Hey everyone,
This question came to my mind as I was reading Hebrews 2:16, which says,
"For indeed He does not give aid to angels, but He does give aid to the seed of Abraham." -Hebrews 2:16
So I was thinking, why didn't Jesus save the angels like He saved humans. Humans fell from paradise as a result of sin, but God, through His love, wanted to save us from eternal damnation, and so He was raised on the cross to save us from our sins. Why didn't God show this love towards the angels He created when they fell from paradise as a result of sin? Does God love us that much more than His angels, or is it something more than that?
Thanks
Comments
God Bless and Pray for me and my weakness
and why did he allow him to tempt Adam and Eve?
We have to remember that the purpose of the Incarnation was to redeem mankind - that is why Our Lord was fully human and fully divine, so that he could, by assuming our nature, heal it. The angels are not human and so did not have the human nature which needed healing; at least that would be my understanding.
Lucifer, like mankind, was made with free will; like us, he could have chosen to do what was right and to worship the Lord God. In his insane pride he did not; how like so many of us. God loves us, as he loved Lucifer - and He shows that love through His Son's death and resurrection, and through all His dealings with us. He leaves us to choose what we will do. How sad that so many of us make the wrong choice - but that is why there is so much rejoicing in Heaven over every sinner who turns from his or her sin and repents and confesses that Jesus is Lord.
Hope that helps.
In Christ,
Anglian
That's a very interesting question, on which opinion is divided. There are some Fathers, such as Origen and St. Isaac the Syrian who hold that it is possible even for Satan to repent and to be saved; others hold the contrary view.
I cannot see why it should not be theoretically possible for even Satan to be saved - but of course he would have to swallow his pride and repent - and since that was why he fell, it would appear that he is condemning himself.
In Christ,
Anglian
I remember asking this same question (i.e. about whether Satan can repent or not) on another site and here is the response that I got: The thread goes on further and depending on where this leads, I may post snippets from it again.
An interesting idea, and I wouldn't mind knowing a little more about that line of thinking.
I am not sure why timelessness would, of itself, make repentance impossible, although I think I can see where the argument comes from. It would be good to know more.
In Christ,
John
Satan fell by his own free will while he was a great archangel enjoying the status of living the best graces a creature can possibly be given. Power, control and light the Lord gave him. He fell willingly, nobody deceived him.
He wanted more and gathered an army to fight God Himself thinking he would be victorious over the Almighty if he could subdue His righteous Angels. He cast himself out of the Lord's grace and even then he continued in his evil ways. He knew clearly what he was doing and had the insane thought that being evil would make him more powerful than God (!). He still acts the same and continuously fights the Lord's righteous ways. Did you ever hear he really tried to repent? Don't believe it if some one says so (or that God denied him that): it is a known trick of the devil.
If a known criminal lets us believe he repented then you discover he is doing all the time worse and worser things would we trust him? As a human being this criminal may still repent later. Satan does not want to repent so that it is also too late for him.
From this trusted CO site I found a concise and to-the-point answer:
http://www.suscopts.org/q&a/index.php?qid=917&frommostrecent=yes GBU
where do u have all this informations?
p4m
Isaiah 14:12 The Fall of Lucifer
12 “ How you are fallen from heaven,
O Lucifer, son of the morning!
How you are cut down to the ground,
You who weakened the nations!
13 For you have said in your heart:
‘ I will ascend into heaven,
I will exalt my throne above the stars of God;
I will also sit on the mount of the congregation
On the farthest sides of the north;
14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds,
I will be like the Most High.’
15 Yet you shall be brought down to Sheol,
To the lowest depths of the Pit.
16 “ Those who see you will gaze at you,
And consider you, saying:
‘ Is this the man who made the earth tremble,
Who shook kingdoms, ...
Of course, to God, everything is possible, and that is why Fathers like Origen and St. Isaac did not rule out the possibility that even Satan could repent.
In Christ,
John
That is what I actually meant: satan could have repented but he did not want to. One notion is important to remember: angels are much faster than us, so are their thoughts (which are different in essence than ours). In a minute time I expect an angel would think what a man would have thought during many hours. If satan could repent, he simply did not want to and God knows it.
In Revelation there is this feared situation of people who will not be able to repent while still alive, some would have if they could escape. It is written they will submit to the devil who will secure their fall, no possibility for actual repentance then: no turning back. They made themselves lose the opportunity. It is logical to assume that before his fall, "clever" satan clearly understood his fate (in case he "loses"), it can be deduced he asked for his doom. Can God be blamed?
Hey everyone,
This question came to my mind as I was reading Hebrews 2:16, which says,
"For indeed He does not give aid to angels, but He does give aid to the seed of Abraham." -Hebrews 2:16
So I was thinking, why didn't Jesus save the angels like He saved humans. Humans fell from paradise as a result of sin, but God, through His love, wanted to save us from eternal damnation, and so He was raised on the cross to save us from our sins. Why didn't God show this love towards the angels He created when they fell from paradise as a result of sin? Does God love us that much more than His angels, or is it something more than that?
Thanks
Humans were tempted by the devil. That is the reason we were able to be saved by Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. Angels on the other hand, and particularly Satan and his angels, tempted themselves which is why they cannot be saved. Not only did Satan fall, but one-third of the angels in Heaven fell. We must always remember "...the wages of sin is death..." (Romans 6:23). If satan had not tempted us, we would not have an excuse to be saved and would have ended up like the fallen angels.
If you observe God and His actions, you will notice that God always turns something that is meant for evil and uses it for good or turns it into something good. For example, the cross. Crucifixion at the time was the most pitiful, miserable torture a person could go through and was seen as the lowest sign of humiliation. All who bore the cross were seen as evildoers. Everything about the cross was evil. But God, in His supreme wisdom, turned the cross into something good, something life-changing. Our Lord died on the cross and turned the torturous symbol of the cross into a merciful, peaceful, life-giving one. The same thing goes for the devil. God lets the devil tempt us so that he can turn something that became bad (us) into a good thing. God uses all His resources for good and inevitably brings good out of everything he seeks to transform.
Remember...
"...ALL things work together for good to those who love God..." (Romans 8:28)
Please forgive me and pray for me,
Godhelpme3691
Some interesting and helpful points here - for which many thanks.
God gives us all free will; if we refuse to be saved, He can be sorrowful for that and for our loss, but He cannot save us against our will. This was so with Satan, who freely chose to reject what was offered and instead tried to seize what he wanted. What he got was damnation; that is what we get if we follow his example.
Godhelpme3691 was so right in saying that God uses even the worst things to teach us lessons - and Satan, the worst thing of all, teaches us this most important lesson of all. If we follow our own pride we die to Christ.
In Christ,
Anglian
Okay, about the notion of timelessness: One thing that has been repeated is that God is the only being who is 'timeless' or 'outside time'. I agree with this insofar as we say that God possesses these characteristics by nature. Anything that exists outside of the physical plane however, will also possess this trait, not so much by nature, but by the fact that such a being is in the presence (or in communion) with God. We, as human beings, have been created in the image and likeness of God, thus we possess attributes that God Himself also possesses. We have them, not by nature, but by virtue of the fact that God has given these attributes to us. Furthermore, the ultimate aim in Orthodoxy is full communion with God, aka theosis (or divinization). In other words, we are striving to become divine. We will never be divine by nature. However, it is something God has given us. We are by adoption what Christ is by nature. We don't seem to have a problem with that sort of notion, so why the issue of timelessness? It is also a characteristic we will get by virtue of the fact that we will no longer exist in this physical plane. Time is a physical construct and linear (there is a beginning and an end). This is not the case in either Heaven or Hell. Time ceases to have a function, a purpose, and thus ceases to be. When God spoke to Moses, He called Himself, 'I AM'. God simply is. There is no 'was' or 'will be' with God. Likewise, when we have shed this physical tent and been 'transformed', we too will simply be. It doesn't make sense to speak of 'yesterday i did this' or 'tomorrow i will do this' in eternity. Everything just is (i.e. it is the ever present, there is no future, there is no past). So, in the case of Satan, since he was in heaven, he existed in a timeless environment. Thus, his decision, it could be argued, is constant and cannot be changed, because change would require time and since there is no time, there is no change.
Let's think of it this way. Once final judgment has passed and we all (God willing) are in Heaven, in the presence of God, will it be possible to get out of Heaven? Will it be possible to sin? I would say no, it would not be possible because there is no way to change your decision. If time still existed, then there could be the possibility of deciding one day to sin. Why not? We are free beings afterall right?
Now, John_S2000, you have asked me for 'trusted reference(s)'. Well, the reality is there are none. We have entered into the realm of speculation and there are no concrete answers to these concepts. God has not chosen to reveal it, and so, my thoughts on this matter are as equally valid as anyone else's. Even when it comes to concept of whether Satan himself will be saved, there is no agreement, even among the Church Fathers. So, there are no credible or trusted references. All these are my own thoughts from my God given mind. If you are not comfortable with that, then perhaps you should avoid the topics that actually require you to speculate and not have concrete answers that have been already hammered out.
[coptic]+ Iryny nem `hmot>[/coptic]
Even when it comes to concept of whether Satan himself will be saved, there is no agreement, even among the Church Fathers.
Sorry Κηφᾶς, I'd just like to mention that Satan CANNOT be saved. It is a known fact in the Coptic Orthodox Church. As for people who say Origen supports this, Origen was excommunicated for this heresy by Pope Demetrius. The following is evidence.
Here is an excerpt from H.H. Pope Shenouda III's book: Many Years With People's Questions
Question:
I heard from some people that the devil may be saved!
They claimed that some fathers said this. Is this thought
right?
Answer:
The devil cannot be saved. There are even explicit texts in
the Holy Bible supporting our view. One of the most
important of these is in the Revelation, "And the devil, who
deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone
where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be
tormented day and night forever and ever." (Rev 20:10).
The text is clear that the devil will perish forever in the lake of
fire and brimstone. So, any proclamation that the devil will be
saved is a heresy against the biblical doctrine to which should
apply the words of St. Paul the Apostle, "But even if we, or
an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel to you than
what we have preached to you, let him be accursed" (Gal
1:8,9).
I hope this clears up some doubts in people's minds
Please remember me in your prayers
Guidance for the Young (and for myself, hopefully) Thank you for the good advice: I used to speculate even more than that! For me debating is not personal but I must assume some responsibility because words may have two edges. I wanted to share some information I had read that is all, though I do disagree on the idea of a "timeless environment" and no more change etc.
In Heavenly Jerusalem, our desire and hope with the Lord's Grace, there will be changes but only good ones, such as the increasing knowledge of God as time passes.
If we would suppose there is no notion of time there, we will not be able to fully appreciate eternity, as eternity must be associated with the situation of the fact, feeling and appreciation of really being continuously alive.
Otherwise, what would be the difference between living one more hour, one more century or even one more million years? Yes we like to feel free. God granted us our freedom to use it wisely but did man do that?
And do I have to conclude that freedom will invariably lead "one day to sin"?
Why not? Because the sons of God will wear their spotless heavenly bodies of light and the evil one who introduced sin in the universe will have no power over us or anything else any more.
I pray the Lord will allow us all to end up in His Grace.
GBU
Even though satan sinned without deception that does not seem to mean to me that there should be no possibility of repentance... it does mean though that his sin is greater.. don't we sometimes sin without deception? we know something is bad and we have full knowledge and we still want to sin.
Mike, satan cannot be saved because he fell into the sin of pride of his own accord. He had no one trying to convince him that through his pride he will succeed and become greater than God, HE TEMPTED HIMSELF. Which is why he has no hope of salvation.
As for what you said earlier about us knowing something is bad and we still do it, this is because satan has made us accustomed to sin. A young child does not know anything about sin and if he is not taught, he will not know how to do commit sin all the days of his life.
Please pray for me the weak and sinful
danny_iki,
Thank you for that. I hope I did not give the impression that I personally think that Satan can be saved. I don't. I'm just pointing out that other Church Fathers (not only Origen) had mentioned that Satan could be saved. Just one thing, regarding Origen's excommunication: If I recall correctly, it didn't have anything to do with his writings. It was more about him disobeying a command from his Patriarch regarding being ordained a priest (because he has made himself a eunuch, which was something the Church had forbidden).
John_S2000,
Thank you also for that post from Proverbs. I apologize if I came off as sounding harsh. I guess you and I are in disagreement about the 'timeless environment', which is fine. It is just a concept that makes sense to me, and that is how I perceive eternity to be. Regarding the possibility of sin: my thoughts are just this, if Satan did not require anyone or anything to be tempted, can we say we are above that? Is it not perfectly plausible for someone, in heaven, to willfully defy God out of their own volition? Just a thought.
When we are in heaven we will become completely pure beings, knowing no sin. Even if we tried we would not know how to commit sin. Christ will give us new glorified bodies that will be able to withstand His glory so that we will be better than we were in our original state, as it says in the gospel of St. Luke: "nor can they die anymore, for they are equal to the angels and are sons of God, being sons of the resurrection." (Luke 20:36) Can it be that the sons of God, being equal to the angels can commit sin willingly?
Sorry Κηφᾶς but I'm just finding it hard seeing everyone doubting about this subject. we should not trouble ourselves with such things but rather focus our attention on God our saviour who died for us.
Why God did not rescue the fallen angels is summed up vey nicely by St. Anthony the Great when he asked: "Lord, how is it that some die when they are young, while others drag on to extreme old age? Why are there those who are poor and those who are rich? Why do wicked men prosper and why are the just in need?" he then heard a voice answering him saying: "Anthony, keep your attention on yourself; these things are according to the judgement of God, and it is not to your advantage to know anything about them."
Since we have already eaten of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil, how exactly do you account for us being 'pure beings, knowing no sin'. Is the memory of sin going to be erased from our minds? I agree that we will be purified, and given new bodies of glory very similar to what Christ Himself had post-resurrection. However, how does that result in us not knowing sin. The only way I see that possible is that after we are transformed, all memory of sin is erased. That is a perfectly possible explanation, but then what of the fruit Adam and Eve ate to begin with (and it's resulting 'gift' of knowledge so to speak)? Will that be taken away from us? Again, it is perfectly possible, but it does make you wonder.
Regarding this question: I would have to say, yes. If angels, who were created far superior to us, and who stand in the presence of God, are able to commit sin willingly, then why can't we when we are in a similar state? Or, is it that, since this life is our test (just as the angels had their test and fell), once we have passed, there is no way to lapse and fall again?
I fail to see how asking these sorts of questions somehow detracts from one focusing on God? These questions all revolve around God, so by asking them, we are in fact focusing on Him. Or am I missing something?
You were saying about how we will know no sin, sin will die along with our earthly body. And as for the angels who willingly commited sin, the bible does not say that they were created in the image of God, however we were. The angels may have been capable of willingly commiting sin however we were not, before we ate of the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, we could not commit sin on our own.
Sorry about the misunderstanding, I was simply trying to say that some things, God does not want us to understand in great detail otherwise he would have explained this to us. God spoke about Satan's origin briefly but spent several chapters telling Moses how to construct the Ark of Covenant. It is obvious God wants us to focus more on worshipping him than on the fall of the angels. Please do not regard this as an invitation to stop discussing or researching this topic, after all I am simply dust, what do I know?
Sorry once again and forgive me if I have offended anyone.
Offended?! Far from it my friend. You have been most respectful in your posts and have raised some very interesting points. I apologize to you if I came off as sounding aggressive, that was not my intent at all. I was merely trying to further the discussion by raising some other questions.
Now, one thing you mention is that the Bible does not say that angels were created in the image of God. I guess my question to you would be, why would it? The purpose of the Bible (or at least one of the purposes), is to reveal the God's Plan of Salvation for mankind to mankind. Thus, any discussion about angels (outside of their role in either helping us achieve Salvation or hindering us from it) would not be of great importance. I disagree with the notion that angels were not created in the image of God simply because these are creatures who do possess free will and who do possess knowledge (attributes God Himself is the source of).
Another thing you said is that we could not commit sin on our own before we ate of the Tree. Again, I disagree because the moment Eve listened to (and believed the serpent), she sinned. And that was well before she ate of the tree. Now, you'll argue that it was the serpent that made her sin. However, she could have very easily not listened to the serpent and not eaten of the fruit. Thus, it was her choice (her will) to eat of the fruit. So, we can see the beginnings of our flaw even before we ate of the fruit.
Once again, you have not offended me at all bro. I just hope I wasn't too harsh in my own replies. If I was, I am terribly sorry.
if someone wants this disgusting post back I can put it back.. I am saving it in my computer to analyse it..