Guys,
I have a question. My priest recently did something soo wicked and dishonest to a friend of mine and myself. It was very cruel and hurtful. He didnt apologise NOR correct it.
I called him many times to make peace and tell him he hurt us, and he didnt answer his phone.
We went to the Church on Saturday to make peace with him, and he just walked out of the church, and never came back. He saw us, but walked out of the Church with some of his friends. My friend recently got baptised, and wanted to take communion so we thought it would be wise to clear the air between us before SUnday. He didnt come back Saturday evening, so we went SO EARLY to the Church on Sunday. I met him before the mass, and he said, shouting "YABNI!! I HAVE A MASS TO PRAY".
He didnt even give me a chance to say what I wanted. He just shouted. He knew he had offended us deeply. But did nothing.
Then i went into the alter to tell him that my friend would like to see him before he starts mass just so they can make peace together, but instead of listening to me, he took the microphone and shouted "YABNI, I HAVE A MASS TO PRAY" - this is when the deacons were getting dressed.
[YEAH... KNFOC, I HATE IT TOO WHEN PEOPLE SAY YABNI - i see what u mean.. i wanted to tell him :LOOK! Don't call me Yabni, and I won't call u abouna!! But i didnt. Its REALLY Mo7rega how he talks to us, and the word "yabni" when said like this, doesnt mean "my son" - its meaning changes into "my subordinate, or slave. Its strange how intonation can make a difference in how something means; as if he said ya Ebni, its better than YABNI"].
I couldnt believe that he was going to pray a mass and had offended others. I hated that.
My friend was crying and we left the Church together; i slammed the church door actually, but i was so mad. Anyway, but we came back later thanks to our God mother that convinced us that we should stay and have communion, and decided to have communion. I didnt have it because I was still a bit upset, but my friend did.
ANyway, after the mass, abouna was giving out the Orbanas. We went up to him and took some orbana. He didnt even look at us. He just gave us the orbana each and didnt SAY A WORD. If he was busy during the mass, then why not talk to us now???
ANyway, on seeing this, i was deeply offended, so i put the orbana he gave me BACK into the basket and left.
My questions are this:
* How can I have communion if im upset with him?
* I thought that you had to make peace with others before having communion??
He doesnt answer our emails, our voice calls etc.. and we have to call him from someone else's phone?
The main question is this: How on earth can a priest have communion himself RIGHT AFTER doing this?? I mean, this is so offensive. Its a scary. In fact, we're both scared of him now. Neither of us want to see him again, but unfortunately its the ONLY CHURCH that's reasonably close to us.
This is soooo sad, because i don't mind people not liking me, but we should all make peace before communion. We don't have to be "best friends". But he was sooo cruel to us. I have to admit, although what he did was not honest to us that made us mad in the beginning, what he did resulted in NOTHING. But his actions still in doing that have shocked me, and i wanted them to be addressed before we have communion. Perhaps this is why he's avoiding us?? He doesnt want to explain himself and he feels totally stupid himself about his actions? Im not sure. If he had just said "im sorry" , we'd be soo happy, and have treated him as if he'd done nothing....
We are talking about the Holy Spirit convicting your heart, but how on earth can the Spirit of Love, and Peace direct you to this???
I was mad because i think its mockery of this Holy Sacrement to partake of it KNOWING that you've upset someone, and when the chance to make peace with them is there, you refuse it.
Its strange.
What does everyone think??
Ps. KNFOC - whenever I said "yabni" before, it was actually mocking the way priests say it to us... and u are right, well done for pointing that out. I hate it too!!!! LOL (THANKS!)
Comments
Well, you've presented an interesting situation.. To be honest though, its hard to comment unless the initial "cruel and hurtful" action is explained a bit more. Though if you cant elaborate that's totally understandable..
Anyway, to your two chief questions.. In my humble opinion it seems wrong to partake in the holy communion if you are upset with the priest. It also seemy equally wrong (to me) for a priest to deliver the holy communion if he is also angry with members of his congregation. Also, its strange that a priest would try and avoid his own church members. In fact, its very disappointing.. Really, if you have done something wrong it is the priest's job to correct your behaviour and show you the right way. But the fact that the priest is actually trying to avoid you seems to indicate guilt on his behalf.
As for the second question. Well yeah, you should definitely make peace before partaking in the holy communion. Indeed, the bible says the sun should never set upon an argument.
Anyway, good luck with it all and keep us posted of what happens.
Rabana maak,
Matt
I am sorry that you are having such a hard time of it; this sounds horrible.
You were quite right not to partake of communion in the mood you were in; let us not judge the priest, his sins are irrelevant to the communion he gives, and he has others to think of, so he did what was right.
I wonder whether the mediums you are trying to use are the right ones? Might it not be better to put things down in a letter, where you can write in a more considered manner than most of use in e mails? You could lay out what your grievances are, you could say why you were upset, and you could ask for an opportunity to talk things through with him. Do you know any other members of the congregation well enough to ask them to have a word with the priest?
I can see now why you wanted the evaluation form!
In Christ,
John
Of course he should have tried to make peace with you. All I can guess is that he reconciled himself to giving communion to others because of the wider need to consider them; how, in so doing, he could not consider you and your friend is a thing that puzzles me.
But think about a letter. E mails and talking are instant communication, and do not always allow one to say in a considered manner all that one wishes to say; how often does emotion carry us alway in both media? A letter would allow to to set your thoughts out in a considered fashion. If he ignored that, then I fear there is no where to go with him. But do consider trying that. Not everyone is as easy with e mails as we are, and not everyine can cope with talking to people who are emotional. Yes, I know that as a priest he has a higher calling and should be above such things - but he is also human.
In Christ,
John
This Priest could hardly stop the mass and deprive the congregation of communion... I'm sure there have been times when priests upset people, their people too, and people are hardly perfect...
Anyway, the point is, you shoudn't spend your energy trying to find if this priest should've taken communion.. instead, try forgive him. You don't have to speak to him to work things out.. Just Forgive and Forget.
+God Bless.
It is indeed a sad situation. But for your own sake you have to find a way to forgive him - that is the hard road Our Lord set us on - the forgive those who spitefully use us. Sure isn't easy for any of us - but it is good for the soul.
There is obviously a lesson here for you both; you sound as though you are going to learn it - I pray that your priest does so.
In Christ,
John
Whilst this anger flames so brightly, you cannot forgive totally. I am not saying you are wrong. I don't know the details, but have immense respect for you and feel you wouldn't be this angry if you and your friend had not been very badly treated. That is one reason for laying it out in a letter to your priest; it gets it off your chest and into his hand. If he then does nothing, well he will have to answer for whatever is in his heart - as we all do. All you can do is to deal with your won anger and sorrow - and you know better than me how we do that - however hard.
But I do agree, it is shocking that a priest would not at least talk to you about whatever is wrong.
In Christ,
John
A very sad reminder to us all of how all humans err. How much we all stand in need of His redeeming love - and how unworthy we all are of it. What a good thing it is that He makes the judgements.
I am sad for you, because you should not have to carry this cross. I shall pray for you, my brother in Christ.
In Christ,
John
* Do not under any circumstance judge a priest or speak about one in a negative way nor attack him verbally/ physically. God never leaves an individual who attacks a priest in any way and punishment to the individual is the end result (regardless whether a priest is right or wrong). Let us not forget that a priest is the shepered and we are his sheep, it is not 4 us to judge his priesthood practice/communication but it is up to God to do that. If the priest wishes not to speak to you or your friend then do not approach him and repeatedly talk to him regarding the issue, but instead switch off any communication for the time being until further time. It is not urgent that you speak to him in order to go 2 his church, or 2 have communion (just go 2 ur FOC nd confess to him the case) and if you gain absolution den ur fine to have communion in the eyes of God. Finally, prayer on your part in asking God 2 resolve the issue is essential and may God bless you.
Don't worry.. this thread isnt about complaining about a priest.. my apologies if you thought this (perhaps its because we've all become close that I share personal information).
But this thread is about how do we have communion with a priest that has offended us and not said sorry.
Hizz Child was talking on the right path... what do u think?? do we NEED to get an apology?? If a person doesnt apologise what excuse can we give them? Perhaps they are born rude?? what??? Is this an acceptable excuse?? You tend to lose respect for someone if u give them an excuse for their sins that is totally ridiculous. Perhaps if i said to myself "Ohh ... come on.. perhaps its the way this priest speaks to his parents" - just saying or thinking this to myself creates a sense of disrespcet in my heart already.
Please 4give me 4 wat im about 2 say but it is how i feel:
* Do not under any circumstance judge a priest or speak about one in a negative way nor attack him verbally/ physically. God never leaves an individual who attacks a priest in any way and punishment to the individual is the end result (regardless whether a priest is right or wrong). Let us not forget that a priest is the shepered and we are his sheep, it is not 4 us to judge his priesthood practice/communication but it is up to God to do that. If the priest wishes not to speak to you or your friend then do not approach him and repeatedly talk to him regarding the issue, but instead switch off any communication for the time being until further time. It is not urgent that you speak to him in order to go 2 his church, or 2 have communion (just go 2 ur FOC nd confess to him the case) and if you gain absolution den ur fine to have communion in the eyes of God. Finally, prayer on your part in asking God 2 resolve the issue is essential and may God bless you.
Well.. that priest was my FoC, and my friend's FoC! He was our spiritual father too.
Your suggestion is positive. I like that: that we don't HAVE to talk to him to have communion. We don't want to talk to him NOR see him. In fact, my friend that he recently baptised is scared to go back into the Church to just see him!! I am too.
Is this an environment that a priest should create??
Its strange that you think we are judging him!? Im not in the slightest.. my question is clear on this issue:
How do we come to terms with having communion with a priest that has OFFENDED US and not apologised for it?
Its a strange thing what you say. If i saw a priest raping a woman and looked carefully, should I say to myself "well.. don't judge.. perhaps he's lost his car keys?" - or should i make a judgement and say "oh dear.. i should perhaps intervene ?"
I don't believe in condemning anyone.. but i need to know how to come to terms with having communion with a priest that has done something VERY bad and has not apologised for it!!!!!??????
No, I don't think you are judging him; but I know that it is disturbing you and preventing you from having a quiet mind - and that is something no priest should be doing.
But remember, it is the Body and Blood of Our Lord you receive, however unworthy the priest - and it is because that is what feeds you that you will either have to find another Church, which is obviously not possible, or receive communion from one who angers you. Now, because you rightly do not want to receive communion in that state, that is why you have to find a way of dealing with your anger.
That was why I thought that putting it on paper and sending it to him might help; it would, as it were, begin the process of transferring it. But please do not think I think you judge him, or anyone; you have been badly wronged - and only the comfort Our Lord brings can really help - and it is for that I pray.
In Christ,,
John
For the communion part, every single person is responsable for what he does or did. communion is a holy practice that only the holy receive it. nd if they don't deserve it, they will be burned by it's fiery divity.
[quote author=vassilios link=topic=5382.msg71625#msg71625 date=1180616967]
[quote author=Hizz_chiilld link=topic=5382.msg71623#msg71623 date=1180615512]
.. instead, try forgive him. You don't have to speak to him to work things out.. Just Forgive and Forget.
+God Bless.
Could u elaborate on that?
Forgive....that's it. just forgive. from you're side and let the other carry the responsiblity on himself. u don't have to forget but the least u can do is forgive.
[quote author=vassilios link=topic=5382.msg71648#msg71648 date=1180626949]
But this thread is about how do we have communion with a priest that has offended us and not said sorry. it's his burden to carry if he made a mistake. it's not urs or any one else.
[quote author=Silent.Monk link=topic=5382.msg71647#msg71647 date=1180626887]
* Do not under any circumstance judge a priest or speak about one in a negative way nor attack him verbally/ physically. God never leaves an individual who attacks a priest in any way and punishment to the individual is the end result (regardless whether a priest is right or wrong).
i strongly agree with you....but there is a limit for everything and everyone. am not saying you should go and disrespect the priest. at that limit, the priest will find out that he did a mistake and that way he'll lose a lamb that he'll be judged upon at the end of times. i tihnk that goes more with the evalution idea that vassilios was talking about.
[quote author=vassilios link=topic=5382.msg71649#msg71649 date=1180627280]
Well.. that priest was my FoC, and my friend's FoC! He was our spiritual father too.
i guess thats very serious than. am sure he have his own reasons now i thing ur in a way judging the/a priest. u say very bad, how do you know. that's from your side.
Again Vassilios, you can't get a straight answer without telling us the whole story.
Also easy on the texting....it took me 15 mins to reply to this becasue everytime i click post, another person respond. :)
You come to terms with what the priest did to you through humility and prayer. Do not sit and wait on an apology from someone else for if you are right then you will recieve your dividends from God (better than a lil apology wouldnt you say?) and humble yourself before the priest and any others by remembering that as humans we are dust, the soul is all dat remains at the end. lets not then damage that by feeling bitter towards a priest or oders for what they have done to us but instead pray that God may find a way to solve this. In fairness, man shouldnt expect anything for we have already been given more than we deserve (Life itself). One final word, take permission to change FOC if you nd him cannot communicate any longer. (This is vital)
Well, thanks I love this advice. I still don't think im judging if EVERYONE around me admits that this priest is like that, and those that know the situation agree. I see a tomato, it looks like a tomato, it smells like a tomato, it tastes like a tomato, would i be judging if i said "i've just eaten a tomato" ? How can I be sure it wasn't a cucumber disguised as a tomato that was artificially grown such that its a cucumber that tastes like a tomato and looks like a tomato. lol ???
Mina and you are both Egyptians.. and this is the BIGGEST difference between western copts and eastern Copts (NO MATTER HOW LONG YOU HAVE LIVED IN THE WEST!!): Western Copts: you treat us with respect, we treat u with respect. Priest or no priest. Eastern Copts: Priests are God on earth. They are God in Society, and God everywhere. You deify priests... and that's bad because you don't give them a chance to be human. Why deify them for??!! You ALL do that... its worse in Egypt. Hopefully, and THANKFULLY there are priests with enough humilty to not let this attitude affect them, but there are some, that require to be deified.
But u are correct in many things you've said.
This entire incident has resulted in some AMAZING and very beneficial things for me. To the extent, i'd even like to thank the priest. But as I said, I prefer to just keep out of his way.
Having said that... if he calls me "Yabni" again, in a bad or demeaning way, i honestly can't guarantee i'll be "quiete" about it; but I'll try to remember that dust thing, and see if it works!!
Its awful.. he's spoken to other people this way before, men who are married, and with kids in front of others... i didnt think he'd do it to me.
What saddens me the most is that there are no Coptic Churches where we live and this Church is already very far as it is. If we left this one to go to another, we'd have no where to go. Why doesnt he care that we need to have communion? We are both scared of this man. I'm not kidding ONE bit.
Eastern Copts: Priests are God on earth. They are God in Society, and God everywhere. You deify priests... and that's bad because you don't give them a chance to be human. Why deify them for??!! You ALL do that... its worse in Egypt.
i have to disagree. this "Eastern Copts" mantality ur talking about is not as defined that way at all.
but the other "Western Copts" mantality ur talking about, to me, is only the one that the people of the countries outside egy have. becase for some rediculas reson they start thinking they have "rights".
anyway eastern or western, Priest have their respect. i u don't respect it, khalas ur responsible for yourself. they are not God, but in the same time they are not like us. they are men of God....that makes they do the works of God. how can you be with God if u don't follw the works of God.
i guess God always work.
Seriously, listen: Egyptians do deify priests. We don't have that mentality here in Europe. The priests themselves, to make matters worse, hang around with Egyptians in Europe who still have the same mentality. THey love that. They do deify priests.
In the west, we don't. In france, we treat them with a lot of respect, but we don't deify them.
Man, the most successful priest in this world must be Abouna Pishoy Kamel. Who can argue with that? He ran away from deification, yet he was a real "father". He nearly got himself killed in helping people...
I've never seen this before. All i've seen a priest do , SO FAR, is to go out of his way to make sure he's being deified - even to the extent that others don't come to Church - it deosnt matter - he needs his deification.
[quote author=minagir link=topic=5382.msg71656#msg71656 date=1180632100]
[quote author=vassilios link=topic=5382.msg71653#msg71653 date=1180629264]
Eastern Copts: Priests are God on earth. They are God in Society, and God everywhere. You deify priests... and that's bad because you don't give them a chance to be human. Why deify them for??!! You ALL do that... its worse in Egypt.
i have to disagree. this "Eastern Copts" mantality ur talking about is not as defined that way at all.
but the other "Western Copts" mantality ur talking about, to me, is only the one that the people of the countries outside egy have. becase for some rediculas reson they start thinking they have "rights".
anyway eastern or western, Priest have their respect. i u don't respect it, khalas ur responsible for yourself. they are not God, but in the same time they are not like us. they are men of God....that makes they do the works of God. how can you be with God if u don't follw the works of God.
i guess God always work.
Seriously, listen: Egyptians do deify priests. We don't have that mentality here in Europe. The priests themselves, to make matters worse, hang around with Egyptians in Europe who still have the same mentality. THey love that. They do deify priests.
you habibi deify is a big word. showing respect somtimes looks that way. but it doesn't that they are the gods. also i don't know about egys in Europe but here in the US, 'kol wa7ed mashee 3ala mazago' priest or no priest. atleast most of them. also they think they control the church. lol......easy with the word deify. there are many that are saints that are holy more than we would think of them...but we don't know that. so i think it's good to keep it for r self...saint or not ya3ny. atleast till there departure of this world.
Please 4give me 4 wat im about 2 say but it is how i feel:
* Do not under any circumstance judge a priest or speak about one in a negative way nor attack him verbally/ physically. God never leaves an individual who attacks a priest in any way and punishment to the individual is the end result (regardless whether a priest is right or wrong). Let us not forget that a priest is the shepered and we are his sheep, it is not 4 us to judge his priesthood practice/communication but it is up to God to do that. If the priest wishes not to speak to you or your friend then do not approach him and repeatedly talk to him regarding the issue, but instead switch off any communication for the time being until further time. It is not urgent that you speak to him in order to go 2 his church, or 2 have communion (just go 2 ur FOC nd confess to him the case) and if you gain absolution den ur fine to have communion in the eyes of God. Finally, prayer on your part in asking God 2 resolve the issue is essential and may God bless you.
I somewhat agree with what hes saying. I'm not saying i wouldn't have had the same thoughts/comments--infact i'd be upset too, i would have probably done the same thing you did vassilios!
[quote author=vassilios link=topic=5382.msg71648#msg71648 date=1180626949]
no no no
Don't worry.. this thread isnt about complaining about a priest.. my apologies if you thought this (perhaps its because we've all become close that I share personal information).
But this thread is about how do we have communion with a priest that has offended us and not said sorry.
Hizz Child was talking on the right path... what do u think?? do we NEED to get an apology?? If a person doesnt apologise what excuse can we give them? Perhaps they are born rude?? what??? Is this an acceptable excuse?? You tend to lose respect for someone if u give them an excuse for their sins that is totally ridiculous. Perhaps if i said to myself "Ohh ... come on.. perhaps its the way this priest speaks to his parents" - just saying or thinking this to myself creates a sense of disrespcet in my heart already.
Well in the mass, there is this part, i dont know why me head just went totally blank, but i forgot what it is, and it has to do with abouna saying "samhooni" or something similar. Maybe he thought you forgave him. Or just maybe he doesn't want to rise the topic up again, and abouna would know when someone is going to say something -- or what matter it comes from. His intentions on doing what he did was probably meant differently, and it slipped out the wrong way. Though the idea of the microphone..lol. Anyways dont worry, and im sure abouna will talk to you somehow sooner or later, and you'll straighten this out. God Bless You and i hope everything is better!
GB
Tony
Just to clear things up...we are talking about a COPTIC ORTHODOX priest right?
Yes.. its a Coptic Orthodox Priest.
Not all priests are like this.. i spoke to a good friend of mine who is a servent in the Church and he said that many people suffered from this priest's personality also.
However, there's a fault in his personality that results in him doing things that are wrong - immoral, and unChristian.
I cannot imagine why he would change if people continue to Deify him.
Once in Egypt, a guard wouldnt let me get to my hotel. I said "Please! I live here". He said "No.... walk around all of Tahrir Square!"
I pleaded with him. He said "no". I got SOO FRUSTRATED, that I took my EU passport out showed him I was French, and then I started to argue with him and all the police officers around him. When they saw the passport , they were like "hmmm... ok... we're sorry"...
I feel SOO BAD I had to shout at them!!! I HATE THAT! I HATE HOW I HAD TO USE MY PASSPORT TO GAIN RESPECT!!!
Now, i say this example for ONE reason. This priest uses his priesthood, and people's fear of his priesthood the same way I used my passport. And believe me, i've seen him speak to people in a way that was worse than how I spoke to those police officers.
I was shouting at these officers afterwards for ONE reason: not only did they waste my time, but they seem to respect European nationals MORE than their own nationals. AND I HATE THAT!!!!!
THere's a saying: "NO ONE CAN TREAT YOU IN A BAD WAY, UNLESS YOU GIVE THEM PERMISSION TO DO SO"...
and believe me, in a Coptic Church, where 90% of the congregation are immigrants (or even illegal immigrants), they give the priest the right and the authority to treat them and others this way.
In your case you are practising complete freedom with a bit of pride attached to it. [glow=red,2,300]You expect an apology from your priest and even go as far as saying that if he calls you "yabni" again, his priesthood might not be enough to save him from your response[/glow].
My question is do you see pride or humility in dat sentence,can you also see the practice of complete freedom? the core issue here is [glow=red,2,300]who are you to be wanting an apology from a priest?[/glow] you are one of the congregation and he is one of the priests chosen by God. Lets for a second dismiss that the priest does not represent God, can we also dismiss that he is the chosen leader to lead the church? It's like the son tellin his father "ey buddy u better watch wat u say wit me or things will get nasty", Where is the recognition for age differnce? For his position as a dad? or is dat also an egyptian mentality that we westerns have forgotten. Silence, humility and prayers are the key here or else i think you will end up damaging your spritual life more dan gaining nything else. Good luck again nd plz dnt get upset over what i said. God bless
Well, first of all - him calling me yabni is not an issue. Him raising his voice at me is. I won't tolerate that. Sorry. I can tolerate it if i've done something wrong... but to go to a priest and talk to him, and expect to be shouted at WITH such words being used - has nothing to do with pride. I mean... do u accept people to treat u this way???
Secondly, you say that he is chosen by God, and who am I?? Im just a simple pee-on that's not chosen by God. Yes.. u are right... totally. Who am I? He is a priest that is chosen by God, and I'm just a simple man in a congregation that's trying to live in peace with him. He therefore has th right to do dishonest things to us and has immunity from his actions because he was "chosen" by God.
I totally agree. I totally agree that u are the type of Egyptian person I'd love to report to the immigration authorities if i met u in France.
Your post does nothing but stir me with anger!!!
No one is above the law. He did dishonest things, and frankly speaking, i told him that if he continued it would be a crime and i'd take it as that.
Knowing how you think, u probably think the same as this priest, which makes me realise ONE small thing:
HOW MUCH I REGRET NOT HAVING HIM ARRESTED!!!!
Who am I? He is a priest that is chosen by God, and I'm just a simple man in a congregation that's trying to live in peace with him. He therefore has th right to do dishonest things to us and has immunity from his actions because he was "chosen" by God.
ur God's too. but that priest have the power to bind u with ur sin and loosen it. great to hear that ur not in the US...even thoo i really don't care.... great to see you angry........[am so bad ;D ;D ;D] so which law are you talking about vassiliso.
I have to side with my buddy Vas here. I've also experienced this, although to a much lesser degree, from a clergy member. I see no excuse for it. Chosen or not, they are human and are bound by the laws and sacraments they administer. Was not king Saul chosen by God? And who chose the priests of the Old Testament who defied him and worshiped idols at the behest of evil kings? Was it not God??? Who chose silent.monk to live in Australia? Who chose Vas to live in France, or me and mina to live in the U.S.? No one is perfect, and it appalls me to see that we expect this from our priests. We can never judge a person, but what is wrong with judging the action? All Vas is saying is, the priest behaved in a way that does not fit his position. What is wrong with that? Isn't this priest human? He makes mistakes just as much as everyone else. I'll remind you all that in Egypt in the late fifth century, after the Council of Chalcedon (which we still disagree with), when the Roman emperor Marcian tried to force a Chalcedonian patriarch on the Egyptians named Proterius, the Egyptians lynched Proterius. When the next emperor tried to instate the pro-Chalcedonian bishop Timothy "Wobble-Cap," the Egyptians deposed "Wobble-Cap." Also, during that time, the Copts used to elect, i.e. VOTE, for who would become their patriarch. Also, in the old church they did not treat the patriarch any differently from other bishops. That type of deification, which is still potent is Egypt, was brought about by the interactions with Islam; the Moslems used to treat their leaders in such a manner.
When we tell ourselves, "he's a clergyman, i can't question him," we imprison ourselves in the same dogmatic, blind acceptance of the status quo that was prevalent in the middle ages and discredited the church at the advent of Modernism. Our church is not monarchical; we cannot let it become such.
I hope I haven't offended anyone; I know this is a heated topic, and I apologize if i came off rude.
Ounashti nem Outaio
You don't come off as rude; in fact you supply a dimension we need in this discussion. Priests are called by God, and they are held to the highest standard of behaviour; they are Fathers, and it is impossible to retain respect for one's father if he behaves in a way that forfeits that respect, so, in one sense, Vassilios is raising the wider question of how we treat one another.
He has, rightly, not told us what has been so upsetting and hurtful, but we have come to know him here well enough to know that it must have been something pretty awful. We are all sinners, even priests, and we all stand in fear of judgement and in need of repentance. It was out of fear that Vassilios was damaging his own spiritual welfare that I suggested he might write things down and set them before the priest in a letter. Given the lack of alternative Churches where he is in France, he needs to find some closure on this so he can resume communion.
Just to say that a priest cannot be criticised even if he does something wrong is a very dangerous mindset; it was what got the Catholics into so much trouble with these child abuse scandals. People then said 'well, he is our priest, the allegations cannot be true'; well they were.
What Silent.Monk says about western mindsets is true up to a point. But there is a long tradition, even among the poor in the west, of speaking your mind and not deferring to authority just because it is authority. Taken too far that can be corrosive; but so can undue deference in all circumstances.
I hope, Vassilios, that you can find a way to some peace in your heart on this. Hate the sin but love the sinner, as we are charged with doing by Our Lord, is a hard way; but in the end the only one.
In Christ,
John
I totally agree, we're not here to ask others on how to hate,or anything.. no.. I just like to know how we cope with attending a mass with someone who has done something wrong against u, and not apologised for it. THe shouting etc, and calling me "yabni" etc ... is secondary.
I don't subscribe to the idea that as a priest, its his right to shout at us, and neither do i favour the idea that as a priest, they are "God's Chosen" people, and we are all pee-on's.
If he's God's chosen, why does he do things that are so unholy?
ANyway, i don't care anymore.
THanks guys,
[quote author=Anglian link=topic=5382.msg71717#msg71717 date=1180686146]
Dear EpNomos EnTaio,
You don't come off as rude; in fact you supply a dimension we need in this discussion. Priests are called by God, and they are held to the highest standard of behaviour; they are Fathers, and it is impossible to retain respect for one's father if he behaves in a way that forfeits that respect, so, in one sense, Vassilios is raising the wider question of how we treat one another.
He has, rightly, not told us what has been so upsetting and hurtful, but we have come to know him here well enough to know that it must have been something pretty awful. We are all sinners, even priests, and we all stand in fear of judgement and in need of repentance. It was out of fear that Vassilios was damaging his own spiritual welfare that I suggested he might write things down and set them before the priest in a letter. Given the lack of alternative Churches where he is in France, he needs to find some closure on this so he can resume communion.
Just to say that a priest cannot be criticised even if he does something wrong is a very dangerous mindset; it was what got the Catholics into so much trouble with these child abuse scandals. People then said 'well, he is our priest, the allegations cannot be true'; well they were.
What Silent.Monk says about western mindsets is true up to a point. But there is a long tradition, even among the poor in the west, of speaking your mind and not deferring to authority just because it is authority. Taken too far that can be corrosive; but so can undue deference in all circumstances.
I hope, Vassilios, that you can find a way to some peace in your heart on this. Hate the sin but love the sinner, as we are charged with doing by Our Lord, is a hard way; but in the end the only one.
In Christ,
John