How do u know! That's judging!!! You are now judging. Sure, we love the embryo, but we hate their sin. To say they have no sin is judging.
(( SHoft ba2a! lama2at ollie "judging" keda 3alatool, wa mashi feeha, bit talla3 sha3riee ))
lol....thats funny....it wasnt on my mind to judge...for that i apologise....
i asked abouna about that topic.... all he says is that the communion doesnt belong to the "digestiv system" (hope i wrote it right) ... cause if it is so we have to wait about 6 hours and so on ... the comunion means that the person who takes it is going for it and so on...so the baby doesnt take part of it...cause the communion is just for that person who takes it and it doesnt belong to the baby... hope i translated it right... ;D
pp4m :)
The communion doesnt belong to the digestive system?! But how? I thought that we have to fast 8 hours before taking the communion so that our stomachs are empty and the 1st thing that we receive in our stomachs is the body of christ: its not present with other foods. Even, there were some saints that used to eat sugar before the mass (8 hours before the mass) so that the last thing in their stomachs WAS sweet: ie there was something sweet in their stomachs to "welcome" the Holy Body in their stomachs.
i dont know...i am not a priest and not the son of a preist...thats what i understood....have u asked a priest to that topic? maybe he will give u a good answer that u can share with us...i sggest everyone should ask his FOC about that and we share it...ha?
[quote author=Αριψαλιν link=topic=5402.msg72359#msg72359 date=1181565947] i dont know...i am not a priest and not the son of a preist...thats what i understood....have u asked a priest to that topic? maybe he will give u a good answer that u can share with us...i sggest everyone should ask his FOC about that and we share it...ha?
just a thought from me
pp4m
I don't have an FoC, my FoC asked me to send him a letter saying I don't want him anymore. I'll have to wait for you guys to come back to me.
I don't have an FoC, my FoC asked me to send him a letter saying I don't want him anymore. I'll have to wait for you guys to come back to me.
Why that? thats confusing me... however...is ther no other priest u can ask?
Not in Paris. I'll have to go to the UK. The priest in paris scares the life out of me, he talks abut himself too much, and is very bizarre. We are peace together, but I'd rather not bother him - I just wanna go and have communion and leave.
[quote author=Αριψαλιν link=topic=5402.msg72370#msg72370 date=1181569465] in paris there is just on priest??? how? we here in vienna have i think at least4 if not more...and a bishop
There's ONE church in Paris (or near a metro station). The rest are in the suburbs; and when I say suburbs, u need a car to get there, and at least 1 hour drive time.
So, i live in downtown paris... there is one church, although its far,its still reachable, and im interested in taking the communion and leaving.
Im glad we have priests where we don't see Christ in them. It definately helps being attached to the sacrements and the liturgy, and definately not by a man.
+++ to my opinion the child in the womb of mother is under the responsibility of the family or the mother. as far as the mother confess and she is babtized i dont think that not bieng unbabtized of the child in the womb will create a problem. let me ask u question. a child when he/she get batbtized we dont know weather he believes in orthodox religion, i mean for some one to be babtized he/she have to believe. for instance if a person want to be orthodox christian he/she should firt learn and believe, after this he/she will be babtized. so here for a pregnant women to take the holy communion, the child in the womb is not a problem. as far as the mother get confessed. this is from my little knowlege.
please if u ask fathers and get reason for this, let us know thanks
if she confesses after she does this sin ( not saying it is or not - but just go along lol ) and knowing its a sin, it wouldnt be right becuase its like saying God forgive me for what i am about to do.. and then do a sin and go confess... that means anyone could sin all they want and go confess.. just my opinion about confessing after taking communion during pregnancy-- if its a sin
Well since you guys are so eager to find the answer to this, I asked a visiting bishop about this. Oh and BTW, when I asked sayedna he said to my abouna who was sitting next to him and he's like "you got some real perverted people in this church" :o lol
Anyway, he said that babys are sinless when in the mothers womb, therefore worthy of partaking of the holy mysteries. However, after the baby is born, he is spiritually dead because he is born into the sin of adam. However, once baptized, he is then again worthy of it.
[quote author=PopeKyrillos link=topic=5402.msg72396#msg72396 date=1181603247] Well since you guys are so eager to find the answer to this, I asked a visiting bishop about this. Oh and BTW, when I asked sayedna he said to my abouna who was sitting next to him and he's like "you got some real perverted people in this church" :o lol
Anyway, he said that babys are sinless when in the mothers womb, therefore worthy of partaking of the holy mysteries. However, after the baby is born, he is spiritually dead because he is born into the sin of adam. However, once baptized, he is then again worthy of it.
PK
You have to admit - it was a good question- PK?! Which bishop was this then!??
Besides, this forum has had EVERYSINGLE topic discussed except for this one, and i think your answer solidifies already a lot theological issues that we've learnt up till now.
Maged will probably erase this and say "Its a dumb topic" - but i really gained a lot, and I hope u all liked it too.
[quote author=minagir link=topic=5402.msg71992#msg71992 date=1181048533] [quote author=vassilios link=topic=5402.msg71989#msg71989 date=1181048195] Listen, i'm not saying i don't like u, Im not saying I Do like you, but I don't like you! Don't take it personally, just take it!"
So, it was a subliminal joke between me and a friend. UNTIL YOU CAME ALONG!! Typical Egyptian!!! YA MINA!!!
lol. i guess great joke than. but to me, it's more fun to break.....hehe.... ;D ;D ;D :D. and yes am egy, am broud of it. and lets stay freinds by u not talking about the egys.
LOL i guess i break the gap between you 2 by being 50% French, and 50% Egyptian- I guess that's why i'm stupid...
[quote author=PopeKyrillos link=topic=5402.msg72410#msg72410 date=1181621087] [quote author=minagir link=topic=5402.msg71992#msg71992 date=1181048533] [quote author=vassilios link=topic=5402.msg71989#msg71989 date=1181048195] Listen, i'm not saying i don't like u, Im not saying I Do like you, but I don't like you! Don't take it personally, just take it!"
So, it was a subliminal joke between me and a friend. UNTIL YOU CAME ALONG!! Typical Egyptian!!! YA MINA!!!
lol. i guess great joke than. but to me, it's more fun to break.....hehe.... ;D ;D ;D :D. and yes am egy, am broud of it. and lets stay freinds by u not talking about the egys.
LOL i guess i break the gap between you 2 by being 50% French, and 50% Egyptian- I guess that's why i'm stupid...
Oh you're half french? THat's great!! Welcome to this forum!!!!
Anyway, he said that babys are sinless when in the mothers womb, therefore worthy of partaking of the holy mysteries. However, after the baby is born, he is spiritually dead because he is born into the sin of adam. However, once baptized, he is then again worthy of it.
sinless and after they ar born they sinned????? it doesnt make sence at all....they must have the sin of adam inside...or else the holy spirit didnt "clean" the womb of the holy virgin? or?
sorry if i write something wrong or so....but thats my opinion.... pp4m
Anyway, he said that babys are sinless when in the mothers womb, therefore worthy of partaking of the holy mysteries. However, after the baby is born, he is spiritually dead because he is born into the sin of adam. However, once baptized, he is then again worthy of it.
sinless and after they ar born they sinned????? it doesnt make sence at all....they must have the sin of adam inside...or else the holy spirit didnt "clean" the womb of the holy virgin? or?
sorry if i write something wrong or so....but thats my opinion.... pp4m
Babies are sinless insofar as when they are born they have not committed any sins of their own volition. However, since they are fully human and possess a full human nature, they are born with the end result of Adam's sin, i.e. they are born with a corruptible nature that is prone to sin. It is this corruptibility that is cleansed at baptism and is renewed every time we sin, repent and confess. Is it possible to lead a sinless life? Yes. We have examples of it in the lives of the Saints: we have the most Holy Theotokos, St. John the Baptist as well as St. Bishoy (often referred to as the righteous and perfect man). How were these people sinless? They submitted themselves fully to the will of God. That is the only way we can be sinless in this life.
You're mistaken. Read Anglican's last post in this topic. He speaks what I know is what accepted by our Church and Orthodoxy as a whole. We don't "inherit" the sin of Adam. We live in the consequence of his sin- and that is the corruptible nature. To put it this way, if the Mum was on crack, the child would be crack addicted. That was blunt, but I think it is effective.
I recommend reading St. Athanasius's "On the Incarnation", and researching Original Sin vs Ancestral sin. I also recommend St John Chrysostom's homily of Romans, especially chapter 6.
I know that it says in Ps. 50(51) "I was brought forth in iniquity and in sin my mother conceived me." But it is "in sin", "in iniquity", i.e. in a world where death and sin reign.
I mean if we believed sin was inherited- Jesus would have sin because of His mother! There is no evidence in scripture or tradition to say this so called inheritance of the original sin was from the father! If anything, the famously quoted verse in Psalms suggests its the mother! If so, we are going to have to believe that Virgin Mary was also immaculately conceived.
I think I am right. Please correct me Anglican or anyone.
you are absolutely correct. We most definitely do NOT inherit the sin of adam or our forefathers. we inherit the corrupt nature that fell upon them because of the sin they committed.
At the end of the day, after hearing all your arguments, i've come to the following conclusion:
a) Its wrong to say that since the child is not yet born, they are somehow spiritually different than a child that is born. That's not true. Its a child since the fusion of a sperm and egg in the mother's womb; to the extent, we do not believe in abortion at the stage where the embryo is just a few cells growing
b) The baby in its mother's womb WILL partake of all the nutrients the mother partakes of (spiritual & physical).
c) During baptism, the mother takes responsibility for the baby's faith. She denounces satan on behalf of her baby; she takes the oath the baby should take on her baby's behalf.
d) The baby IS receiving the Holy Body & Blood of Christ. It IS having Holy Communion. What happens is after its born, after 40 days, it is baptised and can have communion afterwards. It DID have communion BEFORE it was baptised (in its mother's womb), but after being born it is now subjected to the Church sacremants in full which, in the Orthodox Church, still adhere to rituals/traditions etc from the Old Testament.
Put it this way: If a baby dies in its mother's womb, say whilst she was giving birth, and the baby DID have communion (via its mother's faith) , for me, this baby will go to Heaven. It was baptised in its mother's womb WITH the mother's faith. Its with the mother's faith that we baptise our children in the Coptic CHurch. I didnt know anything about God, but i was baptised at 40 days after my birth.
What do u think??
Also, if my topics were useless, as Maged says, how comes this topic has nearly 500 hits????
I mean if we believed sin was inherited- Jesus would have sin because of His mother!
no he has not...cause the holy spirit came over her and "cleand " her.... so if the holy spirut didnt so he would have the sin of adam...
For starters, I was being hypothetical. That is to say I was trying to think what would have happen "if we believed" in something we know not to be true.
Again I stress, inheritance of sin is not believed by our Church, but the inheritance of the corruptible nature. That is the potential for sin. Most certainly Christ Jesus inherited this, because if He didn't, He would not be able to redeem us!
Again you fall into a heresy, something in the magnitude of the Apollinarians. He believed the union of full Divinity and humanity in one person absurdity- in effect "nature" and "person" for him was the same. He also thought that if the Savior inherited the rational soul common to mankind, that he would have the possibility of sin and be determined to do so (this is the centre power of self-determination).
St. Gregory, Patriarch of COnstantinople wrote in his epistle against this saying, "If any one has put his trust in Him as a man without a human mind, he himself is devoid of mind and unworthy of salvation. For what He has not assumed He has not healed; it is what is united to His Deity that is saved..."
St. Athanasius (wohoo! Go Egypt! :P) also wrote against this in Tomus ad Antiochenos: The Savior had not a body without a soul, nor without perception, now without a mind; for neither was it possile that, when the Lord became Man for us, his body should be without a mind; now was it body only; but soul also that attained salvation in the Word Himself and being truly Son of God, He, the same, became also firstborn among many brethren."
As you can see, Christ Jesus had to inherit everything that makes us who we are, i.e. our nature, our humanity in order to be our savior.
[quote author=QT_PA_2T link=topic=5402.msg72672#msg72672 date=1182155311] Put it this way: If a baby dies in its mother's womb, say whilst she was giving birth, and the baby DID have communion (via its mother's faith) , for me, this baby will go to Heaven. salvation (i.e. going to heaven) is granted when follwing the sacrments of the church. 5 of the 7 are needed to be saved.
It was baptised in its mother's womb WITH the mother's faith. Its with the mother's faith that we baptise our children in the Coptic CHurch.
yes they are baptised upon there mother's (or eshbeen's) faith. but here we're talking about phiscal baptism, or batsim in blood or in other ways....not being dead in his mother womb.
I didnt know anything about God, but i was baptised at 40 days after my birth.
yes that's true. and for females it's 80 days. but those days are not for the baby but for the mother to get back to normal. the baby after he/she is born, they can be baptised.
------ (lol....i just found out who's QT_PA_2T.....)
[quote author=Doubting Thomas link=topic=5402.msg72674#msg72674 date=1182159549] Most certainly Christ Jesus inherited this, because if He didn't, He would not be able to redeem us!
As you can see, Christ Jesus had to inherit everything that makes us who we are, i.e. our nature, our humanity in order to be our savior.
please someone correct me if am wrong but isn't that inheritence of the sin of Adam, death, only happends - take effact - apply to us when we actually get to die. so yes we were born with the corruptable nature....but we wont take it in affect except when we actually die. so if we're living, ther would be nothing to worry about it.
Christ on the other hand was incorruptable.....for He went into hedes but He was not corrupted by it but crushed death by His own.
We are told that the Incarnate Word was like unto us in everything save sin.
As we have seen several times here, our Church does not believe in the Augustinian version of original sin (or at least in what is popularly assumed to be that); i.e. we not not believe that our human nature is corrupted because we inherit the sin of Adam. We inherit the effects of the sin of Adam upon the world, and the weakening of our human nature as a result; we would say that we are made in the image of God, but that image is marred by the effects of sin. Through the process of Theosis we can redeem that image - that is through living the Christian life in the Church.
The Incarnate Word's human nature was perfectly in the image of the Father - He and the Father were one, and he who saw the Son, saw the Father. Therefore Christ's human nature, being united with His Divine nature, was the model of what we are meant to be, and what we have the assurance from Him that we shall be when we are in Him and He in us.
In possessing the real fulness of our human nature, unmarred by sin, Our Lord shows us what we can aspire to through Him. By being sinless and yet being put to death unjustly, He broke the hold that death and Satan had established on us; Satan overreached himself in trying to claim to the inheritance of death one who possessed no sin.
These are, of course, deep matters, and I have tried to give the understanding of them I have been taught - but welcome correction, clarification and addition.
For reasons above, I believe it is tradition to say that Christ inherited our corruptible nature (not Corrupted!).
I allude to the same quotes most explicit of which is from St. Gregory: For what He has not assumed He has not healed; it is what is united to His Deity that is saved..."
If he does not inherit whatever we have from Adam, we should not be able to trust in Him. St Athanasius in De Icnarnate showed how He died like us, but His Divinity did not allow Him to see corruption.
I need to rush, but it cannot be said that Christ was born without anything we haven't been born with. For if He did, how could we trust in Him who wasn't tempted (Yes, the Devil tried, but Jesus would have cheated if He did not have a corruptible nature).
That wasn't eloquent, but I hope this serves its purpose.
I do understand what you are saying, but the concept of sin it incorporates is not how the Church has understood this matter.
Hebrews 4:15 For we do not have a High Priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but was in all points tempted as we are, yet without sin.
and
John 8:46 Which of you convicts Me of sin? And if I tell the truth, why do you not believe Me?
and also
2 Corinthians 5:21 For He made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.
and this,
1 Peter 2:22 Who committed no sin, Nor was deceit found in His mouth;
and another,
1 John 3:5 And you know that He was manifested to take away our sins, and in Him there is no sin.
On 10 May 1973, Pope Shenouda III and Pope Paul VI of Rome signed a common declaration which included the following (emphasis added by me):
In accordance with our apostolic traditions transmitted to our Churches and preserved therein, and in conformity with the early three ecumenical councils, we confess one faith in the One Triune God, the divinity of the Only Begotten Son of God, the Second Person of the, Holy Trinity, the Word of God, the effulgence of His glory and the express image of His substance, who for us was incarnate, assuming for Himself a real body with a rational soul, and who shared with us our humanity but without sin.
Pope Shenouda III in his book Words of Spiritual Benefit volume II (1989) wrote:
The one who is without sin, carried sin for our sake... He did not feel ashamed to walk forward with the sinners and ask his servant, John, to baptise Him.
In his The Divinity of Christ (1989), His Holiness writes:
The Apostles testified to the Lord, saying that He "was in all points tempted as we are, yet without sin" (Heb.4:15); He "knew no sin" (2 Cor. 5:21); "in Him there was no sin" (1 John 3:5), and that He "committed no sin, nor was guile found in His mouth" (1 Pet. 2:22).
That seems a pretty conclusive list of evidences to me, but, of course, I may be missing something. But I suspect that you may be operating from the Roman Catholic, or Augustinian concept of Original Sin. The Orthodox concept of human nature is that, unmarred by the effects of sin, we are made in God's image; the Incarnate Word, being of one substance with the Father, was, indeed, in His image, and His human nature was perfect - and makes our marred nature perfect. If He had been marred by sin, He could not have redeemed us, because He would have been subject to the penalty of sin, which is death, and He could no more have risen from the dead than we can. That is what St. Gregory means when he writes about what is assumed and what is healed.
As I say, I may understand this wrongly, but I merely follow the teachings of the Church as I have been taught them.
Those quotes only show that He did not sin, which I have not disagreed with. They even support me. For instance, Hebrews 4:15 shows that he was tempted as we are, yet without sin. That means there must have been the potential to rebel. In effect it is saying, like us He could have been corrupted, but when He was tempted in the same way we are (independence from God, greed for power, testing God) but He did not bow down to it. Read it carefully, and you see that it says he could sympathesise with our weakness. How could He if He could not sin! How could He if He was not corruptible?
Note: I say corruptible i.e. potential to sin, or to corrupt; not corrupted i.e. already sinned etc.
1 Pet 2:22 doesn't help, it further says He committed no sin. i.e. He wasn't corrupted.
I am not saying that Christ had to sin in order to save us. In fact, I am saying the opposite. That He had to be able to sin, to help us who also are able to sin. And because He used His humanity not to sin, that He proved that with grace that we also can be like Him, and not sin.
I end with the quote from St. Gregory: For what He has not assumed He has not healed; it is what is united to His Deity that is saved..."
This does not make it imminent that Jesus had to have sin. In fact He assumed sin for us, but He never committed them.
This does not make it imminent that Jesus had to have sin. In fact He assumed sin for us, but He never committed them.
Yes, I would agree that this is what the Church teaches. Our Lord was like unto us in everything except He was sinless. Like the first Adam, and like all humankind, He could be subject to temptation - but as He showed time and again, He was without sin; His nature was not weakened as our nature is; His sinlessness redeemed our sin. Hebrews 4:15 sums it up.
Comments
i asked abouna about that topic....
all he says is that the communion doesnt belong to the "digestiv system" (hope i wrote it right) ... cause if it is so we have to wait about 6 hours and so on ... the comunion means that the person who takes it is going for it and so on...so the baby doesnt take part of it...cause the communion is just for that person who takes it and it doesnt belong to the baby...
hope i translated it right... ;D
pp4m :)
The communion doesnt belong to the digestive system?! But how? I thought that we have to fast 8 hours before taking the communion so that our stomachs are empty and the 1st thing that we receive in our stomachs is the body of christ: its not present with other foods. Even, there were some saints that used to eat sugar before the mass (8 hours before the mass) so that the last thing in their stomachs WAS sweet: ie there was something sweet in their stomachs to "welcome" the Holy Body in their stomachs.
just a thought from me
pp4m
i dont know...i am not a priest and not the son of a preist...thats what i understood....have u asked a priest to that topic? maybe he will give u a good answer that u can share with us...i sggest everyone should ask his FOC about that and we share it...ha?
just a thought from me
pp4m
I don't have an FoC, my FoC asked me to send him a letter saying I don't want him anymore. I'll have to wait for you guys to come back to me.
however...is ther no other priest u can ask?
however...is ther no other priest u can ask?
Not in Paris. I'll have to go to the UK. The priest in paris scares the life out of me, he talks abut himself too much, and is very bizarre. We are peace together, but I'd rather not bother him - I just wanna go and have communion and leave.
we here in vienna have i think at least4 if not more...and a bishop
in paris there is just on priest??? how?
we here in vienna have i think at least4 if not more...and a bishop
There's ONE church in Paris (or near a metro station). The rest are in the suburbs; and when I say suburbs, u need a car to get there, and at least 1 hour drive time.
So, i live in downtown paris... there is one church, although its far,its still reachable, and im interested in taking the communion and leaving.
Im glad we have priests where we don't see Christ in them. It definately helps being attached to the sacrements and the liturgy, and definately not by a man.
to my opinion the child in the womb of mother is under the responsibility of the family or the mother. as far as the mother confess and she is babtized i dont think that not bieng unbabtized of the child in the womb will create a problem. let me ask u question. a child when he/she get batbtized we dont know weather he believes in orthodox religion, i mean for some one to be babtized he/she have to believe. for instance if a person want to be orthodox christian he/she should firt learn and believe, after this he/she will be babtized.
so here for a pregnant women to take the holy communion, the child in the womb is not a problem. as far as the mother get confessed. this is from my little knowlege.
please if u ask fathers and get reason for this, let us know
thanks
confused yet? lol
lol
Anyway, he said that babys are sinless when in the mothers womb, therefore worthy of partaking of the holy mysteries. However, after the baby is born, he is spiritually dead because he is born into the sin of adam. However, once baptized, he is then again worthy of it.
PK
Well since you guys are so eager to find the answer to this, I asked a visiting bishop about this. Oh and BTW, when I asked sayedna he said to my abouna who was sitting next to him and he's like "you got some real perverted people in this church" :o
lol
Anyway, he said that babys are sinless when in the mothers womb, therefore worthy of partaking of the holy mysteries. However, after the baby is born, he is spiritually dead because he is born into the sin of adam. However, once baptized, he is then again worthy of it.
PK
You have to admit - it was a good question- PK?!
Which bishop was this then!??
Besides, this forum has had EVERYSINGLE topic discussed except for this one, and i think your answer solidifies already a lot theological issues that we've learnt up till now.
Maged will probably erase this and say "Its a dumb topic" - but i really gained a lot, and I hope u all liked it too.
[quote author=vassilios link=topic=5402.msg71989#msg71989 date=1181048195]
Listen, i'm not saying i don't like u, Im not saying I Do like you, but I don't like you! Don't take it personally, just take it!"
So, it was a subliminal joke between me and a friend. UNTIL YOU CAME ALONG!! Typical Egyptian!!! YA MINA!!!
lol. i guess great joke than. but to me, it's more fun to break.....hehe.... ;D ;D ;D :D.
and yes am egy, am broud of it. and lets stay freinds by u not talking about the egys.
LOL i guess i break the gap between you 2 by being 50% French, and 50% Egyptian- I guess that's why i'm stupid...
[quote author=minagir link=topic=5402.msg71992#msg71992 date=1181048533]
[quote author=vassilios link=topic=5402.msg71989#msg71989 date=1181048195]
Listen, i'm not saying i don't like u, Im not saying I Do like you, but I don't like you! Don't take it personally, just take it!"
So, it was a subliminal joke between me and a friend. UNTIL YOU CAME ALONG!! Typical Egyptian!!! YA MINA!!!
lol. i guess great joke than. but to me, it's more fun to break.....hehe.... ;D ;D ;D :D.
and yes am egy, am broud of it. and lets stay freinds by u not talking about the egys.
LOL i guess i break the gap between you 2 by being 50% French, and 50% Egyptian- I guess that's why i'm stupid...
Oh you're half french? THat's great!! Welcome to this forum!!!!
:D
sorry if i write something wrong or so....but thats my opinion....
pp4m
sorry if i write something wrong or so....but thats my opinion....
pp4m
I'm not gettin what you're trying to say...
Babies are sinless insofar as when they are born they have not committed any sins of their own volition. However, since they are fully human and possess a full human nature, they are born with the end result of Adam's sin, i.e. they are born with a corruptible nature that is prone to sin. It is this corruptibility that is cleansed at baptism and is renewed every time we sin, repent and confess. Is it possible to lead a sinless life? Yes. We have examples of it in the lives of the Saints: we have the most Holy Theotokos, St. John the Baptist as well as St. Bishoy (often referred to as the righteous and perfect man). How were these people sinless? They submitted themselves fully to the will of God. That is the only way we can be sinless in this life.
I recommend reading St. Athanasius's "On the Incarnation", and researching Original Sin vs Ancestral sin. I also recommend St John Chrysostom's homily of Romans, especially chapter 6.
I know that it says in Ps. 50(51) "I was brought forth in iniquity and in sin my mother conceived me." But it is "in sin", "in iniquity", i.e. in a world where death and sin reign.
I mean if we believed sin was inherited- Jesus would have sin because of His mother! There is no evidence in scripture or tradition to say this so called inheritance of the original sin was from the father! If anything, the famously quoted verse in Psalms suggests its the mother! If so, we are going to have to believe that Virgin Mary was also immaculately conceived.
I think I am right. Please correct me Anglican or anyone.
PP4m
so if the holy spirut didnt so he would have the sin of adam...
a) Its wrong to say that since the child is not yet born, they are somehow spiritually different than a child that is born. That's not true. Its a child since the fusion of a sperm and egg in the mother's womb; to the extent, we do not believe in abortion at the stage where the embryo is just a few cells growing
b) The baby in its mother's womb WILL partake of all the nutrients the mother partakes of (spiritual & physical).
c) During baptism, the mother takes responsibility for the baby's faith. She denounces satan on behalf of her baby; she takes the oath the baby should take on her baby's behalf.
d) The baby IS receiving the Holy Body & Blood of Christ. It IS having Holy Communion. What happens is after its born, after 40 days, it is baptised and can have communion afterwards. It DID have communion BEFORE it was baptised (in its mother's womb), but after being born it is now subjected to the Church sacremants in full which, in the Orthodox Church, still adhere to rituals/traditions etc from the Old Testament.
Put it this way: If a baby dies in its mother's womb, say whilst she was giving birth, and the baby DID have communion (via its mother's faith) , for me, this baby will go to Heaven. It was baptised in its mother's womb WITH the mother's faith. Its with the mother's faith that we baptise our children in the Coptic CHurch. I didnt know anything about God, but i was baptised at 40 days after my birth.
What do u think??
Also, if my topics were useless, as Maged says, how comes this topic has nearly 500 hits????
so if the holy spirut didnt so he would have the sin of adam...
For starters, I was being hypothetical. That is to say I was trying to think what would have happen "if we believed" in something we know not to be true.
Again I stress, inheritance of sin is not believed by our Church, but the inheritance of the corruptible nature. That is the potential for sin. Most certainly Christ Jesus inherited this, because if He didn't, He would not be able to redeem us!
Again you fall into a heresy, something in the magnitude of the Apollinarians. He believed the union of full Divinity and humanity in one person absurdity- in effect "nature" and "person" for him was the same. He also thought that if the Savior inherited the rational soul common to mankind, that he would have the possibility of sin and be determined to do so (this is the centre power of self-determination).
St. Gregory, Patriarch of COnstantinople wrote in his epistle against this saying, "If any one has put his trust in Him as a man without a human mind, he himself is devoid of mind and unworthy of salvation. For what He has not assumed He has not healed; it is what is united to His Deity that is saved..."
St. Athanasius (wohoo! Go Egypt! :P) also wrote against this in Tomus ad Antiochenos: The Savior had not a body without a soul, nor without perception, now without a mind; for neither was it possile that, when the Lord became Man for us, his body should be without a mind; now was it body only; but soul also that attained salvation in the Word Himself and being truly Son of God, He, the same, became also firstborn among many brethren."
As you can see, Christ Jesus had to inherit everything that makes us who we are, i.e. our nature, our humanity in order to be our savior.
Put it this way: If a baby dies in its mother's womb, say whilst she was giving birth, and the baby DID have communion (via its mother's faith) , for me, this baby will go to Heaven.
salvation (i.e. going to heaven) is granted when follwing the sacrments of the church. 5 of the 7 are needed to be saved. yes they are baptised upon there mother's (or eshbeen's) faith. but here we're talking about phiscal baptism, or batsim in blood or in other ways....not being dead in his mother womb. yes that's true. and for females it's 80 days. but those days are not for the baby but for the mother to get back to normal. the baby after he/she is born, they can be baptised.
------
(lol....i just found out who's QT_PA_2T.....)
Most certainly Christ Jesus inherited this, because if He didn't, He would not be able to redeem us!
As you can see, Christ Jesus had to inherit everything that makes us who we are, i.e. our nature, our humanity in order to be our savior.
please someone correct me if am wrong but isn't that inheritence of the sin of Adam, death, only happends - take effact - apply to us when we actually get to die. so yes we were born with the corruptable nature....but we wont take it in affect except when we actually die. so if we're living, ther would be nothing to worry about it.
Christ on the other hand was incorruptable.....for He went into hedes but He was not corrupted by it but crushed death by His own.
Iqbal, John......please read.
We are told that the Incarnate Word was like unto us in everything save sin.
As we have seen several times here, our Church does not believe in the Augustinian version of original sin (or at least in what is popularly assumed to be that); i.e. we not not believe that our human nature is corrupted because we inherit the sin of Adam. We inherit the effects of the sin of Adam upon the world, and the weakening of our human nature as a result; we would say that we are made in the image of God, but that image is marred by the effects of sin. Through the process of Theosis we can redeem that image - that is through living the Christian life in the Church.
The Incarnate Word's human nature was perfectly in the image of the Father - He and the Father were one, and he who saw the Son, saw the Father. Therefore Christ's human nature, being united with His Divine nature, was the model of what we are meant to be, and what we have the assurance from Him that we shall be when we are in Him and He in us.
In possessing the real fulness of our human nature, unmarred by sin, Our Lord shows us what we can aspire to through Him. By being sinless and yet being put to death unjustly, He broke the hold that death and Satan had established on us; Satan overreached himself in trying to claim to the inheritance of death one who possessed no sin.
These are, of course, deep matters, and I have tried to give the understanding of them I have been taught - but welcome correction, clarification and addition.
In Christ,
John
I allude to the same quotes most explicit of which is from St. Gregory: For what He has not assumed He has not healed; it is what is united to His Deity that is saved..."
If he does not inherit whatever we have from Adam, we should not be able to trust in Him. St Athanasius in De Icnarnate showed how He died like us, but His Divinity did not allow Him to see corruption.
I need to rush, but it cannot be said that Christ was born without anything we haven't been born with. For if He did, how could we trust in Him who wasn't tempted (Yes, the Devil tried, but Jesus would have cheated if He did not have a corruptible nature).
That wasn't eloquent, but I hope this serves its purpose.
I do understand what you are saying, but the concept of sin it incorporates is not how the Church has understood this matter. and and also and this, and another, On 10 May 1973, Pope Shenouda III and Pope Paul VI of Rome signed a common declaration which included the following (emphasis added by me): Pope Shenouda III in his book Words of Spiritual Benefit volume II (1989) wrote: In his The Divinity of Christ (1989), His Holiness writes: That seems a pretty conclusive list of evidences to me, but, of course, I may be missing something. But I suspect that you may be operating from the Roman Catholic, or Augustinian concept of Original Sin. The Orthodox concept of human nature is that, unmarred by the effects of sin, we are made in God's image; the Incarnate Word, being of one substance with the Father, was, indeed, in His image, and His human nature was perfect - and makes our marred nature perfect. If He had been marred by sin, He could not have redeemed us, because He would have been subject to the penalty of sin, which is death, and He could no more have risen from the dead than we can. That is what St. Gregory means when he writes about what is assumed and what is healed.
As I say, I may understand this wrongly, but I merely follow the teachings of the Church as I have been taught them.
In Christ,
John
Note: I say corruptible i.e. potential to sin, or to corrupt; not corrupted i.e. already sinned etc.
1 Pet 2:22 doesn't help, it further says He committed no sin. i.e. He wasn't corrupted.
I am not saying that Christ had to sin in order to save us. In fact, I am saying the opposite. That He had to be able to sin, to help us who also are able to sin. And because He used His humanity not to sin, that He proved that with grace that we also can be like Him, and not sin.
I end with the quote from St. Gregory: For what He has not assumed He has not healed; it is what is united to His Deity that is saved..."
This does not make it imminent that Jesus had to have sin. In fact He assumed sin for us, but He never committed them.
In Christ,
John
let's be clear here:
Does a baby who has had communion in her mother's womb (from the mother going to mass) go to heaven if she/he dies during birth complications?
YES OR NO?
The baby was not baptised, yet HAS received communion.