Hello. I was browsing through the hymn texts and i noticed that i saw the hymn Nisavev teero under the feast of nativity. My question is why? Nisavev teero is NOT a festal hymn. It is a hymn specifically for the patriarch/bishop. Why do people always chant this hymn during the feasts?!
GB
Tony
Comments
Hello. I was browsing through the hymn texts and i noticed that i saw the hymn Nisavev teero under the feast of nativity. My question is why? Nisavev teero is NOT a festal hymn. It is a hymn specifically for the patriarch/bishop. Why do people always chant this hymn during the feasts?!
the reason is that, in my church, St. Mark's Jersy City, we say everything for HH since he is our bishop. So we say nisaviv, maroechasf, tobhina and akitchi also with only HH. i remeber seeing in a video of a feast for my church from the early 1990s, when i wasn't here, and they said pi-ehmot ghar and E-aghapy to. this is more of a tradition to our church. the first church in the US.
we only do that on feasts. and somtimes if it's HH calabration for somthing.
the reason is that, in my church, St. Mark's Jersy City, we say everything for HH since he is our bishop. So we say nisaviv, maroechasf, tobhina and akitchi also with only HH. i remeber seeing in a video of a feast for my church from the early 1990s, when i wasn't here, and they said pi-ehmot ghar and E-aghapy to. this is more of a tradition to our church. the first church in the US.
we only do that on feasts. and somtimes if it's HH calabration for somthing.
I realize what you are saying but it can be very confusing for others who see that. People should know that this hymn should not be chanted unless there was a bishop/patriarch present REGARDLESS. So even if he is your bishop, it still should not be said because he is not present(physically) in the liturgy. Im not going to try and force you to stop saying it, im just stating my opinion that it should not be said. But, for the sake of others, can you remove it from the feast section and place it in with the papal hymns?
GB
Tony
GB
Tony
What minagir, and jydeacon, I think is the basis for what is happening in answer to Amoussa01's question. But, I would still agree with Amoussa01 on their view. I think, as long as the Pope is not physically present, we shouldn't sing those hymns, unless of course, there is a bishop or archbishop that we can sing the same hymns for, and include them.
God bless you all and mention me in your prayers
Hello. I was browsing through the hymn texts and i noticed that i saw the hymn Nisavev teero under the feast of nativity. My question is why? Nisavev teero is NOT a festal hymn. It is a hymn specifically for the patriarch/bishop. Why do people always chant this hymn during the feasts?!
GB
Tony
Good point tony, but although we sing this during the presence of a bishop or patriarch, it can also be sung whenever a priest is praying the mass.
U know what? ask Hos Erof from Holland. This guy's a pro.
I realize what you are saying but it can be very confusing for others who see that. People should know that this hymn should not be chanted unless there was a bishop/patriarch present REGARDLESS. So even if he is your bishop, it still should not be said because he is not present(physically) in the liturgy. Im not going to try and force you to stop saying it, im just stating my opinion that it should not be said. But, for the sake of others, can you remove it from the feast section and place it in with the papal hymns?
[quote author=ophadece link=topic=5336.msg71061#msg71061 date=1179482646]
Dear all,
What minagir, and jydeacon, I think is the basis for what is happening in answer to Amoussa01's question. But, I would still agree with Amoussa01 on their view. I think, as long as the Pope is not physically present, we shouldn't sing those hymns, unless of course, there is a bishop or archbishop that we can sing the same hymns for, and include them.
God bless you all and mention me in your prayers
[quote author=Amoussa01 link=topic=5336.msg71054#msg71054 date=1179468215]
I would like to apologize if i sounded harsh, it was not my intention.
Antony, you're not the first one and wont be the last to say this. i remeber PaulS criticizing this to and one of our resurrection liturgies. but like i said before, it's more of tradition than anything else.
[quote author=vassilios link=topic=5336.msg71062#msg71062 date=1179482761]
it can also be sung whenever a priest is praying the mass.
No, they were right, you only say the hymn in the presense of a bishop.
Some hymns can be chanted for the bisschop of the specific obrosheya (i can't remember the english term), at any time. An example, if you are in Giza and Anba Domadios is the bisschop of the area you will always pray for him during the litanies, whether he is present or not. I'm not exactly sure which hymns full under this category according to the "official rites", it may also depend on the custom of the church.
I know in my church we occasionally say nee savev on feasts, while we know its wrong but we don't get many visits from bisschops lol, and a lot of people find this hymn festal to the ear. It's a stupid argument, I know, but we are dealing with Egyptians here ;D. From what I hear around me, this same thing happens in a lot of churches though (again, that is not an excuse to practise it, it's just reality). i didnt know i was a pro Vassilios ;), no but seriously I'm not. I just share the things that I was thaught at church or things I read in books that were written by knowledgeable people like Anba Mattaos etc.
If you insist in going against this, you are putting yourself and others around u in serious risk of becoming protestant.
If you really wanna sing it, get a picture of your favourite Bishop and carry it with u. lol
Thanks Hos Erof!
[quote author=Hos Erof link=topic=5336.msg71095#msg71095 date=1179529466]
Technically speaking most of these hymns (nee savev, ee aghapy, marouchasf, akchi etc) are ONLY chanted when a the Pope or a Bisschop is present physically like stated before.
Some hymns can be chanted for the bisschop of the specific obrosheya (i can't remember the english term), at any time. An example, if you are in Giza and Anba Domadios is the bisschop of the area you will always pray for him during the litanies, whether he is present or not. I'm not exactly sure which hymns full under this category according to the "official rites", it may also depend on the custom of the church.
I know in my church we occasionally say nee savev on feasts, while we know its wrong but we don't get many visits from bisschops lol, and a lot of people find this hymn festal to the ear. It's a stupid argument, I know, but we are dealing with Egyptians here ;D. From what I hear around me, this same thing happens in a lot of churches though (again, that is not an excuse to practise it, it's just reality). i didnt know i was a pro Vassilios ;), no but seriously I'm not. I just share the things that I was thaught at church or things I read in books that were written by knowledgeable people like Anba Mattaos etc.
I think stupid arguments (dealing with Egyptians) are too many to be counted when it comes to rites when to sing certain hymns. I think this also goes for "melismatic keryelyeson", and long "ebouro", as I think both hymns are annual and not necessarily joyful. Correct me if I am wrong please.
God bless you all and mention me in your prayers
If you insist in going against this, you are putting yourself and others around u in serious risk of becoming protestant.
i just read this.....i guess that means my church, including me of course or Coptic Orthodox Protestants doing everything that copts do except we say ni-saviv in feast...................any one disagreeees ::)
[quote author=ophadece link=topic=5336.msg71266#msg71266 date=1179865784]
Thank you hos erof,
I think this also goes for "melismatic keryelyeson", and long "ebouro", as I think both hymns are annual and not necessarily joyful.
first which Kerie leison. second Ep-oro is not really a festive hymn. it's a long version bass. if it's a festive hymn why would you say it in glorifications and why would you say it in Weddings. yes weddings are festive but that's for it's tune not for the hymns themselves.
We'd have to define what a festive hymns is: It's either a hymn that is said on joyfull occasions OR you could define it as a hymn with a festive tune, ya3ni the long hiten sounds joyfull, but is chanted also on annual days...that would make it a non-festive hymn in my opinion, the same goes for many other hymns like the long espatir (its a major hymn, not a festive hymn), epouro and nisavev.
Anywayz, at our church we sometimes chant epouro in the major tune at the end of Nek nai o panouti in the midnight praise, and the same goes for the conclusion of the Morning Doxologies. The hymn is also said in the procession after someone is baptized, which includes non-festive days like Lent. This is funny, I like your idea, but I'm sure most deacons have pictures of HH in their church books, so according to your logic we still can chant nisavev at any time...I hope that comforts you mina ;D
We'd have to define what a festive hymns is: It's either a hymn that is said on joyfull occasions OR you could define it as a hymn with a festive tune, ya3ni the long hiten sounds joyfull, but is chanted also on annual days...that would make it a non-festive hymn in my opinion, the same goes for many other hymns like the long espatir (its a major hymn, not a festive hymn), epouro and nisavev.
Ic Pateer is a hymn for only the pope/bishops. It is the same with nisavev
[quote author=Hos Erof link=topic=5336.msg71270#msg71270 date=1179871447]
Anywayz, at our church we sometimes chant epouro in the major tune at the end of Nek nai o panouti in the midnight praise, and the same goes for the conclusion of the Morning Doxologies. The hymn is also said in the procession after someone is baptized, which includes non-festive days like Lent..
It is incorrect to chant eporo in the major tune in neknai opanooty, often you will see monks or some priests do, but FYI it is not right.
Atleast dont do it EVERY time you say neknai.
GB
Tony
I know for sure that you can chant the long epouro at the end of the morning doxologies (it is recorded that way in the 7 melodies hymn), so why couldn't you chant it also in the midnight praise. Especially because this hymn can be chanted "at all times" as the deacons service book describes.
I'm not saying it happens every time we say Neknai, but sometimes it does happen, and as far as I know there's no rite that says it is incorrect to do so.
In fact, chanting the long epouro is the most wonderfull experience after long hours of praising, and its the most powerfull conclusion of the conclusion of the Theotokia.
We'd have to define what a festive hymns is: It's either a hymn that is said on joyfull occasions OR you could define it as a hymn with a festive tune, ya3ni the long hiten sounds joyfull, but is chanted also on annual days...that would make it a non-festive hymn in my opinion, the same goes for many other hymns like the long espatir (its a major hymn, not a festive hymn), epouro and nisavev.
there is 2 versions of the hitens. one for annual days which i think is recorded by HICS and muallem Mikhael, and one with an extra part on that annual one for festive days.
[quote author=Amoussa01 link=topic=5336.msg71271#msg71271 date=1179875299]
Ic Pateer is a hymn for only the pope/bishops. It is the same with nisavev
yes Pater is not a papal hymn. HICS have it recorded for almost all the annual liturgies and most of the feasts. and about ni-savev i think we reached a conclusion allready. i agree with Hos Erfo. i think he provided agreat example concerning the 7 ways hymn.
they said that all of the known versions of the way to start the Hitens are all anual. Here is the link: http://www.coptichymns.net/module-library-viewpub-tid-1-pid-133.html
Actually if i am not mistaken the extra part of Hiten is still anual. i believe i read it in an article on coptichymns.net
they said that all of the known versions of the way to start the Hitens are all anual. Here is the link: http://www.coptichymns.net/module-library-viewpub-tid-1-pid-133.html
i personnally don't trust this. they're like the Coptic Haritage. 'You can say this anytime....' that's my opinion.
anyway in the article he spoke about Cantor Fahim Girgis as a source. i heard Muallem Fahim saying that it's hitene el-faraihee.
Actually you are correct the really long hiten is Festal but the "semi-long" hiten i heard recording in the annual section on this site by Ibrahim, but the really long one is only recorded during the feasts.
yes. if you wanna learn the festive one, learn from HICS or muallemFarag or Wagdi Bishara
not Ibrahim Ayad. because he makes up a part.
When i learned it i used the Choir from the Cathedral i find them useful. Last time i went to Egypt they said it the same in most of the churches so i decided it was reliable enough to learn from.
that's exactly where i learned it from. and they say it that way. but for some redeculas reason....Ibrahim Ayad added it.
regular ic pateer is not a papal hymn but the major way is
not fully. it's considered both. most cantors recorded it in annual and festive occasions. same for tobh hina. they both go hand to hand. it's just that the part for the pope makes it a papal hymn.
[quote author=Amoussa01 link=topic=5336.msg71298#msg71298 date=1179941453]
the long hiten can be said at ANY TIME. People say there are two long ways but techinicaly its only ONE. A lot of people cut out the extension. Its supposed to be one LONg way but people cut it short, either they dont know it or do it to save time. It is not festive at all (even if it sounds that way).
hhhhmmmmmmmmmmm.....there is two ways Tony. two diffrtent recording for all the muallemin more specificily Muallem Mikhael himself. also we don't say it's supposed be this or that. we have 2 diffrent recordings in 2 ways. and i personnally think there is a diffrent between both. the short one is basicly like Entho te-tishori. the other long one....which i still belive to call festive, have the extra high part. to me that part sounds festive. also u don't see those hazzat of the extra part in any other hymns....which i think give it a little uniquness what do you mean by this. hymns are what they sound like. sometimes they are yes against that but still. like u can't say a hymn that sounds festive in like holy week or on days that are not festive.
Dear mina, the point that i was trying to make was that, just because a hymn sounds festive, doesnt mean its supposed to be said on festive days. A good example would be ouniatk...this hymn is very festive but guess what.....its said during holy week, which is a time of mourning and sad hymns.
i think there was many posts on ch.net about that and we found out that lahn is not fully festive but it's also a mohaiar....and a baralex. hmm does that mean all the hymns or prayers that have HH name are papal?!!!!!!!!!
also can i ask who taught you this?
i think there was many posts on ch.net about that and we found out that lahn is not fully festive but it's also a mohaiar....and a baralex.
I disagree. and who is WE? I do however believe it has a paralex.
i learn from albair. Regarding the Ic pateer.......thats not what i said. I said it makes sense because we are asking God to keep the life of HH.
Amen. One is the Holy Father, One is the Holy Son, One is the Holy Spirit. Amen.
To You is dominion in the day of your power, in the light of the saints, from the womb before the morning star, have I begotten You. The Lord swore and will not repent, "You are a priest forever according to the order of Melchizedek." (Our holy father, the high priest, Pope Abba (Shenouda)) [3 times].
i think the only thing that put HH in this response is the 'You are the priest ...' because if u include the high priest of all times, which is Jesus, you than have to call the high priest on earth.
and than you continue with HH because you can't not leave him without finishing praying for him and than his prayers for us. i don't think hiteni is a problem because ur just asking for his prayers. but than you have Aspasmos Adam. ur asking for his life aren't you.
[move]This is true. Ni savev teero should only be said when there is a bishop present or the Pope himself is there. I have had many arguments about this but no one wants to listen. So maybe you guys will agree with me like many of you have already said. Cheers.
If you guys need any information regarding rites hymns and so on, just email me. [email protected]. God Bless!!! Moallem Isaac Hanna. Archangel Michael and Saint Bishoy, Mount Druitt, Sydney, Australia.[/move]
hi moallem Isaac. i think we have got to this conclusion allready below and why my church would sometimes say it.
anyways, since ur a muallem in a church, shere with us some info about ur self. it's would be great to know more about you so other can actually ask more quetions about rites and alhan here in the forum.
welcome to Tasbeha.org :)