If your alone or with a very small number of people you could do that, but dont go too far. Before u know it you will skip almost all and introduce the weirdest hymns.
The best way however is to just all ur friends the entire tasbeha ;).
The problem with not following the order is that you may become lazy to continue the whole service, and u'll stop once u get bored. It's kinda the same with the agbeya, if u don't have a standard amount of prayers u'll just say a couple of words and close the book again. On the other hand, the length/"difficulty" of tasbeha shouldnt be an obstacle to not pray it. Search for a balance lol, for instance sometimes when we do a weekday tasbeha and we dont have much time we choose to do it the Vesper praise way to finish in 30 minutes (ie from the fourth Hoos untill the end), instead of doing the whole tasbeha at turbo speed and not gain anything cause ur too busy turning over the page, that u forget to pray.
[quote author=vassilios link=board=2;threadid=4683;start=30#msg64067 date=1164841402] [quote author=minagir link=board=2;threadid=4683;start=15#msg64014 date=1164754848] [quote author=vassilios link=board=2;threadid=4683;start=15#msg64013 date=1164754470] [quote author=Hos Erof link=board=2;threadid=4683;start=15#msg64010 date=1164753985] Mina, what is ur source for saying things from the Tasbeha (shere ne maria etc). From what i know is that the hymn which is to be said when the bride enters the church is Shere Maria (The paralexis of the hymn of the blessing), not Shere ne Maria.
The popular practise however is to let both the bride and groom enter at the same time while chanting Ipouro, while singing Shere Maria when leaving the church again.
I totally agree. I can't imagine anyone singing anything from the tasbeha in a wedding.
I think we need to put Mina through a Coptic Check up.
Mina - here are a few questions we need u to answer before u continue any more dialogue on this site - ok. Just answer the questions as honestly and accurately as u can - K?
* have u had any affiliation with Jehovah's witnesses in the past 5 months? * Have u ever contemplated on what purgortary must be like? * Do u pray in tongues??
I feel mina is Coptic, but this tasbeha in weddings is making me worried.
Big big LOL for you. first to all the quesion NOOO, and if yes i would be lying because they all wouldn't have TASBEHA........ ;D ;D ;D ;D
I spoke to my FoC concerning the singing of Atai-Parthenos. I thought he'd think it was a good idea... but he didnt. He said :"Nope.. we just sing Shere Maria".
I think its OK to be creative in a wedding. Even the tasbeha.. let's say no one knows a certain song in the tasbeha in Coptic... feel free to skip it?? Do you know what I mean, or even replace it with something else?? Why not?? What's the point? Let's say someone doesnt know the 3rd Hoss.. OK? Why not use another Coptic Hymn you do know instead that is similar?? and then continue with the other Hoss's and the rest of the Ispsalmodia?
because there is somthing called rites of our alhan. you can't just go and make up your own lhn or own psalmodeia. if you don't know a certain lhn, khalas, just read it. or don't do tasbeha to start with. you can just read it to yourself which would benifit you more that making up your own lhn.
our coptic church is a church that relies on traditions and rites.
I agree, there are rites. But let's say u are doing the Tasbeha. And you come across a Hoss which u don't know? What are u going to do?
This happened to us once. It was in the fasting period , and we were doing the tasbeha, and someone pointed out that the chapter we were singing in the tasbeha wasnt relevant in the fasting period, and we had to sing something else. That 'something else' NO ONE KNEW IT. No one could sing it... the Coptic was too hard to read it. No one understood it. It was one of those songs that wasnt even translated into english, but because of fanatism, they insisted in singing it.
[quote author=vassilios link=board=2;threadid=4683;start=30#msg64076 date=1164844206] I agree, there are rites. But let's say u are doing the Tasbeha. And you come across a Hoss which u don't know? What are u going to do?
This happened to us once. It was in the fasting period , and we were doing the tasbeha, and someone pointed out that the chapter we were singing in the tasbeha wasnt relevant in the fasting period, and we had to sing something else. That 'something else' NO ONE KNEW IT. No one could sing it... the Coptic was too hard to read it. No one understood it. It was one of those songs that wasnt even translated into english, but because of fanatism, they insisted in singing it.
Hey Mina, We were doing the tasbeha... in a group of 3, when i wanted to do finish Ten Thino and then move on to the funky stuff... u know, 1st Hoss, 2nd Hoss etc.. when some smarty pants says to us:" Wait.. we cannot proceed, we have to do this section in the hazayni tune for lent". He didnt know it. I didnt know it. I don't even read arabic well to have understood it.
Man, it was like applying for a visa to go to Canada! We had papers to fill in, rituals to follow, difficult tasks just because of rituals... it was too much.
I don't know the hymn Mina, sorry - but i wanna say: i really respect rituals, but not to the extent where it becomes fanatical and we don't really understand what we're doing or sayinng.
Look, i wish to make one small point. I find the tune in lent very sad, and solemn, YET: Its there for a reason and that reason for me is worth it! But to start singing something no one knows how to sing because our Coptic is bad , or because we happened to forget the tune, and we're doing it because "its the right thing to do for lent" -- this is fanatical.
Skip it - or say it in a tune you know. What's wrong with that??
[quote author=vassilios link=board=2;threadid=4683;start=30#msg64150 date=1164930761] Hey Mina, We were doing the tasbeha... in a group of 3, when i wanted to do finish Ten Thino and then move on to the funky stuff... u know, 1st Hoss, 2nd Hoss etc.. when some smarty pants says to us:" Wait.. we cannot proceed, we have to do this section in the hazayni tune for lent". He didnt know it. I didnt know it. I don't even read arabic well to have understood it.
Man, it was like applying for a visa to go to Canada! We had papers to fill in, rituals to follow, difficult tasks just because of rituals... it was too much.
I don't know the hymn Mina, sorry - but i wanna say: i really respect rituals, but not to the extent where it becomes fanatical and we don't really understand what we're doing or sayinng.
well the person who did is doesn't know what he is talking about. if it's the Great Hoos like Hos Erof says, you don't really really have to say it. in my church we don't say it. and it's not mandatory or anything. sorry vassilios but sometimes people just hear somthing or learn one think and than refuse to learn the rest of it and refuse to change. so....
Mina, I just want to draw something important to your attention.
Now, i see that you understand what i'm saying... however, there is an important aspect that we should not neglect:
When i see young kids following Church rituals , even to a bit of fanatism, im not so sure its all that bad... i mean, its a sign of respect still for the Church. That's good still.
They need some guidance i think so that they are encouraged to keep the Church rituals, yet at the same time, not be fanatical to the extent that they are not praying because they don't understand what they are saying nor doing. That a song they know off by heart is better than something they have no clue about.... and even mis-pronouncing it just for the sake of singing something in a tune because it "has to be sung" in that period of time within the Church.
I was just informed that in the latest wedding book reviewed by HE Bishoy, included tee shory not tai shory. also HICS themselves have recorded tee shory, who else can you trust.
In "Akel Amlaak" we say Tay Shory. In the Weeding we Say Ti Shory. According to the book of Deacon Service "Khedmat El Shamas", Nahdat El Kanaes, 4th Ed., 1977, CAIRO. Which is the accurate reference.
is there a specific reason that we say ti shouri? I always thought on all "joyfull days" (ie sundays, except lent, and non fasting days) we should chant tai shouri...
one other thing Bishop metaous also wrote a book on weddings thats bound to have the reason but im sorry i dunno where that book is. pray for my weakself
[quote author=heavenly_mark link=topic=4683.msg66978#msg66978 date=1170392002] hey pplz absolve my weakself but we say ti shoory pray for me ur sinful servant Mark
lol, first we don't absolve priests do.
second like i said before, there is people who just stick to what they learned. and am sure what they learned was right am not against that, am just saying that they learned part of what to do when this or that but not the full thing. like WB said:
[quote author=WB link=topic=4683.msg65684#msg65684 date=1167610537] In "Akel Amlaak" we say Tay Shory. In the Weeding we Say Ti Shory. According to the book of Deacon Service "Khedmat El Shamas", Nahdat El Kanaes, 4th Ed., 1977, CAIRO. Which is the accurate reference.
since you're doing Wedding, you say te shorry. since it's a wedding not a " 'aqd emlak ". it's clearly states that in our church books. also since there is no moe 'qad emlak, no more taishory.
[quote author=Gods kid link=topic=4683.msg67628#msg67628 date=1171574660] What is "akd amlak"?
The word "'aqd el-emlak" literally means "Contract of Property". This was a liturgy that was done in link to the wedding (Before the Divine Eucharist Liturgy-in the old days). It is a separate liturgy that has its on prayers, hymns, psalm and gospel. It is not used anymore do to the timing because it was long in time as our real weddings are. So the church kind of put it on the side and merged it into the wedding prayers. Here is the rite of the Holy Matrimony - Crowning Ceremony (Click on the link).
So here is the confusion: according to the original church rites and books, "[coptic]Tai Soury[/Coptic]" is said in ‘aqd al-emlak, and "[coptic]}soury[/coptic]" is said in wedding. So the church kept "[coptic]}soury[/coptic]" for weddings as it was to be sung.
[quote author=minagir link=topic=4683.msg67844#msg67844 date=1171997486] [quote author=Gods kid link=topic=4683.msg67628#msg67628 date=1171574660] What is "akd amlak"?
The word "'aqd el-emlak" literally means "Contract of Property". This was a liturgy that was done in link to the wedding (Before the Divine Eucharist Liturgy-in the old days). It is a separate liturgy that has its on prayers, hymns, psalm and gospel. It is not used anymore do to the timing because it was long in time as our real weddings are. So the church kind of put it on the side and merged it into the wedding prayers. Here is the rite of the Holy Matrimony - Crowning Ceremony (Click on the link).
So here is the confusion: according to the original church rites and books, "[coptic]Tai Soury[/Coptic]" is said in ‘aqd al-emlak, and "[coptic]}soury[/coptic]" is said in wedding. So the church kept "[coptic]}soury[/coptic]" for weddings as it was to be sung.
Was the "aqd el-emlak" Liturgy the day before the wedding, or the same day, etc. . . . Why was it called the 'Contract of Property'? (Where did they get that name from?)
[quote author=Gods kid link=topic=4683.msg67930#msg67930 date=1172176894] [quote author=minagir link=topic=4683.msg67844#msg67844 date=1171997486] [quote author=Gods kid link=topic=4683.msg67628#msg67628 date=1171574660] What is "akd amlak"?
The word "'aqd el-emlak" literally means "Contract of Property". This was a liturgy that was done in link to the wedding (Before the Divine Eucharist Liturgy-in the old days). It is a separate liturgy that has its on prayers, hymns, psalm and gospel. It is not used anymore do to the timing because it was long in time as our real weddings are. So the church kind of put it on the side and merged it into the wedding prayers. Here is the rite of the Holy Matrimony - Crowning Ceremony (Click on the link).
So here is the confusion: according to the original church rites and books, "[coptic]Tai Soury[/Coptic]" is said in ‘aqd al-emlak, and "[coptic]}soury[/coptic]" is said in wedding. So the church kept "[coptic]}soury[/coptic]" for weddings as it was to be sung.
Was the "aqd el-emlak" Liturgy the day before the wedding, or the same day, etc. . . . Why was it called the 'Contract of Property'? (Where did they get that name from?)
I am not sure about that. I'll ask the person who told me about this and I'll get back to you. But i am positive that at some point of time, they were back to back.
Another question, during this service, were the bride and groom clothed in the outfits for their wedding? Did they stand in front of the whole Church like they do for the wedding?
[quote author=Gods kid link=topic=4683.msg67933#msg67933 date=1172178608] Another question, during this service, were the bride and groom clothed in the outfits for their wedding? Did they stand in front of the whole Church like they do for the wedding?
There isn't anything differnt when comparing to a wedding except the prayers and the hymns. Anyway it's not used anymore so.....
[quote author=Gods kid link=topic=4683.msg67930#msg67930 date=1172176894] Was the "aqd el-emlak" Liturgy the day before the wedding, or the same day, etc. . . . Why was it called the 'Contract of Property'? (Where did they get that name from?)
The "Contract of Property" was basically a service to replace engagements since engagements were not there at the time. But it's different than engagement. How so? In the contract, the couples are married spiritually, legally, officially but not physically. Also there was no way you can break the contract. So that was so harsh for everyone to handle. So engagement replaced that contract of property so it would be a little easier to get married.
Comments
The best way however is to just all ur friends the entire tasbeha ;).
The problem with not following the order is that you may become lazy to continue the whole service, and u'll stop once u get bored. It's kinda the same with the agbeya, if u don't have a standard amount of prayers u'll just say a couple of words and close the book again.
On the other hand, the length/"difficulty" of tasbeha shouldnt be an obstacle to not pray it. Search for a balance lol, for instance sometimes when we do a weekday tasbeha and we dont have much time we choose to do it the Vesper praise way to finish in 30 minutes (ie from the fourth Hoos untill the end), instead of doing the whole tasbeha at turbo speed and not gain anything cause ur too busy turning over the page, that u forget to pray.
Whats wrong with the Third Canticle anyway? :P
[quote author=minagir link=board=2;threadid=4683;start=15#msg64014 date=1164754848]
[quote author=vassilios link=board=2;threadid=4683;start=15#msg64013 date=1164754470]
[quote author=Hos Erof link=board=2;threadid=4683;start=15#msg64010 date=1164753985]
Mina, what is ur source for saying things from the Tasbeha (shere ne maria etc). From what i know is that the hymn which is to be said when the bride enters the church is Shere Maria (The paralexis of the hymn of the blessing), not Shere ne Maria.
The popular practise however is to let both the bride and groom enter at the same time while chanting Ipouro, while singing Shere Maria when leaving the church again.
I totally agree. I can't imagine anyone singing anything from the tasbeha in a wedding.
I think we need to put Mina through a Coptic Check up.
Mina - here are a few questions we need u to answer before u continue any more dialogue on this site - ok. Just answer the questions as honestly and accurately as u can - K?
* have u had any affiliation with Jehovah's witnesses in the past 5 months?
* Have u ever contemplated on what purgortary must be like?
* Do u pray in tongues??
I feel mina is Coptic, but this tasbeha in weddings is making me worried.
Big big LOL for you.
first to all the quesion NOOO, and if yes i would be lying because they all wouldn't have TASBEHA........ ;D ;D ;D ;D
I spoke to my FoC concerning the singing of Atai-Parthenos. I thought he'd think it was a good idea... but he didnt. He said :"Nope.. we just sing Shere Maria".
I think its OK to be creative in a wedding. Even the tasbeha.. let's say no one knows a certain song in the tasbeha in Coptic... feel free to skip it?? Do you know what I mean, or even replace it with something else?? Why not?? What's the point?
Let's say someone doesnt know the 3rd Hoss.. OK? Why not use another Coptic Hymn you do know instead that is similar?? and then continue with the other Hoss's and the rest of the Ispsalmodia?
because there is somthing called rites of our alhan. you can't just go and make up your own lhn or own psalmodeia. if you don't know a certain lhn, khalas, just read it. or don't do tasbeha to start with. you can just read it to yourself which would benifit you more that making up your own lhn.
our coptic church is a church that relies on traditions and rites.
This happened to us once. It was in the fasting period , and we were doing the tasbeha, and someone pointed out that the chapter we were singing in the tasbeha wasnt relevant in the fasting period, and we had to sing something else. That 'something else' NO ONE KNEW IT. No one could sing it... the Coptic was too hard to read it. No one understood it. It was one of those songs that wasnt even translated into english, but because of fanatism, they insisted in singing it.
What what the point of that?
I agree, there are rites. But let's say u are doing the Tasbeha. And you come across a Hoss which u don't know? What are u going to do?
This happened to us once. It was in the fasting period , and we were doing the tasbeha, and someone pointed out that the chapter we were singing in the tasbeha wasnt relevant in the fasting period, and we had to sing something else. That 'something else' NO ONE KNEW IT. No one could sing it... the Coptic was too hard to read it. No one understood it. It was one of those songs that wasnt even translated into english, but because of fanatism, they insisted in singing it.
What what the point of that?
can spicifcly tell me which part?
We were doing the tasbeha... in a group of 3, when i wanted to do finish Ten Thino and then move on to the funky stuff... u know, 1st Hoss, 2nd Hoss etc.. when some smarty pants says to us:" Wait.. we cannot proceed, we have to do this section in the hazayni tune for lent". He didnt know it. I didnt know it. I don't even read arabic well to have understood it.
Man, it was like applying for a visa to go to Canada! We had papers to fill in, rituals to follow, difficult tasks just because of rituals... it was too much.
I don't know the hymn Mina, sorry - but i wanna say: i really respect rituals, but not to the extent where it becomes fanatical and we don't really understand what we're doing or sayinng.
Thats the best part of the tasbeha when it comes to seasons ;D
Look, i wish to make one small point. I find the tune in lent very sad, and solemn, YET: Its there for a reason and that reason for me is worth it! But to start singing something no one knows how to sing because our Coptic is bad , or because we happened to forget the tune, and we're doing it because "its the right thing to do for lent" -- this is fanatical.
Skip it - or say it in a tune you know. What's wrong with that??
Hey Mina,
We were doing the tasbeha... in a group of 3, when i wanted to do finish Ten Thino and then move on to the funky stuff... u know, 1st Hoss, 2nd Hoss etc.. when some smarty pants says to us:" Wait.. we cannot proceed, we have to do this section in the hazayni tune for lent". He didnt know it. I didnt know it. I don't even read arabic well to have understood it.
Man, it was like applying for a visa to go to Canada! We had papers to fill in, rituals to follow, difficult tasks just because of rituals... it was too much.
I don't know the hymn Mina, sorry - but i wanna say: i really respect rituals, but not to the extent where it becomes fanatical and we don't really understand what we're doing or sayinng.
well the person who did is doesn't know what he is talking about. if it's the Great Hoos like Hos Erof says, you don't really really have to say it. in my church we don't say it. and it's not mandatory or anything. sorry vassilios but sometimes people just hear somthing or learn one think and than refuse to learn the rest of it and refuse to change. so....
I just want to draw something important to your attention.
Now, i see that you understand what i'm saying... however, there is an important aspect that we should not neglect:
When i see young kids following Church rituals , even to a bit of fanatism, im not so sure its all that bad... i mean, its a sign of respect still for the Church. That's good still.
They need some guidance i think so that they are encouraged to keep the Church rituals, yet at the same time, not be fanatical to the extent that they are not praying because they don't understand what they are saying nor doing. That a song they know off by heart is better than something they have no clue about.... and even mis-pronouncing it just for the sake of singing something in a tune because it "has to be sung" in that period of time within the Church.
Do you agree?
here is the full rite of the coptic Wedding:
The Rite of the Holy Matrimony
pray for me
ur sinful servant Mark
pray for my weakself
hey pplz absolve my weakself but we say ti shoory
pray for me
ur sinful servant Mark
lol, first we don't absolve priests do.
second like i said before, there is people who just stick to what they learned. and am sure what they learned was right am not against that, am just saying that they learned part of what to do when this or that but not the full thing. like WB said:
[quote author=WB link=topic=4683.msg65684#msg65684 date=1167610537]
In "Akel Amlaak" we say Tay Shory. In the Weeding we Say Ti Shory. According to the book of Deacon Service "Khedmat El Shamas", Nahdat El Kanaes, 4th Ed., 1977, CAIRO. Which is the accurate reference.
since you're doing Wedding, you say te shorry. since it's a wedding not a " 'aqd emlak ". it's clearly states that in our church books. also since there is no moe 'qad emlak, no more taishory.
What is "akd amlak"?
The word "'aqd el-emlak" literally means "Contract of Property". This was a liturgy that was done in link to the wedding (Before the Divine Eucharist Liturgy-in the old days). It is a separate liturgy that has its on prayers, hymns, psalm and gospel. It is not used anymore do to the timing because it was long in time as our real weddings are. So the church kind of put it on the side and merged it into the wedding prayers.
Here is the rite of the Holy Matrimony - Crowning Ceremony (Click on the link).
So here is the confusion: according to the original church rites and books, "[coptic]Tai Soury[/Coptic]" is said in ‘aqd al-emlak, and "[coptic]}soury[/coptic]" is said in wedding. So the church kept "[coptic]}soury[/coptic]" for weddings as it was to be sung.
[quote author=Gods kid link=topic=4683.msg67628#msg67628 date=1171574660]
What is "akd amlak"?
The word "'aqd el-emlak" literally means "Contract of Property". This was a liturgy that was done in link to the wedding (Before the Divine Eucharist Liturgy-in the old days). It is a separate liturgy that has its on prayers, hymns, psalm and gospel. It is not used anymore do to the timing because it was long in time as our real weddings are. So the church kind of put it on the side and merged it into the wedding prayers.
Here is the rite of the Holy Matrimony - Crowning Ceremony (Click on the link).
So here is the confusion: according to the original church rites and books, "[coptic]Tai Soury[/Coptic]" is said in ‘aqd al-emlak, and "[coptic]}soury[/coptic]" is said in wedding. So the church kept "[coptic]}soury[/coptic]" for weddings as it was to be sung.
Was the "aqd el-emlak" Liturgy the day before the wedding, or the same day, etc. . . . Why was it called the 'Contract of Property'? (Where did they get that name from?)
[quote author=minagir link=topic=4683.msg67844#msg67844 date=1171997486]
[quote author=Gods kid link=topic=4683.msg67628#msg67628 date=1171574660]
What is "akd amlak"?
The word "'aqd el-emlak" literally means "Contract of Property". This was a liturgy that was done in link to the wedding (Before the Divine Eucharist Liturgy-in the old days). It is a separate liturgy that has its on prayers, hymns, psalm and gospel. It is not used anymore do to the timing because it was long in time as our real weddings are. So the church kind of put it on the side and merged it into the wedding prayers.
Here is the rite of the Holy Matrimony - Crowning Ceremony (Click on the link).
So here is the confusion: according to the original church rites and books, "[coptic]Tai Soury[/Coptic]" is said in ‘aqd al-emlak, and "[coptic]}soury[/coptic]" is said in wedding. So the church kept "[coptic]}soury[/coptic]" for weddings as it was to be sung.
Was the "aqd el-emlak" Liturgy the day before the wedding, or the same day, etc. . . . Why was it called the 'Contract of Property'? (Where did they get that name from?)
I am not sure about that. I'll ask the person who told me about this and I'll get back to you. But i am positive that at some point of time, they were back to back.
Another question, during this service, were the bride and groom clothed in the outfits for their wedding? Did they stand in front of the whole Church like they do for the wedding?
There isn't anything differnt when comparing to a wedding except the prayers and the hymns. Anyway it's not used anymore so.....
Was the "aqd el-emlak" Liturgy the day before the wedding, or the same day, etc. . . . Why was it called the 'Contract of Property'? (Where did they get that name from?)
The "Contract of Property" was basically a service to replace engagements since engagements were not there at the time. But it's different than engagement. How so? In the contract, the couples are married spiritually, legally, officially but not physically. Also there was no way you can break the contract. So that was so harsh for everyone to handle. So engagement replaced that contract of property so it would be a little easier to get married.
i found it...
here is the link of the meeting that the holy Synod had concerning the Rite of the Wedding on May, 29 1995
the link is here:
http://www.theholysynod.copticpope.org/aspect23.htm
but it's in arabic. and it says that Tee-shory is said not tai shory.