[quote author=desertnurse link=topic=5513.msg73628#msg73628 date=1183249837] What is the role of Deacons liturgically and in the Coptic community?
Without attempting to answer the question itself, I would just like to point out that there is a tendency among those in the Coptic Church to use the term "deacon" in a broader sense than its original usage.
Therefore, those ordained to positions such as reader (anagnostis) or cantor (psaltis) are often casually referred to as deacons rather than their correct titles.
Strictly speaking, deacon refers to the lowest rank in the three-fold ministry that has existed since Apostolic times, but I just wanted to make you aware of this 'coloquial' usage since it means your question might well be interpreted in more than one way by posters here.
I wonder whether the Coptic usage is not based on that of the early Church, where, as you say, the title of Deacon referred to those in the first of the three orders; that is to a time before readers and cantors had yet emerged?
I agree with Orthodox11....just one thing thooo.... deaconship have 5 main ranks (can also be 6). if u are any of these 5/6 ranks ur a deacons. same as Priests as being Priests and Hegumens. and Bishops being Bishops, Metropolitens, and Archbishops.
Now i guess the link below provides many info about deacons. if not enough, i remeber some posts about this topic from before.
[quote author=Anglian link=topic=5513.msg73639#msg73639 date=1183272142] I wonder whether the Coptic usage is not based on that of the early Church, where, as you say, the title of Deacon referred to those in the first of the three orders; that is to a time before readers and cantors had yet emerged?
this goes back to what i said above. in the orignals church and as it says in the bible, there was only deacons, one full rank. but now that person had to be really good person to be. now with those rules after.....service would be very restricting to those who do want to and choose to take that blessing. so as the church always after her flock, fathers but ranks for people so every one can be granted this blessing.
[quote author=Anglian link=topic=5513.msg73639#msg73639 date=1183272142] I wonder whether the Coptic usage is not based on that of the early Church, where, as you say, the title of Deacon referred to those in the first of the three orders; that is to a time before readers and cantors had yet emerged?
From what I was told by a Coptic theologian friend of mine a while ago, Pope Cyril the V (please correct me if I'm wrong) made a decision to give the Deacon's vestments to those of the minor orders (such as anagnostis and psaltis, which, as you say, had not yet emerged in Apostolic times) and that since then the term Deacon, while still properly referring to those ordained to the first of the three orders (which is how it is used in the other Orthodox churches), became used also to describe the minor orders.
I am looking for a role. A role to fill, and one that is more deaconess than deacon. I want to feed the hungry, heal the sick, and cloth the needy. I have always felt a calling to this en devour, but am unsure how to put this into my relation with the Church and with God. I have always seen how the women of my church took care of those around them, and I suppose that was a big reason why I became a nurse. I know I am called to be a healer and to help those around me. I constantly fight within myself to be Gay and Out or to be celibate and open. You have no idea the struggle within me, the energy spent on this battle is over powering.
[quote author=desertnurse link=topic=5513.msg73651#msg73651 date=1183330647] I am looking for a role. A role to fill, and one that is more deaconess than deacon. I want to feed the hungry, heal the sick, and cloth the needy. I have always felt a calling to this en devour, but am unsure how to put this into my relation with the Church and with God. I have always seen how the women of my church took care of those around them, and I suppose that was a big reason why I became a nurse. I know I am called to be a healer and to help those around me. I constantly fight within myself to be Gay and Out or to be celibate and open. You have no idea the struggle within me, the energy spent on this battle is over powering.
easy on yourself.... for some reason i think you're looking at the scripture in a more of a letiral way. we have many, many saint who are saints, and are witnessed for but have never did any of what you're talking about. also being a deacon is a blessing that you get when you serve other (as the meaning of deacon). you wont get somthing back if u expect to or if you like just doing it for that (not in the meantime) .
you're life with Christ should not be give and get back...i think He gave you enough that you would never be able to give back as much.
You continue to inspire me! May God bless your endeavors, guide you through your trials.
The role that you are looking for is something required of us all as Christians. I would suggest you stop looking for a "role" per se, and just do what your heart tells you. An inclination to help others is a role unto itself; it has only to fully develop within you and become fruitful.
Know that you are not alone, but that the Devil is diligently at his work with each one. "Resist him, steadfast in the faith, knowing that the same sufferings are experienced by your brotherhood in the world" ( 1 Peter 5:9).
We all struggle with our own sins, each of us has our own weakness which we know clearly. Know that we can do all things through Christ who strengthens us (Philippians 4:13) and that "We must, through many tribulations, enter the Kingdom of God" (Acts 14:22).
You may very well seek service through any means, the ways are pretty much known and new ways are come up with by caring people such as yourself every day. I believe you said in a previous post you said you were going to visit a Coptic Orthodox church soon. While you are there, you should approach the priest and ask to sit and talk with him. Ask him for spiritual advice, guidance, and any questions you might have.
But simple services can be done without really going out of one's way such as smiling, holding a door for someone, encouraging someone, etc.
May God bless in your great Christian struggle that you have undergone, you yourself being like Moses, who, "By faith Moses, when he became of age, refused to be called the son of Pharaof's daughter, choosing rather to suffer affliction with the people of God rather than to enjoy the passing pleasures of sin, esteeming the reproach of Christ greater than the treasures in Egypt: for he looked to the reward" (Hebrews 11:24-26).
By the way, today is the feast of the martyrdom of St. Moses the Strong, here has a rather interesting life story which you may read here: http://www.copticchurch.net/synaxarium/10_24.html His life story gives a tremendous amount of hope to all of us who currently struggle as those saints once did.
From what I was told by a Coptic theologian friend of mine a while ago, Pope Cyril the V (please correct me if I'm wrong) made a decision to give the Deacon's vestments to those of the minor orders (such as anagnostis and psaltis, which, as you say, had not yet emerged in Apostolic times) and that since then the term Deacon, while still properly referring to those ordained to the first of the three orders (which is how it is used in the other Orthodox churches), became used also to describe the minor orders
Yes, your understanding is correct - many thanks for the additional information.
[quote author=desertnurse link=topic=5513.msg73651#msg73651 date=1183330647] I am looking for a role. A role to fill, and one that is more deaconess than deacon. I want to feed the hungry, heal the sick, and cloth the needy. I have always felt a calling to this en devour, but am unsure how to put this into my relation with the Church and with God. I have always seen how the women of my church took care of those around them, and I suppose that was a big reason why I became a nurse. I know I am called to be a healer and to help those around me. I constantly fight within myself to be Gay and Out or to be celibate and open. You have no idea the struggle within me, the energy spent on this battle is over powering.
Lord help me :-[ Taylor
A very moving post - and He will help you - as is best for you.
From inside the Church one dilemma is done away with immediately; if you were an Orthodox Christian you could be gay, but not 'out' if by that you mean not celibate. As we have discussed on the other thread, the Church condemns the sin and calls for repentance from the sinner, whom it loves and calls to its heart.
Like so many healers, you have a need for healing yourself; how often the Lord seems to work in this way; those in need of healing often have a greater capacity for empathy than those whose lives are little touched by such struggles themselves. In that sense, Taylor, a wider picture may emerge here for you; perhaps this is part of His way of guiding you to where you are needed? What you describe here, most movingly, is a vocation - a calling that is surely of God. Perhaps in it you will find your way - and a release from the struggle you describe?
In the end, obedience to His will is the best way. Where we will something, we act in our way, not His. Where we discern His will and follow it, we can be sure that that is the path of obedience. It is not easy, nor broad and strewn with palms; but it is where union with His will is to be found.
It seems to me, Taylor, that you are getting a very clear message; but, of course, Satan will not want you to receive it - for you would be breaking the hold of sin.
May you receive the strength to do His will - and the wisdom and humility to discern it aright.
(( When a person is baptized in the Orthodox Church, he or she is given a new name, always the name of a saint. Regardless of the name a person was born with, the person begins to use his saint's name as his own during Communion, to help indicate that through his baptism the person has begun his life anew. This saint becomes one's personal patron, and his saint's day is also celebrated as a personal holiday. ))
[quote author=desertnurse link=topic=5513.msg73764#msg73764 date=1183520107] This is groovy, is this true???
(( When a person is baptized in the Orthodox Church, he or she is given a new name, always the name of a saint. Regardless of the name a person was born with, the person begins to use his saint's name as his own during Communion, to help indicate that through his baptism the person has begun his life anew. This saint becomes one's personal patron, and his saint's day is also celebrated as a personal holiday. ))
yes taht is true. to add to it, at the end of that baptisee first liturgy, he/she/they is/are calebrated in a procession in the church after communion singing the hymn Eporo "O King of peace..." and than glorification hymn, "In the name of the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Spirit, the Holy and co-essential Trinity." with the new christian name, "Worthy, worthy, worthy, (name) the Christian.
Fascinating! Isn't that just grand! Is there a male counterpart to Deaconess, a part that is laity but still vocational? How do the lay members of the church live out their vocations and callings?
[quote author=desertnurse link=topic=5513.msg73803#msg73803 date=1183603453] Fascinating! Isn't that just grand! Is there a male counterpart to Deaconess, a part that is laity but still vocational? How do the lay members of the church live out their vocations and callings?
Taylor
am not sure if understand ur question rit but please clearfy more.
I think your curiosity regarding Christianity, more specifically Coptic Orthodoxy, is wonderful. I truly believe the Lord is knocking at your door and if you open, He will come in to dine with you.
We are all sinners at the end of the day, but there are sins with greater ramifications than others, as the Lord said.
Homosexuality is a sin - from Old Testament to New Testament. It is a serious sin, since it involves a lifestyle, as opposed to an occurrence. I'm sorry everyone so far has danced around this issue, but you sound like a mature young man who is not afraid to ask questions and hear answers.
I think at this stage, when you are curious and feeling the way you do, you need to seek the assistance and guidance of a priest (a "father of confession", as we call them, preferably an older one) who will refer you to God's word on the matter. This will be done in the strictest confidence and away from the masses. Set up a time and go pour your heart out. We all need to vent our frustration at some point. We all feel lost at times and as though we are going to burst.
Remember, you are not alone. The Lord is not testing you, but He is allowing you to be tested. It is your duty to meet the challenge and refuse Satan and his followers who want to ensure our downfall, including you, in this most serious manner. Whether any of us like it or not, we are all temples of the Holy Spirit, and as such, we must each be careful to constantly maintain our temple in good, clean, working order.
One of our famous saints, when facing great tribulation, was told, "The world is against you!". He replied, "And I am against the world." Even the Lord once said to His apostles, "For the ruler of this world (Satan) is coming, and he has nothing in Me." We must be like this also, since we were created in His holy image. We must struggle to be holy, just as our Father in heaven is holy. Satan has no power over us, unless we submit to him.
Please do not believe the world that tells you "people are born gay." This is rubbish. People are not 'born' liars, thieves, murderers or anything else. The Lord did not create us in sin. He created us in purity, since He is pure.
Your struggle will not be easy, but it will be much 'easier' if you are not ashamed to seek the assistance of a spiritual guide. I am very proud of you to have come so far.
I will pray for you, just as I will ask you to kindly pray for me and all your other brothers and sisters, that the Lord forgive us our sins, and He continue to enrich our lives and grant us hearts and minds bearing the fruits of repentance.
No one has danced around any issues, and I'm sure that if you took the time to read the thread 'Homosexuality and Orthodoxy', you would realize that. It is offensive that you would say something like that (as I'm sure others who have spoken on the topic would agree). Your post is in the wrong thread, and should have been placed in the aforementioned thread. I think you should, perhaps, take greater care in reading the posts of others and try to understand what people are saying instead of just blasting people for 'dancing around' a particular issue. I don't think there is a single person on here who has argued against the inherent sinfulness of homosexuality. What everyone has pointed out, however, is that such a predisposition in and of itself is not sinful, any more than being heterosexual is. How one deals with the temptations they face (i.e. whether they resist or cave in) is the issue. A person grappling with heterosexual lust is no different than a person grappling with homosexual lust. Lust is lust.
While God's original creation was pure, you seem to forget the Fall of mankind and the ensuing consequences, that is to say, the corruption and flaws that entered into our nature. As such, we are no longer born in incorruption but we are born, as the Psalmist says, 'in iniquity and in sin did [our] mother[s] bear [us]'. No one may be born with a particular sin but we are born with the potential to sin and some are predisposed to a particular flaw (be it homosexuality, alcoholism, smoking or what have you). This is an undeniable fact.
If you have taken offence to my posting and use of the phrase "dancing around the issue", then I apologise. On reflection, I may have chosen a different way of expressing this thought.
I can assure you as I wrote my posting, I was fully aware this topic was titled "Deacons". I still believe, though, Taylor made a comment on a very critical issue that needed (at least in my eyes) to be addressed above all else, and not (perhaps implicitly) avoided by referring to service, etc. I was unaware of another thread re homosexuality. I didn't see you or anyone else referring Taylor to this thread. If I had seen this, I most likely would not have made my posting.
In regards to your comment, "lust is lust," I respectfully disagree. If a man lusts after a woman, his sinful desire has the possibility of being corrected, i.e., he may, through spiritual guidance, discover he can, in fact, marry that woman, sanctify his union and channel his desires properly in love. There is no equivalent possibility or potential for this involving homosexuality.
Once again, I apologise if I offended you or anyone else, not the least of whom, Taylor.
[quote author=MIY link=topic=5513.msg74002#msg74002 date=1184030926] My friend, In regards to your comment, "lust is lust," I respectfully diagree. If a man lusts after a woman, his sinful desire has the possibility of being corrected, i.e., he may, through spiritual guidance, discover he can, in fact, marry that woman, sanctfy his union and channel his desires properly in love. There is no equivalent possibility or potential for this involving homosexuality.
hmmmmmmm.
i think I was the one who said Lust is Lust....but not in this topic thoo. i still back up what i said....but i wont talk about it here but in the right post.
It took me a while to realize I had misspoke in my previous post, and so I have fixed it accordingly. That being said:
[quote author=MIY link=topic=5513.msg74002#msg74002 date=1184030926] My friend, In regards to your comment, "lust is lust," I respectfully diagree. If a man lusts after a woman, his sinful desire has the possibility of being corrected, i.e., he may, through spiritual guidance, discover he can, in fact, marry that woman, sanctfy his union and channel his desires properly in love. There is no equivalent possibility or potential for this involving homosexuality.
Once again, I apologise if I offended you or anyone else, not the least of whom, Taylor.
As far as I know, lust is a sin, regardless of whether it is heterosexual lust or homosexual lust. What I think you may mean is that a heterosexual can go on to marry and have sex whereas that is not the case for the homosexual. That, I agree with. That is why, I would think, the cross of the homosexual, is a far larger one to bear than that of a heterosexual, and thus, should they bear it with God's grace, then their reward would be all the greater.
Now, I'm not sure I agree with the statement that ' a man lusts after a woman, his sinful desire has the possibility of being corrected, i.e., he may, through spiritual guidance, discover he can, in fact, marry that woman, sanctfy his union and channel his desires properly in love.' A relationship that has its foundation based on sin (i.e. lust) is, in my opinion, doomed to fail. There is a difference between lusting after a woman and being sexually attracted to one. It is important that one be spiritually as well as physically attracted to their future spouse, but that does not mean one should lust after them. Lust is a sin whether it be before marriage (for their potential spouse) or while one is married (for their spouse).
I'm sorry, I fail to understand, as you fail to explain, the supposed distinction you draw between lust and sexual attraction.
I don't wish to get bogged down in semantics with you, but "lust" may be loosely defined as an intense desire. It is possible to lust after money, power, life, etc. On that footing, it would not, strictly speaking, be wrong of us to have 'spiritual' lusts, e.g., an intense desire for forgiveness and mercy, etc.
Taking that definition, then, is it, as you describe, wrong for a man to have a 'lust' for his wife?
I believe the method we should employ to distinguish between 'good' and 'bad' lusts, involves prospective/introspective examination.
If our lust for a particular person or thing leads us to be all-consumed AND drives us away from our main goal, i.e., to attain eternal life, then that particular lust is bad. The Holy Bible has very clearly given us from cover to cover a "checklist" of what falls into this category. So, if my intense desire for a particular sensation, experience or human being becomes perpetual and I allow it to linger and grow untamed, then it is necessary for me to reassess my situation.
It is possible for me to meet someone and recognise they are sexually attractive. This is by no means a sin. What 'is' a sin, however, is for me to partake in the scenario described in the previous paragraph.
This brings me back to Taylor's posting, as well as mine.
Sexual desire for a person of the same sex holds no potential for the admirer other than eternal death, since there is no hope in it whatsoever. Sexual desire for a person of the opposite sex 'can' be channelled properly to a good end in the sacrament of marriage.
Intense (sexual) desires or "lusts" are not 'curable', but they can be: 1. brought under control, in the case of a single heterosexual person; 2. brought under control, in the case of a married person with their spouse; or 3. corrected, in the case of a homosexual, or sexually curious, person.
It is by no means an easy task for Taylor, or anyone else for that matter, but it 'is' achievable. That is why I said I would pray for Taylor, just as I asked him to pray for me and everyone else, since the struggle in any of the above three categories is usually extremely difficult and onerous, if one chooses to fend for themselves alone. In addition to prayer, I asked Taylor to take practical steps in his battle by seeking the assistance of a father of confession.
As St James the Apostle commands us, we ought to "pray for one another". Let's give it a try!
Kind regards, M
p.s. Taylor, don't give up, my friend! Do your bit, and the Lord will do His. After all, it's His promise, not mine! Just show Him you're serious in your intentions and efforts...
Sorry for getting side-tracked earlier...but you've probably already picked up by now that we Gypos are a bit of a passionate bunch at times, eh? or is that "all the time"? ;)
In any case, I would really like to take a stab at answering your questions re deacons, monks, etc., but I'm snowed under at work at the moment...D'oh!!
...but have no fear, I've found a much better resource than I could ever be in answering your questions. If you get a chance, please refer to his Holiness' book, "The Priesthood"; chapter four (4) specifically discusses the varying roles and responsibilities of different levels of ordained servants in the church.
[quote author=Κηφᾶς link=topic=5513.msg74004#msg74004 date=1184035323] [coptic]+ Iryny nem `hmot>[/coptic]
Now, I'm not sure I agree with the statement that ' a man lusts after a woman, his sinful desire has the possibility of being corrected, i.e., he may, through spiritual guidance, discover he can, in fact, marry that woman, sanctfy his union and channel his desires properly in love.' A relationship that has its foundation based on sin (i.e. lust) is, in my opinion, doomed to fail. There is a difference between lusting after a woman and being sexually attracted to one. It is important that one be spiritually as well as physically attracted to their future spouse, but that does not mean one should lust after them. Lust is a sin whether it be before marriage (for their potential spouse) or while one is married (for their spouse).
On the highlighted part, I have a question. Is it a sin to look at a woman and be attracted to her? I mean, just waking down the street and you see a woman and sexually attracted?
[quote author=desertnurse link=topic=5513.msg74252#msg74252 date=1184394394] Thank you so much for you support, it is such a blessing!!
OK, so back to deacons,
Are there lay official ministries just for males?
it depends on how you would define ministries
Can celibate men become deacons?
since there are 5 ranks of deaconship, the 4th one is a full deacon. a full deacon if ordained, can't get married again. soo if he's not married he can't. and if he is, he can't get married again after his wifes death. celibate people of the church are not really diffrent from the rest except if they are ordained monks.
What is the role of non-married men and women in the church?
as i said in the last sentanse, nothing diffrent other than if they are ordained monks, if male, and if a deaconess would just have more service responsibilties.
Are monks always ordained or are many lay?
if they are not ordained than they are just celibate members. nothing diffrent. a monk or a nun are basiclly dead to the world. when they are ordained, the pray upon them the prayer of the dead first.
Are monks always monastic or are some 'secular' (in society, working, eating with society, but still under vows).
see above. there is some monk-priests thoo that go and serve in churches. also Bishops are included because they are in fact monks.
Comments
If you click here, you can read an article by H.G. Bishop Mettaous on The Deaconate.
What is the role of Deacons liturgically and in the Coptic community?
Without attempting to answer the question itself, I would just like to point out that there is a tendency among those in the Coptic Church to use the term "deacon" in a broader sense than its original usage.
Therefore, those ordained to positions such as reader (anagnostis) or cantor (psaltis) are often casually referred to as deacons rather than their correct titles.
Strictly speaking, deacon refers to the lowest rank in the three-fold ministry that has existed since Apostolic times, but I just wanted to make you aware of this 'coloquial' usage since it means your question might well be interpreted in more than one way by posters here.
I wonder whether the Coptic usage is not based on that of the early Church, where, as you say, the title of Deacon referred to those in the first of the three orders; that is to a time before readers and cantors had yet emerged?
Do we know?
In Christ,
Anglian
deaconship have 5 main ranks (can also be 6). if u are any of these 5/6 ranks ur a deacons. same as Priests as being Priests and Hegumens. and Bishops being Bishops, Metropolitens, and Archbishops.
Now i guess the link below provides many info about deacons.
if not enough, i remeber some posts about this topic from before.
[quote author=Anglian link=topic=5513.msg73639#msg73639 date=1183272142]
I wonder whether the Coptic usage is not based on that of the early Church, where, as you say, the title of Deacon referred to those in the first of the three orders; that is to a time before readers and cantors had yet emerged?
this goes back to what i said above. in the orignals church and as it says in the bible, there was only deacons, one full rank. but now that person had to be really good person to be. now with those rules after.....service would be very restricting to those who do want to and choose to take that blessing. so as the church always after her flock, fathers but ranks for people so every one can be granted this blessing.
I wonder whether the Coptic usage is not based on that of the early Church, where, as you say, the title of Deacon referred to those in the first of the three orders; that is to a time before readers and cantors had yet emerged?
From what I was told by a Coptic theologian friend of mine a while ago, Pope Cyril the V (please correct me if I'm wrong) made a decision to give the Deacon's vestments to those of the minor orders (such as anagnostis and psaltis, which, as you say, had not yet emerged in Apostolic times) and that since then the term Deacon, while still properly referring to those ordained to the first of the three orders (which is how it is used in the other Orthodox churches), became used also to describe the minor orders.
Lord help me :-[
Taylor
I am looking for a role. A role to fill, and one that is more deaconess than deacon. I want to feed the hungry, heal the sick, and cloth the needy. I have always felt a calling to this en devour, but am unsure how to put this into my relation with the Church and with God. I have always seen how the women of my church took care of those around them, and I suppose that was a big reason why I became a nurse. I know I am called to be a healer and to help those around me. I constantly fight within myself to be Gay and Out or to be celibate and open. You have no idea the struggle within me, the energy spent on this battle is over powering.
easy on yourself....
for some reason i think you're looking at the scripture in a more of a letiral way. we have many, many saint who are saints, and are witnessed for but have never did any of what you're talking about.
also being a deacon is a blessing that you get when you serve other (as the meaning of deacon). you wont get somthing back if u expect to or if you like just doing it for that (not in the meantime) .
you're life with Christ should not be give and get back...i think He gave you enough that you would never be able to give back as much.
You continue to inspire me! May God bless your endeavors, guide you through your trials.
The role that you are looking for is something required of us all as Christians. I would suggest you stop looking for a "role" per se, and just do what your heart tells you. An inclination to help others is a role unto itself; it has only to fully develop within you and become fruitful.
God Bless,
Angelo
Know that you are not alone, but that the Devil is diligently at his work with each one. "Resist him, steadfast in the faith, knowing that the same sufferings are experienced by your brotherhood in the world" ( 1 Peter 5:9).
We all struggle with our own sins, each of us has our own weakness which we know clearly. Know that we can do all things through Christ who strengthens us (Philippians 4:13) and that "We must, through many tribulations, enter the Kingdom of God" (Acts 14:22).
You may very well seek service through any means, the ways are pretty much known and new ways are come up with by caring people such as yourself every day. I believe you said in a previous post you said you were going to visit a Coptic Orthodox church soon. While you are there, you should approach the priest and ask to sit and talk with him. Ask him for spiritual advice, guidance, and any questions you might have.
But simple services can be done without really going out of one's way such as smiling, holding a door for someone, encouraging someone, etc.
May God bless in your great Christian struggle that you have undergone, you yourself being like Moses, who, "By faith Moses, when he became of age, refused to be called the son of Pharaof's daughter, choosing rather to suffer affliction with the people of God rather than to enjoy the passing pleasures of sin, esteeming the reproach of Christ greater than the treasures in Egypt: for he looked to the reward" (Hebrews 11:24-26).
By the way, today is the feast of the martyrdom of St. Moses the Strong, here has a rather interesting life story which you may read here:
http://www.copticchurch.net/synaxarium/10_24.html
His life story gives a tremendous amount of hope to all of us who currently struggle as those saints once did.
In Christ,
Anglian
[quote author=desertnurse link=topic=5513.msg73651#msg73651 date=1183330647]
I am looking for a role. A role to fill, and one that is more deaconess than deacon. I want to feed the hungry, heal the sick, and cloth the needy. I have always felt a calling to this en devour, but am unsure how to put this into my relation with the Church and with God. I have always seen how the women of my church took care of those around them, and I suppose that was a big reason why I became a nurse. I know I am called to be a healer and to help those around me. I constantly fight within myself to be Gay and Out or to be celibate and open. You have no idea the struggle within me, the energy spent on this battle is over powering.
Lord help me :-[
Taylor
A very moving post - and He will help you - as is best for you.
From inside the Church one dilemma is done away with immediately; if you were an Orthodox Christian you could be gay, but not 'out' if by that you mean not celibate. As we have discussed on the other thread, the Church condemns the sin and calls for repentance from the sinner, whom it loves and calls to its heart.
Like so many healers, you have a need for healing yourself; how often the Lord seems to work in this way; those in need of healing often have a greater capacity for empathy than those whose lives are little touched by such struggles themselves. In that sense, Taylor, a wider picture may emerge here for you; perhaps this is part of His way of guiding you to where you are needed? What you describe here, most movingly, is a vocation - a calling that is surely of God. Perhaps in it you will find your way - and a release from the struggle you describe?
In the end, obedience to His will is the best way. Where we will something, we act in our way, not His. Where we discern His will and follow it, we can be sure that that is the path of obedience. It is not easy, nor broad and strewn with palms; but it is where union with His will is to be found.
It seems to me, Taylor, that you are getting a very clear message; but, of course, Satan will not want you to receive it - for you would be breaking the hold of sin.
May you receive the strength to do His will - and the wisdom and humility to discern it aright.
In Christ,
Anglian
Taylor
((
When a person is baptized in the Orthodox Church, he or she is given a new name, always the name of a saint. Regardless of the name a person was born with, the person begins to use his saint's name as his own during Communion, to help indicate that through his baptism the person has begun his life anew. This saint becomes one's personal patron, and his saint's day is also celebrated as a personal holiday.
))
Taylor
This is groovy, is this true???
((
When a person is baptized in the Orthodox Church, he or she is given a new name, always the name of a saint. Regardless of the name a person was born with, the person begins to use his saint's name as his own during Communion, to help indicate that through his baptism the person has begun his life anew. This saint becomes one's personal patron, and his saint's day is also celebrated as a personal holiday.
))
yes taht is true. to add to it, at the end of that baptisee first liturgy, he/she/they is/are calebrated in a procession in the church after communion singing the hymn Eporo "O King of peace..." and than glorification hymn, "In the name of the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Spirit, the Holy and co-essential Trinity."
with the new christian name, "Worthy, worthy, worthy, (name) the Christian.
Taylor
Fascinating! Isn't that just grand! Is there a male counterpart to Deaconess, a part that is laity but still vocational? How do the lay members of the church live out their vocations and callings?
Taylor
am not sure if understand ur question rit but please clearfy more.
I've read all your posts thus far on this topic.
I think your curiosity regarding Christianity, more specifically Coptic Orthodoxy, is wonderful. I truly believe the Lord is knocking at your door and if you open, He will come in to dine with you.
We are all sinners at the end of the day, but there are sins with greater ramifications than others, as the Lord said.
Homosexuality is a sin - from Old Testament to New Testament. It is a serious sin, since it involves a lifestyle, as opposed to an occurrence. I'm sorry everyone so far has danced around this issue, but you sound like a mature young man who is not afraid to ask questions and hear answers.
I think at this stage, when you are curious and feeling the way you do, you need to seek the assistance and guidance of a priest (a "father of confession", as we call them, preferably an older one) who will refer you to God's word on the matter. This will be done in the strictest confidence and away from the masses. Set up a time and go pour your heart out. We all need to vent our frustration at some point. We all feel lost at times and as though we are going to burst.
Remember, you are not alone. The Lord is not testing you, but He is allowing you to be tested. It is your duty to meet the challenge and refuse Satan and his followers who want to ensure our downfall, including you, in this most serious manner. Whether any of us like it or not, we are all temples of the Holy Spirit, and as such, we must each be careful to constantly maintain our temple in good, clean, working order.
One of our famous saints, when facing great tribulation, was told, "The world is against you!". He replied, "And I am against the world." Even the Lord once said to His apostles, "For the ruler of this world (Satan) is coming, and he has nothing in Me." We must be like this also, since we were created in His holy image. We must struggle to be holy, just as our Father in heaven is holy. Satan has no power over us, unless we submit to him.
Please do not believe the world that tells you "people are born gay." This is rubbish. People are not 'born' liars, thieves, murderers or anything else. The Lord did not create us in sin. He created us in purity, since He is pure.
Your struggle will not be easy, but it will be much 'easier' if you are not ashamed to seek the assistance of a spiritual guide. I am very proud of you to have come so far.
I will pray for you, just as I will ask you to kindly pray for me and all your other brothers and sisters, that the Lord forgive us our sins, and He continue to enrich our lives and grant us hearts and minds bearing the fruits of repentance.
Your friend,
M
No one has danced around any issues, and I'm sure that if you took the time to read the thread 'Homosexuality and Orthodoxy', you would realize that. It is offensive that you would say something like that (as I'm sure others who have spoken on the topic would agree). Your post is in the wrong thread, and should have been placed in the aforementioned thread. I think you should, perhaps, take greater care in reading the posts of others and try to understand what people are saying instead of just blasting people for 'dancing around' a particular issue. I don't think there is a single person on here who has argued against the inherent sinfulness of homosexuality. What everyone has pointed out, however, is that such a predisposition in and of itself is not sinful, any more than being heterosexual is. How one deals with the temptations they face (i.e. whether they resist or cave in) is the issue. A person grappling with heterosexual lust is no different than a person grappling with homosexual lust. Lust is lust.
While God's original creation was pure, you seem to forget the Fall of mankind and the ensuing consequences, that is to say, the corruption and flaws that entered into our nature. As such, we are no longer born in incorruption but we are born, as the Psalmist says, 'in iniquity and in sin did [our] mother[s] bear [us]'. No one may be born with a particular sin but we are born with the potential to sin and some are predisposed to a particular flaw (be it homosexuality, alcoholism, smoking or what have you). This is an undeniable fact.
If you have taken offence to my posting and use of the phrase "dancing around the issue", then I apologise. On reflection, I may have chosen a different way of expressing this thought.
I can assure you as I wrote my posting, I was fully aware this topic was titled "Deacons". I still believe, though, Taylor made a comment on a very critical issue that needed (at least in my eyes) to be addressed above all else, and not (perhaps implicitly) avoided by referring to service, etc. I was unaware of another thread re homosexuality. I didn't see you or anyone else referring Taylor to this thread. If I had seen this, I most likely would not have made my posting.
In regards to your comment, "lust is lust," I respectfully disagree. If a man lusts after a woman, his sinful desire has the possibility of being corrected, i.e., he may, through spiritual guidance, discover he can, in fact, marry that woman, sanctify his union and channel his desires properly in love. There is no equivalent possibility or potential for this involving homosexuality.
Once again, I apologise if I offended you or anyone else, not the least of whom, Taylor.
Kind regards,
M
My friend,
In regards to your comment, "lust is lust," I respectfully diagree. If a man lusts after a woman, his sinful desire has the possibility of being corrected, i.e., he may, through spiritual guidance, discover he can, in fact, marry that woman, sanctfy his union and channel his desires properly in love. There is no equivalent possibility or potential for this involving homosexuality.
hmmmmmmm.
i think I was the one who said Lust is Lust....but not in this topic thoo. i still back up what i said....but i wont talk about it here but in the right post.
It took me a while to realize I had misspoke in my previous post, and so I have fixed it accordingly. That being said:
[quote author=MIY link=topic=5513.msg74002#msg74002 date=1184030926]
My friend,
In regards to your comment, "lust is lust," I respectfully diagree. If a man lusts after a woman, his sinful desire has the possibility of being corrected, i.e., he may, through spiritual guidance, discover he can, in fact, marry that woman, sanctfy his union and channel his desires properly in love. There is no equivalent possibility or potential for this involving homosexuality.
Once again, I apologise if I offended you or anyone else, not the least of whom, Taylor.
As far as I know, lust is a sin, regardless of whether it is heterosexual lust or homosexual lust. What I think you may mean is that a heterosexual can go on to marry and have sex whereas that is not the case for the homosexual. That, I agree with. That is why, I would think, the cross of the homosexual, is a far larger one to bear than that of a heterosexual, and thus, should they bear it with God's grace, then their reward would be all the greater.
Now, I'm not sure I agree with the statement that ' a man lusts after a woman, his sinful desire has the possibility of being corrected, i.e., he may, through spiritual guidance, discover he can, in fact, marry that woman, sanctfy his union and channel his desires properly in love.' A relationship that has its foundation based on sin (i.e. lust) is, in my opinion, doomed to fail. There is a difference between lusting after a woman and being sexually attracted to one. It is important that one be spiritually as well as physically attracted to their future spouse, but that does not mean one should lust after them. Lust is a sin whether it be before marriage (for their potential spouse) or while one is married (for their spouse).
I don't wish to get bogged down in semantics with you, but "lust" may be loosely defined as an intense desire. It is possible to lust after money, power, life, etc. On that footing, it would not, strictly speaking, be wrong of us to have 'spiritual' lusts, e.g., an intense desire for forgiveness and mercy, etc.
Taking that definition, then, is it, as you describe, wrong for a man to have a 'lust' for his wife?
I believe the method we should employ to distinguish between 'good' and 'bad' lusts, involves prospective/introspective examination.
If our lust for a particular person or thing leads us to be all-consumed AND drives us away from our main goal, i.e., to attain eternal life, then that particular lust is bad. The Holy Bible has very clearly given us from cover to cover a "checklist" of what falls into this category. So, if my intense desire for a particular sensation, experience or human being becomes perpetual and I allow it to linger and grow untamed, then it is necessary for me to reassess my situation.
It is possible for me to meet someone and recognise they are sexually attractive. This is by no means a sin. What 'is' a sin, however, is for me to partake in the scenario described in the previous paragraph.
This brings me back to Taylor's posting, as well as mine.
Sexual desire for a person of the same sex holds no potential for the admirer other than eternal death, since there is no hope in it whatsoever. Sexual desire for a person of the opposite sex 'can' be channelled properly to a good end in the sacrament of marriage.
Intense (sexual) desires or "lusts" are not 'curable', but they can be:
1. brought under control, in the case of a single heterosexual person;
2. brought under control, in the case of a married person with their spouse; or
3. corrected, in the case of a homosexual, or sexually curious, person.
It is by no means an easy task for Taylor, or anyone else for that matter, but it 'is' achievable. That is why I said I would pray for Taylor, just as I asked him to pray for me and everyone else, since the struggle in any of the above three categories is usually extremely difficult and onerous, if one chooses to fend for themselves alone. In addition to prayer, I asked Taylor to take practical steps in his battle by seeking the assistance of a father of confession.
As St James the Apostle commands us, we ought to "pray for one another". Let's give it a try!
Kind regards,
M
p.s. Taylor, don't give up, my friend! Do your bit, and the Lord will do His. After all, it's His promise, not mine! Just show Him you're serious in your intentions and efforts...
OK, so back to deacons,
Are there lay official ministries just for males?
Can celibate men become deacons?
What is the role of non-married men and women in the church?
Are monks always ordained or are many lay?
Are monks always monastic or are some 'secular' (in society, working, eating with society, but still under vows).
Taylor
Sorry for getting side-tracked earlier...but you've probably already picked up by now that we Gypos are a bit of a passionate bunch at times, eh? or is that "all the time"? ;)
In any case, I would really like to take a stab at answering your questions re deacons, monks, etc., but I'm snowed under at work at the moment...D'oh!!
...but have no fear, I've found a much better resource than I could ever be in answering your questions. If you get a chance, please refer to his Holiness' book, "The Priesthood"; chapter four (4) specifically discusses the varying roles and responsibilities of different levels of ordained servants in the church.
Here is the link: http://tasbeha.org/content/hh_books/Priesthd/index.html
That book, and a whole heap of others by H.H., are available on the CopticChurch.net website.
Happy reading!! :o
Let us know how you go,
M
[coptic]+ Iryny nem `hmot>[/coptic]
Now, I'm not sure I agree with the statement that ' a man lusts after a woman, his sinful desire has the possibility of being corrected, i.e., he may, through spiritual guidance, discover he can, in fact, marry that woman, sanctfy his union and channel his desires properly in love.' A relationship that has its foundation based on sin (i.e. lust) is, in my opinion, doomed to fail. There is a difference between lusting after a woman and being sexually attracted to one. It is important that one be spiritually as well as physically attracted to their future spouse, but that does not mean one should lust after them. Lust is a sin whether it be before marriage (for their potential spouse) or while one is married (for their spouse).
On the highlighted part, I have a question. Is it a sin to look at a woman and be attracted to her? I mean, just waking down the street and you see a woman and sexually attracted?
Thank you so much for you support, it is such a blessing!!
OK, so back to deacons,
Are there lay official ministries just for males?
it depends on how you would define ministries since there are 5 ranks of deaconship, the 4th one is a full deacon. a full deacon if ordained, can't get married again. soo if he's not married he can't. and if he is, he can't get married again after his wifes death. celibate people of the church are not really diffrent from the rest except if they are ordained monks. as i said in the last sentanse, nothing diffrent other than if they are ordained monks, if male, and if a deaconess would just have more service responsibilties. if they are not ordained than they are just celibate members. nothing diffrent. a monk or a nun are basiclly dead to the world. when they are ordained, the pray upon them the prayer of the dead first. see above. there is some monk-priests thoo that go and serve in churches. also Bishops are included because they are in fact monks.
Rabena ma'ak,
M
That is an excellent question. Start a new post with that question!!
Taylor