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Theotokoc

EnoughEnough
edited December 1969 in Faith Issues
1 question ive been wondering about... im not sure about the answer neither has it been mentioned in church at all as far as i know...
Is St. Mary sinless... perfect??? i dont think so right??? no one is Perfect but God alone right?
clarification needed please and thank u
God Bless,
Enough

Comments

  • Unknown
    The Blessed Virgin was born with the same fallen nature as we all are, and as such was imperfect and in need of salvation from the binding power of sin and death.

    However, by the grace of God, and Her obedience to His will, She never sinned in word, in deed or in thought.
  • Anglican
    Dear Enough,

    What Orthodox11 write is so. There is another thread here (St Mary's Sinlessness, and the RCC dogma of Immaculate Conception) on this topic which goes into more detail.

    It is necessary to distinguish between the Roman Catholic doctrine of the Immaculate Conception, which states that the Most Holy and Most Blessed Theotokos was born without sin, and the universal teaching of the Church from ancient times that she was fully human (and therefore inherited the effects of sin upon our weakened nature), but lived her blessed life without sinning; that is why she is the Queen of our Race. She is an example to us all of the virtues of perfect obedience - and why we ask for Her intercession for our sinful selves.

    In Christ,

    John
  • EnoughEnough
    thanks a lot guys that makes a lot of sense... really appreciate ur clarification.
    May our Mother continue to pray for us sinners at all times.
    God Bless,
    Enough
  • Amoussa01
    Dear Anglian and orthodox11, i hope you dont mind but i reused what you wrote in another website. You guys worded it so well that i didnt think i could have done a better job myself. Thanks again. ;D

    Tony
  • Anglican
    Dear Tony,


    Far from minding, I am honoured to think that what I wrote was useful to you and others. I am glad it helped. :)

    In Christ,

    Anglian
  • byrdele
    Hi there!

    Protestants accuse those of us who believe in the Assumption of Mary of not having any mention about it before the 5th/6th century. However, I read somewhere that there is a mention from about the 1st c maybe? and that it is in the Coptic Church. Is this true?

    Thanks, guys.

    God bless

    byrdele
  • Unknown
    [quote author=byrdele link=topic=5450.msg73420#msg73420 date=1182941734]
    Protestants accuse those of us who believe in the Assumption of Mary of not having any mention about it before the 5th/6th century. However, I read somewhere that there is a mention from about the 1st c maybe? and that it is in the Coptic Church. Is this true?


    I think the very early document you refer to is probably the Protoevangelion of St. James. This document does not detail the death and assumption of the holy Mother, but about Her birth and upbringing in the Temple.

    As for the assumption, the earliest surviving documents date from around the 5th century, surviving only in Ge'ez and Syriac, but the originals are thought to date from as early as the 3rd century.
  • byrdele
    Thanks for the info, Orthodox. Btw, I might have trailed off topic in a few forums. For that I am sorry. I am now more aware and will stick to the topics.

    thanks.

    God bless.

    byrdele
  • Anglican
    Dear Orthodox11,

    Thank you for the information. For those interested in an accessible modern text, The Lost Gospel of Mary by Frederica Mathewes-Green (Paraclete Press, 2007) is recommended.

    It has three texts:
    The Protevangelium of St. James which dates from c. 150 A.D.
    The Rylands Papyrus, which is 2nd century A.D.
    The Annunciation Hymn, which was written down c. 520 A.D.

    But it is worth stressing that these are the dates for the earliest surviving texts, which only gives the date before which these things were written; it is highly likely that they were written many years before, and that they go right back to the oral tradition of Apostolic times.

    The so-called Gospel of Mary is a very beautiful story, and can be read by all Christians with advantage.

    In Christ,

    Anglian
  • byrdele
    Dear Anglian,

    Thanks for all the info. I might look into some of them after we come back from Ireland, where I intend on being turned upside down to kiss the Blarney Stone. Just gotta do it! :)

    Everyone here have a lovely week.

    God bless,

    byrdele
  • Anglican
    Dear byrdele,

    Enjoy your time in Ireland - where 7 Coptic Monks once brought Christianity to these shores! :)

    In Christ,

    Anglian
  • stgeorgebrooklyn23stgeorgebrooklyn23
    oh thanks for recomending that book, ill be reading it soon. And yea, as everybody said she was born with the same nature/sin.. but the Catholic church believes that she was born sinless....
  • Anglican
    Indeed, that is what the Catholics believe, but that is because of the doctrine of Original Sin. If you believe that our very nature is corrupted by the Fall, then the Blessed and Most Holy Theotokos can only be sinless by being born without sin. Since this is not the Orthodox concept of sin, we have no need to argue for such a thing.

    Indeed, in many ways, it is more honour to the Virgin that despite having our nature, she lived her whole life without sin; what an example to us all.

    In Christ,

    Anglian
  • stgeorgebrooklyn23stgeorgebrooklyn23
    oh really? i didnt know that the virgin Mary lived her WHOLE life without sin. Intresting  :)
  • Anglican
    Dear He Wept,

    Yes, indeed.

    When you remember that the Church teaches that sin is disobedience to the will of God, the Most Holy and Blessed Theotokos was always totally obedient to Him. She submitted herself to the role of the Theotokos, despite the temporary shame that brought on her when there were those who saw her as an unmarried mother; indeed, St. Joseph himself had to be reassured by the Angel of the Lord. This she bore for us because she was obedient to God's will.

    Then, she had the agony of seeing her Son crucified and, seemingly, die in agony; to this too she submitted in obedience to God's will. And to think how often we complain in our daily lives about things going a little wrong! What an example she is to us all.

    One of the other things she shows is how wrong are those who say that there is no place for women in the Church; she holds a place more honoured than any human being there has ever been, even higher than the Apostles.

    In Christ,

    Anglian

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