarkable. Most men, would probably shun their heads to the floor out of feeling embarassed that u are naked. Its very arrogant for a girl to assume that we drool and look at girls all the time.
Im not even talking about Christian men...
Im talking about aethiests. My friends who don't believe in God don't look twice at a girl who's half naked... Their reasoning is: its rude to stare, and let people dress as they wish, and its none of my business. Perhaps its a different reason to why i turn my head; but still, they do the same action as someone christian!
Im saying that wearing a bikini is NOT a sin ; but i think men are also attracted by the intelligence a woman has with respect to the clothes she wears!!! But whatever she decides to wear, reflects her taste..
Believe me, if there is lust in the heart, a woman can even be veiled and a man will STILL have lustful thoughts.
Hi guys, I erased my last post, cos i shouldnt say anything bad about any other religion. I didnt say anything bad, but, i think it could be interpreted that way, so i erased it so no one would be offended.
My apologies.
In any case, if sayedna Anba David says that belly dancing is wrong - then - u know what? Its fine by me... but ask him if the waltz is wrong or salsa? Cos it took me ages to learn,and i taught salsa even, so i dred to think that i actually led other people into sin?
[quote author=markoc pi apostolo link=board=11;threadid=4624;start=45#msg63666 date=1164132282] http://tasbeha.org/mp3/Sermons/Bishops/H.G._Bishop_David.html hope this helps this was the sermon from the other time and it didn't show up i just found out so enjoy. GBWUA
Hey, I listened to it!
It is nice i like it!
However, Anba david is talking about "bachlor's party/ bachlerot party, drinking, rape music, and the consequences!" ThAT IS WRONG WITH NO DOUBTS!!!!
If anyone think this is what you think when i say "celebration", please think again!
When I say celebration I mean "EGYPTIAN STYLE" (If you do NOT know what egyptian STYLE MEANS, I will explain)! When I said "EGYPTIAN STYLE" I mean the SA3IDA band, with drums and the flute, and people claping and enjoying the music! Def. no DRINKING of what so ever, no belly dancers, no RAPE music! so only then it is not wrong to dance, at weddings/celebrations!
It is a pure celebration! and by the way " GOD IS ALAWYS in celbrations especially weddings! and he is there! and the dancing that happended in my brother's wedding/ the dancing I do is PURE!"
http://tasbeha.org/mp3/Sermons/Bishops/H.G._Bishop_Youssef.html listen to the crowning ceremony... An excellllllent wealth of wisdom in this one... in response to bachelor parties and wedding ceremonies, listen from 1hour 11 minutes and 43 seconds onwards. He is quite clear and adamant about his position on these matters. It would seem that if this forum dicusses this issue to the end of days, we will remain as the U.N. ..... without a consensus. Let's instead take it from one in a position to give a clear answer of God's ideas concerning this subject.
Comments
I can see your point of view and that same verse came to mind. I realize that if someone doesn't feel that something is a sin, then we shouldn't make it a sin to them. I also hope you dont feel that the post was referring to the dancing at weddings situation. There was dancing at my wedding to be quite honest. My point was that I feel that what goes right along with that verse you quoted was also the one that I quoted. Yes, we may feel that it is not a sin, fine. But lets first and foremost consider the feelings and weaknesses of others.
With respect to following the traditions of the country, I am quite sure that you are aware there are a ton of traditions every country and creed holds dear that we as Copts and Christs followers cannot adhere to. This is one that is open to interpretation i guess others are more clear cut.
God Bless you all.
by the way Vas, Brooklyn, not Islamic Egypt ;)
Neither is Canada where that priest's wife lives.
But tell me: your argument was taken from the book of Romans that states: "Do not do anything that tempts your brothers or sisters that makes them stumble".
Well, if our actions make u stumble, why then don't u pluck your eye out? Surely that's also a verse in the Bible? That way, we can all dance together? U can definately watch?? OK.. perhaps not watch, but we'd let u know, that we're having a good time??
But its a verse in the Bible for people who have a "stumbling" problem. Christ is suggesting for you to pluck "YOUR" eye out. He didnt say "Find the person who made u have a lustful thought and pluck their eyes out". YOUR eyes....
Please answer this.. im so curious
ps.. u were not born in Brooklyn, but u went there at what age?? were u young? or did u immigrate when u were around 20 ??
Sometimes people think it's ok to do things just because their conscience agrees with them. When we are exposed to something for a long period of time, we dissolute to our environment. It becomes normal to us. This is one of those things. We really do have to agree on a right or wrong because then everything becomes grey, and we are blind.
Personally, I don't think it's right. Since there is no proof otherwise, it's the safest thing to while we are here on Earth. If you think about it, it's not that big a deal compared to eternal life & the love of Jesus. I don't even think it's worthy of all this contraversy.
+God Bless.
He offers them as a kind of good conduct, or as saving situations. A physician may tell the patient many lies, justifying this before his conscience as "keeping up the patient's morale" and protecting him from collapse so as to be cured.
Some people call certain lies "white lies" and on the first of April they call these lies jests, jokes or some other similar name.
In this way, how easy it is for the devil to call dancing an art!
And to call rude and shameless pictures an art as well; and the same with rude statues. Acting in the theatre and cinema is included under this name 'art', however sinful it may be
His Holiness Pope Shenouda III
BTW: welcome Forgiven 1
I sense that I seem to have offended you in some way, and that is not at all my intention, I apologize if what I wrote was offensive to you in any way shape or form. Therefore, I am going to hu,bly bow out of this one, as I only intended to add to the opinions, but before I do I just wanted to clear up what I meant.
You are absolutely right, as Christ said it would be better for us to pluck our own eyes out and enter the Kingdom maimed then to enter eternal damnation with a complete body. There is evil and temptation everywhere and if I cannot resist it, then it is my problem, and one must deal with their own issues (plucking eyes out for example). The idea that I intended to come across with is that in our quest to become better examples of Christ, one of the things that we should take into consideration (as it is written) is the actions we take that cause our brethren to stumble. I am not suggesting that any one else change themselves..i.e. if there happened upon me an individual that tempted my eyes, I would not go to her and suggest that she would change, I would flee from before her. There is also the issue of free will, Christ is not forcing anybody's hand and it is not my intention to do so either. I am simply responding to the subject of this topic in the manner that I try to live my life. I was born in Brooklyn Vas, my first visit to Egypt was 2 years ago and I have been back once since. The traditions that I speak of therefore are really not traditions at all, they are derived form the poor understanding that I have of God's word. It is possible to live in all parts of the world and not conform to the world and its traditions. But that is just my personal choice.Again I apolozize to you and anyone else that may have taken the meaning of this the wrong way. God Bless to all
We all know that in egypt, the parents go to a place and cut off a piece of the child's private part (wheter gurl or boy)!
It is written in the old testment (just like dancing), However, the parents do NOT think it is wrong so they do it because it is in the old testment, just like dancing! Meanwhile, there are other people who say "well, in the old testment Jacob fooled his dad, Joseph got sold to slavery by his brothers, the Isralities made a statue of a calf when moses was up in the mountain getting god's commendments, and etc........."
So to some people it is right (and think it is and their conscience/heart is ok with it), also there are to some people it is wrong (and think it is wrong, and their conscience/heart is NOT ok with it).
Also, I have another point to make.
Art, is something astonishing! Famous artists used/are to paint picture/sculpture statues of nudity!
Whether it is wrong or right it is ART!
just like dancing (it is art) Ballarina, salsa, hip hop, belly dancing, etc........... (art)!
pray for me
Mashey guys,
We all know that in egypt, the parents go to a place and cut off a piece of the child's private part (wheter gurl or boy)!
In the OT it doesn't say anything about circumcision for girls, and not many egyptians circumcise girls. Circumcission was a sign of the covenant that God had with Abraam, and when Jesus came, He told us it was not compulsory.
It's more healthy for a boy to lose his foreskin, there is less chance of complications arising that way.
That's not OK, look at this verse. This verse tells us we have to differentiate between right and wrong, theres no in between. We have to agree on this.
This is what my confession father told me and I agree with him 100%. Dancing is not wrong UNLESS:
- You are dancing to inapropriate music
- You are dancing around people that may have impure thoughts, [girls, that pretty much ALL guys, young or old.]
- You are dancing innapropriately.
In my view belly dancing is innapropriate. Simply because all you do is move your behind around in a seductive way.
People get out on the stage and throw their bodies around in a very seductive way, that is what is wrong with dancing, and it is just as wrong to watch it.
Dancing is a worldly activity that has no place in a Christians life. Your body is a holy sacrifice not a tool to attract someone and lead them astray by dance moves. Remember the innocent John the Baptist lost his head because of a seductive dance.
Dancing is of the world not of God and that is the difference between today’s dancing and dancing in the bible. In the Old Testament they danced during victorious occasions such as crossing of the Red Sea “When Pharaoh’s horses, chariots and horsemen went into the sea, the Lord brought the waters of the sea back over them, but the Israelites walked through the sea on dry ground. Then Miriam the prophetess, Aaron’s sister, took a tambourine in her hand, and all the women followed her, with tambourines and dancing. Miriam sang to them” (Exodus 15:19-21).
In contrast, is the celebration of important occasions such as the return of the prodigal son in the New Testament “Father, I have sinned against heaven and against you. I am no longer worthy to be called your son. But the father said to his servants, Quick! Bring the best robe and put it on him. Put a ring on his finger and sandals on his feet. Bring the fattened calf and kill it. Let’s have a feast and celebrate. For this son of mine was dead and is alive again; he was lost and is found. So they began to celebrate” (Luke 15:21-29). Just as weddings are a important and special occasions but the concern is that dancing is a stumbling block to many people and generates lustful moves, thoughts, or intentions.
Anyone heard of that song by Akon called belly dancer, that is a perfect example of someone falling into lust because of dancing. If you haven’t heard it goggle it and read the lyrics.
If you know dancing will create temptation and lust why do it?
Let me explain to you why, The Isralities danced out of JOY and sang out of JOY and also celebrated out of JOY, because the sea closed on Pharoh and all of his soliders.
ALso, The prodigal son , His father threw a big celebration because his son was dead and now alive, lost and now found....!!
I completly agree that dancing is wrong when it causes lust, also I agree that THE belly dancers' suit is unappropiate, However DANCING OUT OF JOY IS NOT WRONG!!!!! because you have no itential bad lust thoughts because your mind and heart are too busy being JOYFULL and all your mind and heart can do after thanking God is rejoy!
I will give you an example, My oldest brother got married recently and (please notice i said OLDEST) , we (my family) threw him the biggest reception ever! we celebrated, we sang, and ( watch for it) we DANCED!
I mean for crying out sakes, Girls had their pretty dress on, and you can't even see their bodies, guys were in suits!
HIzz child, I also agree with what you FOC told you, However; he did NOT say anything about "DANCING FOR JOY IS WRONG"!!
pray for me,
lots of love
I THINK IT IS COMPLETLY WRONG!! but that is not the point!
I completly agree that dancing is wrong when it causes lust, also I agree that THE belly dancers' suit is unappropiate, However DANCING OUT OF JOY IS NOT WRONG!!!!! because you have no itential bad lust thoughts because your mind and heart are too busy being JOYFULL and all your mind and heart can do after thanking God is rejoy!
good point, of course at the time of dancing you dont think lustful thoughts, but are you seriously thinking of God when your belly dancing? its the aftermath, you intially have pure thoughts but my question is do they remain pure??
“There is a time for everything, and a season for every activity under heaven: ... a time to mourn and a time to dance” (Ecclesiastes 3:1,4), this also supports your point tooo bentBABAyasooa`but honestly i think it depends on whom your with, where you are, what your dancing to and the type of dancing.
Hey Vas, in reply to your last post...
I sense that I seem to have offended you in some way, and that is not at all my intention, I apologize if what I wrote was offensive to you in any way shape or form. Therefore, I am going to hu,bly bow out of this one, as I only intended to add to the opinions, but before I do I just wanted to clear up what I meant.
You are absolutely right, as Christ said it would be better for us to pluck our own eyes out and enter the Kingdom maimed then to enter eternal damnation with a complete body. There is evil and temptation everywhere and if I cannot resist it, then it is my problem, and one must deal with their own issues (plucking eyes out for example). The idea that I intended to come across with is that in our quest to become better examples of Christ, one of the things that we should take into consideration (as it is written) is the actions we take that cause our brethren to stumble. I am not suggesting that any one else change themselves..i.e. if there happened upon me an individual that tempted my eyes, I would not go to her and suggest that she would change, I would flee from before her. There is also the issue of free will, Christ is not forcing anybody's hand and it is not my intention to do so either. I am simply responding to the subject of this topic in the manner that I try to live my life. I was born in Brooklyn Vas, my first visit to Egypt was 2 years ago and I have been back once since. The traditions that I speak of therefore are really not traditions at all, they are derived form the poor understanding that I have of God's word. It is possible to live in all parts of the world and not conform to the world and its traditions. But that is just my personal choice.Again I apolozize to you and anyone else that may have taken the meaning of this the wrong way. God Bless to all
No Forgiven, not at all, u havent offended me ONE bit...because we disagree, its fine.. why would u offend me?? Its very noble to see people like yourself and HizzChild and others even combat worldly activities to lead a holy life. Well done.
I just don't think its "a sin".
Listen, let me give u an example:
Your argument is this: Its wrong to dance because we lead each other into temptation? Right?
OK.. so is it wrong to swim in a swimming pool ?? Girls go there too, and will dress in a bikini or swimsuit. We have to use the pool together. Shall we just make them veiled?? Forgiven, this sounds like a very islamic attitude??
I feel there should be spiritual combat in that MY EYES have to learn NOT to look lustfully. It has to!! And it can be done!
I personally don't like belly dancing because its just a girl dancing and guys looking at her. But, believe me, classical dancing isnt that. In fact, it teaches how to respect women and NOT have any lustful thoughts. What if a priest thought this way, he wouldnt allow a woman to kiss his hand?? He wouldnt give Holy Communion to women??
The truth is, they don't have lustful thoughts. Without God, u can do nothing, yet with Him, u can convert a lustful eye into a Holy one!! Im sure!! And for me, this is important because its wrong to excommunicate yourself from the world (unless you are a hermit or a greek orthodox monk living on the Holy Mountain!!).
So, at the end of the day, this is how i perceive things:
I totally agree that we should not confuse between right and wrong, but i'm certain enough that there are Copts influenced by islam, and who are none the wiser between right and wrong: ie. what is christian and what is un-christian. My suggestion is this:
If u are interested to know what is Christian (Orthodox); do ONE thing:
--> Go to every single Orthodox Church and get to know the people there. The Greek Orthodox, the Russian, Romanian, Indian, Ethiopian, etc... and ask them. Ask their priests. Because they don't have our culture , yet are 99.999% close to our faith. the 0.1% apparently is semantics. Now, I hope Iqbal can agree with that to make u all feel at ease with this idea; im saying its a good idea because a Greek priest told me the difference was semantics, and i believe him actually.
Sometimes people think it's ok to do things just because their conscience agrees with them. When we are exposed to something for a long period of time, we dissolute to our environment. It becomes normal to us. This is one of those things. We really do have to agree on a right or wrong because then everything becomes grey, and we are blind.
Personally, I don't think it's right. Since there is no proof otherwise, it's the safest thing to while we are here on Earth. If you think about it, it's not that big a deal compared to eternal life & the love of Jesus. I don't even think it's worthy of all this contraversy.
+God Bless.
Hi Hizz,
For the life of me, i still can't see how u can say :
"Vassilios,
you seem to think that just because something is widely accepted by the world, including Christians AND even Priests, it is acceptable in the eyes of God.
" from what i've written above in the quote that you've sent me?
I think, perhaps could be mistaken, but u may have a pre-conception of me that isnt true. So, no matter what i say, that pre-conception is always guiding your opinion and filtering what I say as per your own mental image of me.
Its a beautiful book and shows the love between the Church and Christ. So, can we start to say that :"Look, so we don't tempt others, or make them stumble, let's erase the song of songs from the Bible!"
People have problems, and its on an individual basis that these problems are solved. Once they are solved, u can start to enjoy life to the full. Im sure.
I honestly didnt believe it when my sunday school teacher told us, and i remember being sarcastic about it, and he was upset with me for that because i think he knew how serious it was. I was sooo young at the time!
Anyway, one general rule in the Bible is the focus on one's own actions, not on others. God is asking me to focus on the speck in my eye , my sins, my problems , my eye that causes me to sin has to be plucked out, not the object i was staring at. I think its a case where we have to be responsible for ourselves and independent of what goes on in our hearts regardless of the environment we are in.
God Bless to all....
Keep it simple. We have 11 Commandments:
10 Commandments in the Old Testament, +
1 Commandment = love thy neighbour as thy self.
Plus in the new testament, there's the added clause of what u do in your heart is the same as in your deeds/or actions.
So, obey the commandments. If u sing/dance, joke whatever, and u have no intent on sinning, its OK. just keep the Lord's commandments. There's only 10 of them!! It can't be that hard!!!
I completly see where you guys are coming from, and Your opinion in on the top of my head because i respect it much!
It depends on what is in the heart! If Paige is dancing so she can show off to others or/and to get attention or/and she wants to tempt someone or/and she is doing it out of lust desiers or/and whatever the reason it maybe and it is a bad one! THEN IT IS A SIN!
However, if "MIRA" was dancing out of Joy because of her brother's wedding, her graduation, her wedding, her reception, hopefull she is gonna dance after thanking god when she pass this college semester!, when her fience says "I love you" or whatever the happy reason is that causes her to rejoy and jump up and down! Ladies and Gentelmen...... NO WHERE is this happy reasons involve "LUST", because it is Joy!
When a person turns "16" they rejoy, when they get their driver license they rejoy, when they pass HIGH SCHOOL and graduate they rejoy, When one of their siblings get married/engaged they rejoy, when they find THE ONE guess what? they rejoy!
Rejoice is a marvilious feeling! Full of happiness and love that makes wings magically appear that makes you fly from happiness!
It is a feeling that there are people on this earth do NOT know what "JOY" means!
When God died for us on the cross to save us, and we celebrate easter by the passion week and the Mass of the late saturday we spend in the church! and after seeing when the deacons close the certains and say "ekhristos anesti alisos anesit, el maseah kam bel hakeka kam...." when we go home after that and rejoice the resurrection of christ we celebrate we get with families and etc...... and have an easter party and to me... i dance out of joy!
pray for me please,
I am in the time where I need everyone's prayers
[quote author=Hizz_chiilld link=board=11;threadid=4624;start=30#msg63498 date=1163836027] There you go Vas.
Sometimes people think it's ok to do things just because their conscience agrees with them. When we are exposed to something for a long period of time, we dissolute to our environment. It becomes normal to us. This is one of those things. We really do have to agree on a right or wrong because then everything becomes grey, and we are blind.
Personally, I don't think it's right. Since there is no proof otherwise, it's the safest thing to while we are here on Earth. If you think about it, it's not that big a deal compared to eternal life & the love of Jesus. I don't even think it's worthy of all this contraversy.
+God Bless.
Hi Hizz,
For the life of me, i still can't see how u can say :
"Vassilios,
you seem to think that just because something is widely accepted by the world, including Christians AND even Priests, it is acceptable in the eyes of God.
" from what i've written above in the quote that you've sent me?
I think, perhaps could be mistaken, but u may have a pre-conception of me that isnt true. So, no matter what i say, that pre-conception is always guiding your opinion and filtering what I say as per your own mental image of me.
No,
Perhaps I wasn't specific enough. What I understand from that, especially the first paragraph, is that because other people do these things, it makes it ok to do them. This was my original point. Can you see where I'm comming from ? I don't have anything against you Vassilios, perhaps it's the other way around.
I can deffinetly see your point, but if an innocent child does something wrong, with no bad intention in it and it hurts another person is that right?
I would't know how to answer this myself, because on the one hand, someone did get hurt, on the other it was not intentional.. BUT it could've been avoided. Do you see how this relates to dancing?
I think what we're really debating now is weather we are judged for doing things that may cause others to sin, WHEN THESE THINGS CAN BE AVOIDED. I will start a new post asking this...
Why then was I that wished to counter pornography against children?
My example illustrates that how much widely dancing is "OK" if even our own priests accept it!!
There's nothing wrong with it.
We can't go into details and say :"Vassilios is dancing to show off, that's a sin, and mira is just a saint, so she's cool when she dances"...
We don't care, we don't know about other people's sins.
All im saying is:
If ANYONE has a problem watching someone dance. That person has to deal with it. Its not the dancing that's a problem.
We can go to the extent that a woman in a bikini or swimsuit is very erotic. What then? It means we can't go to swimming clubs, beaches etc so we don't lead ourselves into temptations. We have to now teach women that they must repent/confess for wearing a bikini in a public pool??
As for pornography, my ONLY concern is the effect of pornography on others... i stressed 1,000,000's of times that im not interested in banning porn completely. (although it wouldnt be a bad idea!) - but im against forcing people to change their lifestyle or habits so i don't sin. Sin starts in the heart. Its good to know what problems i have in my heart so i can repent for it.
bentBABAyasoo`,
I can deffinetly see your point, but if an innocent child does something wrong, with no bad intention in it and it hurts another person is that right?
I would't know how to answer this myself, because on the one hand, someone did get hurt, on the other it was not intentional.. BUT it could've been avoided. Do you see how this relates to dancing?
Hizz Child, you just said, if a child does something with no bad intention and hurts someone ......etc....!!
If the child has no bad intention then It is not WRONG!, because the child did it out of an innocent heart, and it is very different than a person killing someone and mean it like "assassinators" or whatever! Then it is wrong, and i see how you relate this to dancing, but if it is dancing like in the egyption movies we see then it is wrong!
I AGREE THAT DANCING OUT OF LUST IS WRONG! but dancing out of JOY is not wrong!
I see where vas is coming from, if that is how the world is then "abona won't let a woman kiss his hand, gurls should not be allowed to swim, etc........."
Hizz_child, You know that muslim girls in egypt wear this black thing over them and you can NOT even see their faces not even their finger nails!
Then why didn't H.H. Pope shenoda put that in consideration and let the christian girls/women wear the black thing??? ( I am not going to answer this and i don't want any one too, because we can NOT speak on behalf of the tounge of H.H.) , only then Hizz Child we (girls) won't make anyone fall into lustfull desiers!
But did you know that the muslims women that wear black and conver all of their bodeis get harrassed on the streets in egypt? PLEASE SOMEBODY TELL ME...... WHAT CAN A GUY SEE IN A GIRL, THAT IS WEARING THAT BLACK THING OVER HER AND YOU CAN NOT EVEN SEE HER NAILS, TO HARRASS??? ( SOMEBODY PLEASE ANSWER ME!)
If God wanted to NOT EVEN create Females "he wouldn't have created eve"
How about another point, Most people say that dance causes LUST for others because the person who is dancing move their bodies in a seductive ways! ok, mashey no prob., What about BIsexuals? Any person of the same sex they see think IS HOTT or whatever they think! " so in my opinon I think there should be a LAW that Kill all females on earth and bisexuals, then it will be a Male world, and no one would fall in temptations or/and have lustfull thoughts!"
Lust is all around us, even if you just have your hair down somebody is gonna have "a lustfull desire", and please do NOT let me tell you what it is!
Or how about another idea "Both men and women should wear the black thing so no one would fall in lust"
Or how about just "pluck your eyes out" like it says in the bible???????
I was in london last week, and i went this really exclusive gym in Kensington. I sat in the spa and just relaxed with a few other guys , when 2 women, wearing bikinis walked in, and went into the pool.
No one looked at them.
I just said to myself: "OK.. im gonna see which guy looks twice: and then i did, and i was embarassed, cos, no one looked".
Not everyone is going to have lustful thoughts.
People are capable of not drooling or "undressing women" in their heads when they see them.
I don't see why a woman who decides to wear a bikini should confess for wearing a bikini? She has committed no sin! If i look at her, and have lustful thoughts, then the problem is with my eye.
What's it got to do with her??? God is more interested in what state my heart is in and what effort i've done in purifying my heart from thoughts rather than creating for me a world where temptations do not exist.
When He sees that im struggling and praying and convicting my heart from lustful desires, then this is good.
I went to a nudist beach once, by accident (!!) i must add, in Saint Tropez, and - NO ONE was looking at anyone! Believe me!!
This problem of lust is in the heart, and doesnt depend on others wearing bikinis, dancing, not dancing, singing, walking...
Why don't u just hide yourself from the world then Hizz Child?
Let's say u looked in the mirror and u thought u were absolutely gorgeous... so, not as to lead others into ANY possible temptation why not kill yourself??? So that way, no one will have to see u and your beauty and have any desires???
That's an option ??? To commit suicide?? Christ said that if your eye causes u to sin, then pluck it out. He never said if my eye causes someone else to sin to pluck it out.
The logical conclusion to your argument is a world in which Islam is the dominant religion. Where to protect others, you instill a social law so, by everyone obeying social laws, then u protect people from having lustful desires. Frankly speaking, U DONT PROTECT THEM FROM THIS. Their problem is never dealt with!! They don't deal with it. They are like savage animals , kept in cages, waiting to explode, and when they come to the free west, man - do they explode. So, their problem has never been addressed.
Christ tackles the root cause of the problem. The change happens on a per-heart basis. What's in my heart has to be fixed. Period.
If u wanna walk around naked, and i've conquered any lustful thoughts, and prayed for this... and in my heart I have more fear of the Lord then, most likely, i won't even look at u!!
Most guys, believe it or not we WON't EVEN LOOK at u if u are half naked! Even if u are pretty... its remarkable. Most men, would probably shun their heads to the floor out of feeling embarassed that u are naked. Its very arrogant for a girl to assume that we drool and look at girls all the time.
Im not even talking about Christian men...
Im talking about aethiests. My friends who don't believe in God don't look twice at a girl who's half naked... Their reasoning is: its rude to stare, and let people dress as they wish, and its none of my business. Perhaps its a different reason to why i turn my head; but still, they do the same action as someone christian!
Im saying that wearing a bikini is NOT a sin ; but i think men are also attracted by the intelligence a woman has with respect to the clothes she wears!!! But whatever she decides to wear, reflects her taste..
Believe me, if there is lust in the heart, a woman can even be veiled and a man will STILL have lustful thoughts.
GBWUA
I erased my last post, cos i shouldnt say anything bad about any other religion. I didnt say anything bad, but, i think it could be interpreted that way, so i erased it so no one would be offended.
My apologies.
In any case, if sayedna Anba David says that belly dancing is wrong - then - u know what? Its fine by me... but ask him if the waltz is wrong or salsa? Cos it took me ages to learn,and i taught salsa even, so i dred to think that i actually led other people into sin?
http://tasbeha.org/mp3/Sermons/Bishops/H.G._Bishop_David.html hope this helps this was the sermon from the other time and it didn't show up i just found out so enjoy.
GBWUA
Hey, I listened to it!
It is nice i like it!
However, Anba david is talking about "bachlor's party/ bachlerot party, drinking, rape music, and the consequences!"
ThAT IS WRONG WITH NO DOUBTS!!!!
If anyone think this is what you think when i say "celebration", please think again!
When I say celebration I mean "EGYPTIAN STYLE" (If you do NOT know what egyptian STYLE MEANS, I will explain)! When I said "EGYPTIAN STYLE" I mean the SA3IDA band, with drums and the flute, and people claping and enjoying the music!
Def. no DRINKING of what so ever, no belly dancers, no RAPE music!
so only then it is not wrong to dance, at weddings/celebrations!
It is a pure celebration! and by the way " GOD IS ALAWYS in celbrations especially weddings! and he is there! and the dancing that happended in my brother's wedding/ the dancing I do is PURE!"
3 written answers by Anba Youssef on the subject of dancing
http://tasbeha.org/mp3/Sermons/Bishops/H.G._Bishop_Youssef.html
listen to the crowning ceremony... An excellllllent wealth of wisdom in this one... in response to bachelor parties and wedding ceremonies, listen from 1hour 11 minutes and 43 seconds onwards. He is quite clear and adamant about his position on these matters. It would seem that if this forum dicusses this issue to the end of days, we will remain as the U.N. ..... without a consensus. Let's instead take it from one in a position to give a clear answer of God's ideas concerning this subject.
Also know this is not a Coptic tradition! It was brought about by Arabs and their culture.
Nice wholesome dances such as Greek dancing or just plain playing around is not bad. Just be on the lookout for the songs that you listen to.
For example Heavy Metal is satanical music, that may insight you to smash stuff is also bad.