Thank you so much for taking the time to tell us properly about what it is that the Roman Catholic Church actually believes about these matters; it is so important that we communicate in this way, and I am grateful to you for taking the time.
On the Eucharist, the following might be helpful. In his Mystagogical Catechesis St. Cyril of Jerusalem emphasises that Christ became incarnate so that humankind might be able to receive him. In MC 4:7 he states that the Holy Spirit makes Christ's body and blood present in the Eucharist so that humanity may become the 'sanctuary of God'.
In this he shows the extent to which he was influenced by Alexandrian theology in which, as the editor of his works comments:
the apprehension of the Logos through teaching and contemplation was not unrelated to sacramental communion, but provided a wider context.
For St. Cyril of Jerusalem, as for his great Alexandrian namesake later, Christ came to make us one with God through physical means which provide access to Christ and to God through Christ. The believer is assimilated into Christ through the sacraments as a means of salvation. As St. Cyril of Alexandria writes in his Commentary on St. John:
When we taste of it, we have that life in ourselves since we too are united (synenoumenoi) with the flesh of the Saviour in the same way that the flesh is united with the Word that dwelt within it.
So for the Orthodox the Eucharist is a major part of our road to Theosis. We do not, as has been said previously, try to define how the bread and wine become the body and blood, that is not needful, nor yet possible; but the Eucharistic feast is where we encounter Christ, and through Him the Trinity.
On confession, like you we believe we are confessing to God and receiving (we hope) absolution from him through our Father of Confession.
It is well to recall how much we have in common with the Roman Catholics. That is not, of course, to ignore the very real differences, but conversations such as these play their own small part in helping us to realise how much can be gained by dialogue; and so much more, for sure, than through confrontation.
Yes, dialogue is so much better than confrontation. Not only does confrontation not usually work, but it becomes a war and then it is so distasteful. Christ said that people will know we are Christians by the love we have for one another, and I can say that I truly love everyone on this website. I pray for people on this website and especially for the Coptic Church when I am praying for all Christians who are under persecution.
I was just on the Catholic website and got a very good answer to a question I asked. However, reading through the post, there was a "once saved always saved... works are only evidence of faith, not one with faith" person pounding on everyone. I was going to point out to him that you don't throw pearls before swine, not that we on that site or anyone else is swine, but where you are not being heard you just sometimes have to let it be, but decided not to. I really cannot stand that. I don't mind him expressing his views, and even if he is on the site to "plant a seed", that is fine with me. But to pound the seed into the ground so deeply that the water can't reach it, and then try to water it to death - well, that does not result in a harvest and I really cannot stand that kind of confrontation. But then I thought that with all that is going on right now, and a lot is going on, I really don't need the flames turned toward me.
I refuse to do that. It is the Holy Spirit Who converts, not man. We are only the catalysts and are one of many catalysts (Bible, Church teachings, Sacraments, hearing God through others, trusting that He gave us common sense and gut instinct for a reason [as long as the latter three are in accord with His teachings]). I know that our Sacraments differ somewhat from yours, I was reading about the application of myron which is not something we do, but still we all know that it is the Holy Spirit who leads us and not someone pounding his point into our brains.
That is why I am getting to prefer your website to the Catholic one. I like to read the Catholic one, of course, I am Catholic and I can get answers to questions and give answers to questions and learn so much more about my faith. But I get irritated with the Protestants - not the ones who are on our website to share and to learn, but the ones who get on and pummel us, thinking that THEY will convert us. It is prideful and that is sinful. Whew. OK, I have just vented.
I know what you mean. Hijacking Christian forums by agnostics, athiests, fundamentalists, lefties, and people of different faiths who have little regard to the faith the forum is representing, has become really common. I went to some Protestant forums, and they were very spiteful against Catholics, against anyone that doesn't believe in evolution, againist anyone who doesn't feel the same way as them about issues such as sexuality etc. Thank God it hasn't happened here.
The Internet can be a great blessing when, with sites like this, it allows us to converse with fellow Christians from across the globe, gives us access to articles on the Faith, and allows us to find out what it is we have in common. This last need not lead to a kind of syncretism; you and I recognise where our Churches are not in agreement on points of doctrine; but we also recognise a faithful witness, each in its own way, to the Lord. Our hierarchs can talk to each other, and they can make some progress towards showing the world who we serve by their attitude to each other. We can also stay faithful to the way in which our respective Churches have developed and understand the One Faith once given for all.
But the Internet can also provide opportunities for those with their own internal doubts and tensions to reflect them outward in conflict with others; and this seems to be something very personal with the individual, and we must respect that, even whilst feeling at another level that we wish this person would indeed stop trying to beat us over the head with a metaphorical mallet. The wish to 'convert' us is, in its own way touching! If Protestants who feel the urge to do that would stop for a few minutes and read what is on sites such as this, they might realise that they are in the presence of a work which the Holy Spirit started two millennia ago. I am happy for them that they feel the the Holy Spirit is at work in their Church, founded a century or two ago, or even nearer to our time, but their mission filed should be to those where the Spirit seeks tools for His work in areas where the Faith has not been preached.
You are very kind, Anglian, a bit more tolerant than me and I thought I was fairly tolerant! :)
You're right. At least they are trying to do God's will, and actually, it's not up to me to say they are not. They care in their own way. But I know I cannot deal with it. I can deal with someone challenging me - I got used to it in the Bible Belt (for those who don't know, the Bible Belt is a mainly Baptist part of the US, in the South, and although the South, not known previously for its tolerance toward people of different faiths, races and ethnic backgrounds has become a wonderful place for women and minorities, was vehemently anti-Catholic (and Jewish, Orthodox if there were any Orthodox, etc) - there people would sometimes throw all sorts of accusations - we had a neighbor who, when she saw us coming home from the busstop, would come out to her doorway and scream at us while holding her Bible that we were going to hell. We'd just laugh at her. My Dad found out and stopped her. But we had to learn, being a minority, that things like that would happen and we had to be ready to defend our faith. But we could not stop the anger in some of the other people. Not all American Southerners are like this, but a few, which is a few too many, are. It's actually a great place to live now. But I digress. I can defend my faith fine, even against anger, but I just don't put myself in the way of the anger, such as on the forums.
Anyway, I think I mentioned that I'm going to go silent for a while and just read. I am doing far too much talking and far too little learning.
There is, indeed, something shocking about Christians behaving with intolerance towards other Christians. But of course this is a difficult one. St. Athanasius was pretty intolerant of Arians, and St. Cyril was equally tough on Nestorians, and there are those who would point to such examples as justifying the sort of thing you described; but I think there is a difference.
St. Cyril told Patriarch Nestorius that he would never find anyone who loved him as much as he did; in true Christian fashion, it was the sin and not the sinner which St. Cyril hated. Of course we, like you, think that our Church is the one true Church, but we can now talk about the differences - and the similarities, and we do not persecute each other any more. In this secular world where the major threats are from an aggressive secular ideology - and, dare I say, an expansionist Islam - we need to beware of making the mistake which our ancestors made back in the sixth and seventh centuries - of allowing our divisions to weaken us; look what happened to Christianity in the regions most effected by the schisms - ever since it has been under persecution and threat. Whatever divides us must not lead to a that happening elsewhere.
Comments
welcome back, hope Ireland was wonderful!
Thank you so much for taking the time to tell us properly about what it is that the Roman Catholic Church actually believes about these matters; it is so important that we communicate in this way, and I am grateful to you for taking the time.
On the Eucharist, the following might be helpful. In his Mystagogical Catechesis St. Cyril of Jerusalem emphasises that Christ became incarnate so that humankind might be able to receive him. In MC 4:7 he states that the Holy Spirit makes Christ's body and blood present in the Eucharist so that humanity may become the 'sanctuary of God'.
In this he shows the extent to which he was influenced by Alexandrian theology in which, as the editor of his works comments: For St. Cyril of Jerusalem, as for his great Alexandrian namesake later, Christ came to make us one with God through physical means which provide access to Christ and to God through Christ. The believer is assimilated into Christ through the sacraments as a means of salvation. As St. Cyril of Alexandria writes in his Commentary on St. John:
So for the Orthodox the Eucharist is a major part of our road to Theosis. We do not, as has been said previously, try to define how the bread and wine become the body and blood, that is not needful, nor yet possible; but the Eucharistic feast is where we encounter Christ, and through Him the Trinity.
On confession, like you we believe we are confessing to God and receiving (we hope) absolution from him through our Father of Confession.
It is well to recall how much we have in common with the Roman Catholics. That is not, of course, to ignore the very real differences, but conversations such as these play their own small part in helping us to realise how much can be gained by dialogue; and so much more, for sure, than through confrontation.
Many thanks for your contribution, byrdele,
In Christ,
Anglian
I was just on the Catholic website and got a very good answer to a question I asked. However, reading through the post, there was a "once saved always saved... works are only evidence of faith, not one with faith" person pounding on everyone. I was going to point out to him that you don't throw pearls before swine, not that we on that site or anyone else is swine, but where you are not being heard you just sometimes have to let it be, but decided not to. I really cannot stand that. I don't mind him expressing his views, and even if he is on the site to "plant a seed", that is fine with me. But to pound the seed into the ground so deeply that the water can't reach it, and then try to water it to death - well, that does not result in a harvest and I really cannot stand that kind of confrontation. But then I thought that with all that is going on right now, and a lot is going on, I really don't need the flames turned toward me.
I refuse to do that. It is the Holy Spirit Who converts, not man. We are only the catalysts and are one of many catalysts (Bible, Church teachings, Sacraments, hearing God through others, trusting that He gave us common sense and gut instinct for a reason [as long as the latter three are in accord with His teachings]). I know that our Sacraments differ somewhat from yours, I was reading about the application of myron which is not something we do, but still we all know that it is the Holy Spirit who leads us and not someone pounding his point into our brains.
That is why I am getting to prefer your website to the Catholic one. I like to read the Catholic one, of course, I am Catholic and I can get answers to questions and give answers to questions and learn so much more about my faith. But I get irritated with the Protestants - not the ones who are on our website to share and to learn, but the ones who get on and pummel us, thinking that THEY will convert us. It is prideful and that is sinful. Whew. OK, I have just vented.
God bless.
byrdele
Thank God it hasn't happened here.
I am in agreement with Thomas and yourself.
The Internet can be a great blessing when, with sites like this, it allows us to converse with fellow Christians from across the globe, gives us access to articles on the Faith, and allows us to find out what it is we have in common. This last need not lead to a kind of syncretism; you and I recognise where our Churches are not in agreement on points of doctrine; but we also recognise a faithful witness, each in its own way, to the Lord. Our hierarchs can talk to each other, and they can make some progress towards showing the world who we serve by their attitude to each other. We can also stay faithful to the way in which our respective Churches have developed and understand the One Faith once given for all.
But the Internet can also provide opportunities for those with their own internal doubts and tensions to reflect them outward in conflict with others; and this seems to be something very personal with the individual, and we must respect that, even whilst feeling at another level that we wish this person would indeed stop trying to beat us over the head with a metaphorical mallet. The wish to 'convert' us is, in its own way touching! If Protestants who feel the urge to do that would stop for a few minutes and read what is on sites such as this, they might realise that they are in the presence of a work which the Holy Spirit started two millennia ago. I am happy for them that they feel the the Holy Spirit is at work in their Church, founded a century or two ago, or even nearer to our time, but their mission filed should be to those where the Spirit seeks tools for His work in areas where the Faith has not been preached.
In Christ,
Anglian
You're right. At least they are trying to do God's will, and actually, it's not up to me to say they are not. They care in their own way. But I know I cannot deal with it. I can deal with someone challenging me - I got used to it in the Bible Belt (for those who don't know, the Bible Belt is a mainly Baptist part of the US, in the South, and although the South, not known previously for its tolerance toward people of different faiths, races and ethnic backgrounds has become a wonderful place for women and minorities, was vehemently anti-Catholic (and Jewish, Orthodox if there were any Orthodox, etc) - there people would sometimes throw all sorts of accusations - we had a neighbor who, when she saw us coming home from the busstop, would come out to her doorway and scream at us while holding her Bible that we were going to hell. We'd just laugh at her. My Dad found out and stopped her. But we had to learn, being a minority, that things like that would happen and we had to be ready to defend our faith. But we could not stop the anger in some of the other people. Not all American Southerners are like this, but a few, which is a few too many, are. It's actually a great place to live now. But I digress. I can defend my faith fine, even against anger, but I just don't put myself in the way of the anger, such as on the forums.
Anyway, I think I mentioned that I'm going to go silent for a while and just read. I am doing far too much talking and far too little learning.
God bless you, Anglian.
byrdele
There is, indeed, something shocking about Christians behaving with intolerance towards other Christians. But of course this is a difficult one. St. Athanasius was pretty intolerant of Arians, and St. Cyril was equally tough on Nestorians, and there are those who would point to such examples as justifying the sort of thing you described; but I think there is a difference.
St. Cyril told Patriarch Nestorius that he would never find anyone who loved him as much as he did; in true Christian fashion, it was the sin and not the sinner which St. Cyril hated. Of course we, like you, think that our Church is the one true Church, but we can now talk about the differences - and the similarities, and we do not persecute each other any more. In this secular world where the major threats are from an aggressive secular ideology - and, dare I say, an expansionist Islam - we need to beware of making the mistake which our ancestors made back in the sixth and seventh centuries - of allowing our divisions to weaken us; look what happened to Christianity in the regions most effected by the schisms - ever since it has been under persecution and threat. Whatever divides us must not lead to a that happening elsewhere.
I hope the reading and the thinking go well. :)
In Christ,
Anglian