[quote author=Orthodox11 link=topic=5119.msg68965#msg68965 date=1174649432] [quote author=minagir link=topic=5119.msg68948#msg68948 date=1174590496] and since they apply to our church, as i said tons of times before, they don't need to be called Protestant songs anymore.
So if I get everyone at church to start a Bible study or prayer meeting by saying Surat al-Fatiha, which is not dogmatically incorrect as such, we no longer need to acknowledge it as the first chapter of the Qur'an because it now "applies to our church"?
hey, were talking about Christian Songs, nothing else. Not qur’an not abdel-halim nothing else.
Yep! VERY LAME!! Compared to Apenshois, and Vol Evol, and Agios Otheos.... its a very silly song that does not belong in our Church. Yet, many coptic christians like this stuff... the weird thing is that those that like it, are in fact very active in the Church. I mean, they're not like silly young kids who have nothing to do; they really give 100% of their lives to God.
again, if there is nothing wrong with the words, if doesn't countordict our rites and dogmos, there is nothing wrong with them.
its more than just the words..........i mean yes these songs shouldnt contradict our teaching but also what type of emotions arose from hearing these songs? like do ppl feel like dancing etc
yes ur rit with the words part but, am sure some people in our church would like. And I don’t think they would be that crazy for the dancing or whatever songs.
[quote author=minagir link=topic=5119.msg68948#msg68948 date=1174590496] and since they apply to our church, as i said tons of times before, they don't need to be called Protestant songs anymore.
what do you mean?
I mean what you listed below, just didn’t say in this reply:
Ok firstly there needs to be a clear distinction between the hymns song during liturgy and the ones song externally like during a youth meeting..there are some really nice ones like I place my soul, shine Jesus shine, Mary did you know and heaps more.but I don’t like the idea of hymns like above stated sung during church, that is converting the church from a unique and traditional church to a Anglican church for example (don’t jump on me, that’s the only thing that came to mind)……in saying that some churches sing these types while communion is happening and this is a English church……….and as many have sed…….there’s no point in singing a Coptic hymn or even Arabic if u don’t understand it or grasp the meaning of it.
So during church NO otherwise your moving away from the essence of the Coptic Church External events like youth meetings YES..i think its ok.
Thank you, that’s what I been saying all along.
[quote author=vassilios link=topic=5119.msg68977#msg68977 date=1174660498] My point being that ALL the songs they sing are lame. Very lame. You said that u thought it was only ONE song... no.. they are all silly. Look: "I can fly now on eagles wings" ... what is THAT? its all romantic stuff...
again, that’s only to you. some would like. If not, than why are they thinking about saying them?!!!!!!!!!
[quote author=Hos Erof link=topic=5119.msg68978#msg68978 date=1174662012] Perhaps the second sermon under the following link will give some clarification of why these protestant hymns aren't wrong per se, but liturgic worship simply is better ;D
I see your point: I shouldn't call them lame songs because, although for me they are lame, others may like them? Right?
Im not saying that those singing the songs are lame and silly - BUT IT SURE DOES LOOK THAT WAY!!
HAHAHAHHA
And that's not my opinion; its a known fact. Even the deacons think the songs are lame.
HAHA!!
[quote author=minagir link=topic=5119.msg68981#msg68981 date=1174666141] [quote author=Orthodox11 link=topic=5119.msg68965#msg68965 date=1174649432] [quote author=minagir link=topic=5119.msg68948#msg68948 date=1174590496] and since they apply to our church, as i said tons of times before, they don't need to be called Protestant songs anymore.
So if I get everyone at church to start a Bible study or prayer meeting by saying Surat al-Fatiha, which is not dogmatically incorrect as such, we no longer need to acknowledge it as the first chapter of the Qur'an because it now "applies to our church"?
hey, were talking about Christian Songs, nothing else. Not qur’an not abdel-halim nothing else.
Yep! VERY LAME!! Compared to Apenshois, and Vol Evol, and Agios Otheos.... its a very silly song that does not belong in our Church. Yet, many coptic christians like this stuff... the weird thing is that those that like it, are in fact very active in the Church. I mean, they're not like silly young kids who have nothing to do; they really give 100% of their lives to God.
again, if there is nothing wrong with the words, if doesn't countordict our rites and dogmos, there is nothing wrong with them.
its more than just the words..........i mean yes these songs shouldnt contradict our teaching but also what type of emotions arose from hearing these songs? like do ppl feel like dancing etc
yes ur rit with the words part but, am sure some people in our church would like. And I don’t think they would be that crazy for the dancing or whatever songs.
[quote author=minagir link=topic=5119.msg68948#msg68948 date=1174590496] and since they apply to our church, as i said tons of times before, they don't need to be called Protestant songs anymore.
what do you mean?
I mean what you listed below, just didn’t say in this reply:
Ok firstly there needs to be a clear distinction between the hymns song during liturgy and the ones song externally like during a youth meeting..there are some really nice ones like I place my soul, shine Jesus shine, Mary did you know and heaps more.but I don’t like the idea of hymns like above stated sung during church, that is converting the church from a unique and traditional church to a Anglican church for example (don’t jump on me, that’s the only thing that came to mind)……in saying that some churches sing these types while communion is happening and this is a English church……….and as many have sed…….there’s no point in singing a Coptic hymn or even Arabic if u don’t understand it or grasp the meaning of it.
So during church NO otherwise your moving away from the essence of the Coptic Church External events like youth meetings YES..i think its ok.
Thank you, that’s what I been saying all along.
[quote author=vassilios link=topic=5119.msg68977#msg68977 date=1174660498] My point being that ALL the songs they sing are lame. Very lame. You said that u thought it was only ONE song... no.. they are all silly. Look: "I can fly now on eagles wings" ... what is THAT? its all romantic stuff...
again, that’s only to you. some would like. If not, than why are they thinking about saying them?!!!!!!!!!
[quote author=Hos Erof link=topic=5119.msg68978#msg68978 date=1174662012] Perhaps the second sermon under the following link will give some clarification of why these protestant hymns aren't wrong per se, but liturgic worship simply is better ;D
I see your point: I shouldn't call them lame songs because, although for me they are lame, others may like them? Right?
Im not saying that those singing the songs are lame and silly - BUT IT SURE DOES LOOK THAT WAY!!
HAHAHAHHA
And that's not my opinion; its a known fact. Even the deacons think the songs are lame.
HAHA!!
ok. you know what i really don't care. i proved my point and that's it. because really, being silly as you are right not is not taken anyone anywhere. and please, haha all you want. and of course deacons wont like it. most deacons like hymn batter than songs in general.
ok. you know what i really don't care. i proved my point and that's it. because really, being silly as you are right not is not taken anyone anywhere. and please, haha all you want. and of course deacons wont like it. most deacons like hymn batter than songs in general.
Now, that was really poor english. I didn't understand it. All i understood from that was that I can hahaha all i want. OK. HA HA.
But americans talk that way, don't they: "I ain't not don't got a car". They are all into double negatives; even the name Mina is a negative in the USA and Canada : they pronounce it as Minus.
[quote author=vassilios link=topic=5119.msg68987#msg68987 date=1174670486] the name Mina is a negative in the USA and Canada : they pronounce it as Minus.
hhhmmmm who lied to you about that.
also americans can talk in anyway they want. you are....why not them to
OK Mina, that's another topic. Let's conclude this topic:
Songs are OK to be sung: Protestant songs are OK too - but they can be sung anywhere except the coptic church.
Singing them in the coptic church is a slap in the face to the coptic fathers who created for us the tasbeha, the agpeya, the coptic hymns... the coptic songs....
[quote author=vassilios link=topic=5119.msg68989#msg68989 date=1174674244] OK Mina, that's another topic. Let's conclude this topic:
Songs are OK to be sung: Protestant songs are OK too - but they can be sung anywhere except the coptic church.
Singing them in the coptic church is a slap in the face to the coptic fathers who created for us the tasbeha, the agpeya, the coptic hymns... the coptic songs....
[quote author=Κηφᾶς link=topic=5119.msg68979#msg68979 date=1174662851] Awwwwww Matt, way to ruin such an inane argument. ;)
and your contribution was just so worthwhile
[quote author=vassilios link=topic=5119.msg68989#msg68989 date=1174674244] Songs are OK to be sung: Protestant songs are OK too - but they can be sung anywhere except the coptic church.
Singing them in the coptic church is a slap in the face to the coptic fathers who created for us the tasbeha, the agpeya, the coptic hymns... the coptic songs....
ok let me just clarify............are you telling us that your COPTIC ORTHODOX church sings protestant hymns DURING the holy liturgy...........well with all due respect but your congregation is wacked
I agree with your point here that essentially protestant hymns are based on love but not all. Protestantism, generally, doesn't deny that repentance is essential, but they focus more on "loving God". That whatever your sins, God loves you. WHich is a bit dangerous, because they've reached the point where adultary is no longer a sin, because if God loves you, There are some protestant songs however, that are quite "deep". Deep in the sense that its not a weak emotional communication between us and God, its full of praise. But it depends on which songs.
Lastly….what about for Sunday school and church choirs (children) do you expect them to learn Coptic hymns? which contradicts what you sed b4 about there’s no point in singing a hymn if you don’t understand it………..most children’s first language is English and so we teach them English hymns (protestant hymns)
[quote author=kerestina link=topic=5119.msg69004#msg69004 date=1174739856] Lastly….what about for Sunday school and church choirs (children) do you expect them to learn Coptic hymns? which contradicts what you sed b4 about there’s no point in singing a hymn if you don’t understand it………..most children’s first language is English and so we teach them English hymns (protestant hymns)
What's preventing Coptic hymns from being translated into English? I don't believe the Protestant churches have a monopoly on the English language.
[quote author=Orthodox11 link=topic=5119.msg69007#msg69007 date=1174741676] What's preventing Coptic hymns from being translated into English? I don't believe the Protestant churches have a monopoly on the English language.
true but i guess my question is whats wrong with using these hymsn external to the church litrugy
plus ive never seen a book with just coptic hymns..........majority of hymns in hymns book are protestant
[quote author=vassilios link=topic=5119.msg68933#msg68933 date=1174578319] All i can say is this: If these people say / pray such nonsense, and are so close to God, then prayer must be a very easy thing. Yet, why do i find it so hard in that case??
First of all, no one has the authority to judge whether these songs are "silly" or "lame."
Second of all, NO ONE is perfect. Why do you think God, in the form of human, came for us? :);)
In my opinion, ALL faith denominations have right AND wrong aspects to it. There is no reason for everyone to be so against another church, in this case the Protestant church. What have they done to you? I don't think they've harmed you or even your family in anyway. So don't be soo narrow-minded. I am not going against Copts and neither am I for Protestants. Because what matters the most is YOUR relationship with God. Everyone has their own way of praising God. And if thats the way that they (the Protestants) keep their spiritual/faith life going, then you should respect that. So all I am saying is to focus on your own relationship and don't focus on how other people's relationship with God is.
[quote author=Godly_livin link=topic=5119.msg69011#msg69011 date=1174750232] In my opinion, ALL faith denominations have right AND wrong aspects to it.
Not true; at least not with respect to doctrine. The faith of the Orthodox (correct-believing) Church is without error.
There is no reason for everyone to be so against another church, in this case the Protestant church.
There is no such thing as the Protestant Church.
What have they done to you? I don't think they've harmed you or even your family in anyway. So don't be soo narrow-minded.
Its not a question of whether Protestants have done anything wrong, or whether or not they are good people. Its a question of them holding to an incorrect (and therefore harmful) understanding of God and whether it is appropriate for songs coming from such people to be used by Orthodox believers.
[quote author=kerestina link=topic=5119.msg69008#msg69008 date=1174742224] true but i guess my question is whats wrong with using these hymsn external to the church litrugy
I think one potential danger is that the line between Orthodoxy and heterodoxy becomes blurred. By encorporating practices taken from outside the boundaries of the Church of Christ into your spiritual life, it easy leads (and I've seen this many times) to an attitude of "as long as its Christian its ok."
What people fail to realise is that Orthodoxy=Christianity and Christianity=Orthodoxy. Anything which is not Orthodox is not Christian, anything which is not Christian is not Orthodox.
Protestants and Catholics are only Christians in so far as they are in agreement with the Orthodox. Where they differ from us, they differ from Christianity.
plus ive never seen a book with just coptic hymns..........majority of hymns in hymns book are protestant
The fact that hymn books used in Orthodox churches are mainly Protestant is an indicator of the scale of the problem in my opinion. Its not an excuse for the status quo, it should be a motivator for a new hymn book without Protestant hymns.
[quote author=Orthodox11 link=topic=5119.msg69012#msg69012 date=1174750857] [quote author=Godly_livin link=topic=5119.msg69011#msg69011 date=1174750232] In my opinion, ALL faith denominations have right AND wrong aspects to it.
Not true; at least not with respect to doctrine. The faith of the Orthodox (correct-believing) Church is without error.
If Orthodoxy is "without error", then why are we not so accepting of other people if that is the case? Aren't we followers of Christ? Jesus' whole ministry included accepting others no matter what...so??
There is no reason for everyone to be so against another church, in this case the Protestant church.
There is no such thing as the Protestant Church.
What do you mean by this? What was the whole thing about the Protestant Reformation??
What have they done to you? I don't think they've harmed you or even your family in anyway. So don't be soo narrow-minded.
Its not a question of whether Protestants have done anything wrong, or whether or not they are good people. Its a question of them holding to an incorrect (and therefore harmful) understanding of God and whether it is appropriate for songs coming from such people to be used by Orthodox believers.
Their understanding of God is between them and God..but how has that affected your life? I still don't think it can cause a dilemna in an Orthodox believer's life if they refuse to believe in their teachings.
[quote author=kerestina link=topic=5119.msg69004#msg69004 date=1174739856] and your contribution was just so worthwhile
My my, aren't we touchy. If you didn't like my comment, you could have simply just ignored it.
Their understanding of God is between them and God
I've never liked this answer for the simple reason that where does that leave the Church in all of this? The Church is what Christ set up so that we could 'understand God' and it is through the Church that He reveals Himself to us.
I suggest that we keep our Coptic "spiritual" culture: our tasbeha, songs etc..
At the same time, its pointless singing stuff you don't understand - so what's the answer?? TO UNDERSTAND IT!
Now, in the process of understanding it and actually having understood it , i suggest we sing it in a language we do understand, but NOT to replace it with Protestant songs!! AT ALL!!!!!!
What happened is this: because we've allowed protestant songs IN the church, what has resulted is that the kids come, sing their protestant songs and leave... they don't stay for ANYTHING coptic (tasbeha.. etc).. its awful.
[quote author=kerestina link=topic=5119.msg69004#msg69004 date=1174739856] [quote author=Κηφᾶς link=topic=5119.msg68979#msg68979 date=1174662851] Awwwwww Matt, way to ruin such an inane argument. ;)
and your contribution was just so worthwhile
[quote author=vassilios link=topic=5119.msg68989#msg68989 date=1174674244] Songs are OK to be sung: Protestant songs are OK too - but they can be sung anywhere except the coptic church.
Singing them in the coptic church is a slap in the face to the coptic fathers who created for us the tasbeha, the agpeya, the coptic hymns... the coptic songs....
ok let me just clarify............are you telling us that your COPTIC ORTHODOX church sings protestant hymns DURING the holy liturgy...........well with all due respect but your congregation is wacked
I agree with your point here that essentially protestant hymns are based on love but not all. Protestantism, generally, doesn't deny that repentance is essential, but they focus more on "loving God". That whatever your sins, God loves you. WHich is a bit dangerous, because they've reached the point where adultary is no longer a sin, because if God loves you, There are some protestant songs however, that are quite "deep". Deep in the sense that its not a weak emotional communication between us and God, its full of praise. But it depends on which songs.
Lastly….what about for Sunday school and church choirs (children) do you expect them to learn Coptic hymns? which contradicts what you sed b4 about there’s no point in singing a hymn if you don’t understand it………..most children’s first language is English and so we teach them English hymns (protestant hymns)
[quote author=Κηφᾶς link=topic=5119.msg68979#msg68979 date=1174662851] [coptic]+ Iryny nem `hmot>[/coptic]
Awwwwww Matt, way to ruin such an inane argument. ;)
whatever, love you too :P
i wrote this whole piece about protestant songs, but i changed my mind, i dont want to participate in this whole "protestant songs are bad" discussion, i find it rather pointless. We should focus on the solution, and the solution is simply to stop singing protestant songs during communion and substitute them by coptic hymns/songs/madaye7. There's enough famous and knowns songs. If people dont know them, teach them (and start with the kids in sunday school).
Amen Hos Erof! Totally agree. Like i said, keep the Coptic Church Coptic. I have CD's (and purchased CD's of protestant songs). They are awesome in French. But i wouldn't dare (!!) replace them with anything we have in our Church.
Awwwwww Matt, way to ruin such an inane argument. ;)
whatever, love you too :P
i wrote this whole piece about protestant songs, but i changed my mind, i dont want to participate in this whole "protestant songs are bad" discussion, i find it rather pointless. We should focus on the solution, and the solution is simply to stop singing protestant songs during communion and substitute them by coptic hymns/songs/madaye7. There's enough famous and knowns songs. If people dont know them, teach them (and start with the kids in sunday school).
Comments
[quote author=minagir link=topic=5119.msg68948#msg68948 date=1174590496]
and since they apply to our church, as i said tons of times before, they don't need to be called Protestant songs anymore.
So if I get everyone at church to start a Bible study or prayer meeting by saying Surat al-Fatiha, which is not dogmatically incorrect as such, we no longer need to acknowledge it as the first chapter of the Qur'an because it now "applies to our church"?
hey, were talking about Christian Songs, nothing else. Not qur’an not abdel-halim nothing else.
[quote author=kerestina link=topic=5119.msg68971#msg68971 date=1174655840]
[quote author=minagir link=topic=5119.msg68941#msg68941 date=1174586446] again, if there is nothing wrong with the words, if doesn't countordict our rites and dogmos, there is nothing wrong with them.
its more than just the words..........i mean yes these songs shouldnt contradict our teaching but also what type of emotions arose from hearing these songs? like do ppl feel like dancing etc
yes ur rit with the words part but, am sure some people in our church would like. And I don’t think they would be that crazy for the dancing or whatever songs. what do you mean?
I mean what you listed below, just didn’t say in this reply: Thank you, that’s what I been saying all along.
[quote author=vassilios link=topic=5119.msg68977#msg68977 date=1174660498]
My point being that ALL the songs they sing are lame. Very lame.
You said that u thought it was only ONE song... no.. they are all silly.
Look: "I can fly now on eagles wings" ... what is THAT?
its all romantic stuff...
again, that’s only to you. some would like. If not, than why are they thinking about saying them?!!!!!!!!!
[quote author=Hos Erof link=topic=5119.msg68978#msg68978 date=1174662012]
Perhaps the second sermon under the following link will give some clarification of why these protestant hymns aren't wrong per se, but liturgic worship simply is better ;D
http://www.orthodoxsermons.org/index.php?option=com_docman&task=cat_view&gid=132&Itemid=26
great example.
[quote author=Κηφᾶς link=topic=5119.msg68979#msg68979 date=1174662851]
[coptic]+ Iryny nem `hmot>[/coptic]
Awwwwww Matt, way to ruin such an inane argument. ;)
lol, am sure we would of enjoyed this more since we just repeating urselfs.
I see your point: I shouldn't call them lame songs because, although for me they are lame, others may like them? Right?
Im not saying that those singing the songs are lame and silly - BUT IT SURE DOES LOOK THAT WAY!!
HAHAHAHHA
And that's not my opinion; its a known fact. Even the deacons think the songs are lame.
HAHA!!
[quote author=minagir link=topic=5119.msg68981#msg68981 date=1174666141]
[quote author=Orthodox11 link=topic=5119.msg68965#msg68965 date=1174649432]
[quote author=minagir link=topic=5119.msg68948#msg68948 date=1174590496]
and since they apply to our church, as i said tons of times before, they don't need to be called Protestant songs anymore.
So if I get everyone at church to start a Bible study or prayer meeting by saying Surat al-Fatiha, which is not dogmatically incorrect as such, we no longer need to acknowledge it as the first chapter of the Qur'an because it now "applies to our church"?
hey, were talking about Christian Songs, nothing else. Not qur’an not abdel-halim nothing else.
[quote author=kerestina link=topic=5119.msg68971#msg68971 date=1174655840]
[quote author=minagir link=topic=5119.msg68941#msg68941 date=1174586446] again, if there is nothing wrong with the words, if doesn't countordict our rites and dogmos, there is nothing wrong with them.
its more than just the words..........i mean yes these songs shouldnt contradict our teaching but also what type of emotions arose from hearing these songs? like do ppl feel like dancing etc
yes ur rit with the words part but, am sure some people in our church would like. And I don’t think they would be that crazy for the dancing or whatever songs. what do you mean?
I mean what you listed below, just didn’t say in this reply: Thank you, that’s what I been saying all along.
[quote author=vassilios link=topic=5119.msg68977#msg68977 date=1174660498]
My point being that ALL the songs they sing are lame. Very lame.
You said that u thought it was only ONE song... no.. they are all silly.
Look: "I can fly now on eagles wings" ... what is THAT?
its all romantic stuff...
again, that’s only to you. some would like. If not, than why are they thinking about saying them?!!!!!!!!!
[quote author=Hos Erof link=topic=5119.msg68978#msg68978 date=1174662012]
Perhaps the second sermon under the following link will give some clarification of why these protestant hymns aren't wrong per se, but liturgic worship simply is better ;D
http://www.orthodoxsermons.org/index.php?option=com_docman&task=cat_view&gid=132&Itemid=26
great example.
[quote author=Κηφᾶς link=topic=5119.msg68979#msg68979 date=1174662851]
[coptic]+ Iryny nem `hmot>[/coptic]
Awwwwww Matt, way to ruin such an inane argument. ;)
lol, am sure we would of enjoyed this more since we just repeating urselfs.
Mina,
I see your point: I shouldn't call them lame songs because, although for me they are lame, others may like them? Right?
Im not saying that those singing the songs are lame and silly - BUT IT SURE DOES LOOK THAT WAY!!
HAHAHAHHA
And that's not my opinion; its a known fact. Even the deacons think the songs are lame.
HAHA!!
ok. you know what i really don't care. i proved my point and that's it. because really, being silly as you are right not is not taken anyone anywhere. and please, haha all you want.
and of course deacons wont like it. most deacons like hymn batter than songs in general.
This is what you said:
ok. you know what i really don't care. i proved my point and that's it. because really, being silly as you are right not is not taken anyone anywhere. and please, haha all you want.
and of course deacons wont like it. most deacons like hymn batter than songs in general.
Now, that was really poor english. I didn't understand it. All i understood from that was that I can hahaha all i want. OK. HA HA.
But americans talk that way, don't they: "I ain't not don't got a car". They are all into double negatives; even the name Mina is a negative in the USA and Canada : they pronounce it as Minus.
the name Mina is a negative in the USA and Canada : they pronounce it as Minus.
hhhmmmm who lied to you about that.
also americans can talk in anyway they want. you are....why not them to
Let's conclude this topic:
Songs are OK to be sung:
Protestant songs are OK too - but they can be sung anywhere except the coptic church.
Singing them in the coptic church is a slap in the face to the coptic fathers who created for us the tasbeha, the agpeya, the coptic hymns... the coptic songs....
OK Mina, that's another topic.
Let's conclude this topic:
Songs are OK to be sung:
Protestant songs are OK too - but they can be sung anywhere except the coptic church.
Singing them in the coptic church is a slap in the face to the coptic fathers who created for us the tasbeha, the agpeya, the coptic hymns... the coptic songs....
that's your own clusion thoo!!!!
Awwwwww Matt, way to ruin such an inane argument. ;)
and your contribution was just so worthwhile
[quote author=vassilios link=topic=5119.msg68989#msg68989 date=1174674244]
Songs are OK to be sung:
Protestant songs are OK too - but they can be sung anywhere except the coptic church.
Singing them in the coptic church is a slap in the face to the coptic fathers who created for us the tasbeha, the agpeya, the coptic hymns... the coptic songs....
ok let me just clarify............are you telling us that your COPTIC ORTHODOX church sings protestant hymns DURING the holy liturgy...........well with all due respect but your congregation is wacked
I agree with your point here that essentially protestant hymns are based on love but not all.
Protestantism, generally, doesn't deny that repentance is essential, but they focus more on "loving God". That whatever your sins, God loves you. WHich is a bit dangerous, because they've reached the point where adultary is no longer a sin, because if God loves you,
There are some protestant songs however, that are quite "deep". Deep in the sense that its not a weak emotional communication between us and God, its full of praise. But it depends on which songs.
Lastly….what about for Sunday school and church choirs (children) do you expect them to learn Coptic hymns? which contradicts what you sed b4 about there’s no point in singing a hymn if you don’t understand it………..most children’s first language is English and so we teach them English hymns (protestant hymns)
Lastly….what about for Sunday school and church choirs (children) do you expect them to learn Coptic hymns? which contradicts what you sed b4 about there’s no point in singing a hymn if you don’t understand it………..most children’s first language is English and so we teach them English hymns (protestant hymns)
What's preventing Coptic hymns from being translated into English? I don't believe the Protestant churches have a monopoly on the English language.
What's preventing Coptic hymns from being translated into English? I don't believe the Protestant churches have a monopoly on the English language.
true but i guess my question is whats wrong with using these hymsn external to the church litrugy
plus ive never seen a book with just coptic hymns..........majority of hymns in hymns book are protestant
All i can say is this: If these people say / pray such nonsense, and are so close to God, then prayer must be a very easy thing. Yet, why do i find it so hard in that case??
First of all, no one has the authority to judge whether these songs are "silly" or "lame."
Second of all, NO ONE is perfect. Why do you think God, in the form of human, came for us? :) ;)
In my opinion, ALL faith denominations have right AND wrong aspects to it. There is no reason for everyone to be so against another church, in this case the Protestant church. What have they done to you? I don't think they've harmed you or even your family in anyway. So don't be soo narrow-minded. I am not going against Copts and neither am I for Protestants. Because what matters the most is YOUR relationship with God. Everyone has their own way of praising God. And if thats the way that they (the Protestants) keep their spiritual/faith life going, then you should respect that. So all I am saying is to focus on your own relationship and don't focus on how other people's relationship with God is.
In my opinion, ALL faith denominations have right AND wrong aspects to it.
Not true; at least not with respect to doctrine. The faith of the Orthodox (correct-believing) Church is without error. There is no such thing as the Protestant Church. Its not a question of whether Protestants have done anything wrong, or whether or not they are good people. Its a question of them holding to an incorrect (and therefore harmful) understanding of God and whether it is appropriate for songs coming from such people to be used by Orthodox believers.
true but i guess my question is whats wrong with using these hymsn external to the church litrugy
I think one potential danger is that the line between Orthodoxy and heterodoxy becomes blurred. By encorporating practices taken from outside the boundaries of the Church of Christ into your spiritual life, it easy leads (and I've seen this many times) to an attitude of "as long as its Christian its ok."
What people fail to realise is that Orthodoxy=Christianity and Christianity=Orthodoxy. Anything which is not Orthodox is not Christian, anything which is not Christian is not Orthodox.
Protestants and Catholics are only Christians in so far as they are in agreement with the Orthodox. Where they differ from us, they differ from Christianity. The fact that hymn books used in Orthodox churches are mainly Protestant is an indicator of the scale of the problem in my opinion. Its not an excuse for the status quo, it should be a motivator for a new hymn book without Protestant hymns.
[quote author=Godly_livin link=topic=5119.msg69011#msg69011 date=1174750232]
In my opinion, ALL faith denominations have right AND wrong aspects to it.
Not true; at least not with respect to doctrine. The faith of the Orthodox (correct-believing) Church is without error.
If Orthodoxy is "without error", then why are we not so accepting of other people if that is the case? Aren't we followers of Christ? Jesus' whole ministry included accepting others no matter what...so?? There is no such thing as the Protestant Church.
What do you mean by this? What was the whole thing about the Protestant Reformation?? Its not a question of whether Protestants have done anything wrong, or whether or not they are good people. Its a question of them holding to an incorrect (and therefore harmful) understanding of God and whether it is appropriate for songs coming from such people to be used by Orthodox believers.
Their understanding of God is between them and God..but how has that affected your life? I still don't think it can cause a dilemna in an Orthodox believer's life if they refuse to believe in their teachings.
[quote author=kerestina link=topic=5119.msg69004#msg69004 date=1174739856]
and your contribution was just so worthwhile
My my, aren't we touchy. If you didn't like my comment, you could have simply just ignored it. I've never liked this answer for the simple reason that where does that leave the Church in all of this? The Church is what Christ set up so that we could 'understand God' and it is through the Church that He reveals Himself to us.
Please pray for me.
I suggest that we keep our Coptic "spiritual" culture: our tasbeha, songs etc..
At the same time, its pointless singing stuff you don't understand - so what's the answer?? TO UNDERSTAND IT!
Now, in the process of understanding it and actually having understood it , i suggest we sing it in a language we do understand, but NOT to replace it with Protestant songs!! AT ALL!!!!!!
What happened is this: because we've allowed protestant songs IN the church, what has resulted is that the kids come, sing their protestant songs and leave... they don't stay for ANYTHING coptic (tasbeha.. etc).. its awful.
[quote author=kerestina link=topic=5119.msg69004#msg69004 date=1174739856]
[quote author=Κηφᾶς link=topic=5119.msg68979#msg68979 date=1174662851]
Awwwwww Matt, way to ruin such an inane argument. ;)
and your contribution was just so worthwhile
[quote author=vassilios link=topic=5119.msg68989#msg68989 date=1174674244]
Songs are OK to be sung:
Protestant songs are OK too - but they can be sung anywhere except the coptic church.
Singing them in the coptic church is a slap in the face to the coptic fathers who created for us the tasbeha, the agpeya, the coptic hymns... the coptic songs....
ok let me just clarify............are you telling us that your COPTIC ORTHODOX church sings protestant hymns DURING the holy liturgy...........well with all due respect but your congregation is wacked
I agree with your point here that essentially protestant hymns are based on love but not all.
Protestantism, generally, doesn't deny that repentance is essential, but they focus more on "loving God". That whatever your sins, God loves you. WHich is a bit dangerous, because they've reached the point where adultary is no longer a sin, because if God loves you,
There are some protestant songs however, that are quite "deep". Deep in the sense that its not a weak emotional communication between us and God, its full of praise. But it depends on which songs.
Lastly….what about for Sunday school and church choirs (children) do you expect them to learn Coptic hymns? which contradicts what you sed b4 about there’s no point in singing a hymn if you don’t understand it………..most children’s first language is English and so we teach them English hymns (protestant hymns)
[coptic]+ Iryny nem `hmot>[/coptic]
Awwwwww Matt, way to ruin such an inane argument. ;)
whatever, love you too :P
i wrote this whole piece about protestant songs, but i changed my mind, i dont want to participate in this whole "protestant songs are bad" discussion, i find it rather pointless. We should focus on the solution, and the solution is simply to stop singing protestant songs during communion and substitute them by coptic hymns/songs/madaye7. There's enough famous and knowns songs. If people dont know them, teach them (and start with the kids in sunday school).
amen 8)
Totally agree.
Like i said, keep the Coptic Church Coptic. I have CD's (and purchased CD's of protestant songs). They are awesome in French. But i wouldn't dare (!!) replace them with anything we have in our Church.
[quote author=Hos Erof link=topic=5119.msg69024#msg69024 date=1174777426]
[quote author=Κηφᾶς link=topic=5119.msg68979#msg68979 date=1174662851]
[coptic]+ Iryny nem `hmot>[/coptic]
Awwwwww Matt, way to ruin such an inane argument. ;)
whatever, love you too :P
i wrote this whole piece about protestant songs, but i changed my mind, i dont want to participate in this whole "protestant songs are bad" discussion, i find it rather pointless. We should focus on the solution, and the solution is simply to stop singing protestant songs during communion and substitute them by coptic hymns/songs/madaye7. There's enough famous and knowns songs. If people dont know them, teach them (and start with the kids in sunday school).
amen 8)