I have been having a hard time understanding why sex before marriage is a very emphasized problem. And lately I am not too sure if I am going to be a virgin when I am married which sometimes I am fine with but others I feel like I would be ruining my life. I already know a few people in my church that aren't, not that I'm saying i should be like them, but they don't seem to think it is a big deal. Some advice would be pretty great because this is an issue I am worried about while being in high school and everything.
Comments
http://tasbeha.org/content/community/index.php?topic=3921.0
i think it explains what you are asking
think about this something 1 of my servants told me: evey time u have sex or kiss or somthing it is likeletting ur partner take a bite of fruit that u have. if u marry another person u letting them hhave bit from the same fruit.and most people dont want to bite from the same fruit that somebody else ate from. would u?
interesting......
honestly very funny hahahaaahahahaaa
i cant stop laughing i doint know why people are looking at me now hahahaaa
all i have to say all adultery fornicators etc will be judged and those a who are were and are of the faith and fall to them the judgement will be harder for those who are without THE TRUTH the fire of hell is reserved for what then to those who knew the truth and fell may GOD HAVE MERCY!
hahahaaahahahaaahahahaaahahahaaahahahaaahahahaaahahahaaahahahaaahahahaaahahahaaahahahaaahahahaaahahahaaahahahaaahahahaaahahahaaahahahaaahahahaaahahahaaahahahaaa ;D
honestly very funny hahahaaahahahaaa
i cant stop laughing i doint know why people are looking at me now hahahaaa
all i have to say all adultery fornicators etc will be judged and those a who are were and are of the faith and fall to them the judgement will be harder for those who are without THE TRUTH the fire of hell is reserved for what then to those who knew the truth and fell may GOD HAVE MERCY!
what in the world..... please speak in a more clear way so i can understand.
[quote author=katz903 link=topic=5582.msg74480#msg74480 date=1184801124]I have been having a hard time understanding why sex before marriage is a very emphasized problem.
Sex before marriage is, in very simple terms, adultery. This sin has been spoken about explicitly in the Bible and is one of the 10 commandments. Your body is not your own, and thus you have no right over it. As Chrysostom (if I recall correctly) said: 'Do I possess this body? No. It was given to me when I was born and it shall be taken from me when I die.' Your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit, how can you think of defiling this temple in such a manner? Furthermore, you are, through your baptism, a child of Christ's. On top of that, you partake of Communion on a regular basis, thus you have Christ in you and you are in Christ. You are thus a member of the Body of Christ. How can you, as a member of Christ's Body, defile His Body? Is Christ an adulterer? Does Christ fornicate? Certainly not! Then how can you?
hahahaaahahahaaahahahaaahahahaaahahahaaahahahaaahahahaaahahahaaahahahaaahahahaaahahahaaahahahaaahahahaaahahahaaahahahaaahahahaaahahahaaahahahaaahahahaaahahahaaa ;D
honestly very funny hahahaaahahahaaa
i cant stop laughing i doint know why people are looking at me now hahahaaa
all i have to say all adultery fornicators etc will be judged and those a who are were and are of the faith and fall to them the judgement will be harder for those who are without THE TRUTH the fire of hell is reserved for what then to those who knew the truth and fell may GOD HAVE MERCY!
[move]explanation please!!!![/move]
ok everyone out there my deepest apology really there wasnt that much to laugh about at least not for all u guys its just i was really out there laughing after makin some dump mistakes and yea
the reason i was laugghing was because i First thought then wrote in word more than 3-4 pges of stuff! and then as i pasted it in i closed the word without saving it the internet pg froze on me....so i lost everything i wrote and tried to expalain i was probably was sitting there for a couple of hrs then i started laughing.......
why the laugh well cause i did nt wanna be angry is one reason the other is
i just realised waht the tone of the question was and everything i had written was not what the questino asked for. atleast thats what i think
i had pulled out all reason and wisdiom and knowledge i have found/used for and against the sin of adultery from the bible the desert father etc but the question says
this person well already knows waht is and what isnt i mean come on people the person knows the truth???????????????
then he or she is basing it on other people waht other people have done or not heor she is trying to live thier faith as compared to other people?
what? who cares if ur friend is a virgin or not remember
[move]work out ur own salvation in fear and trembling[/move]
waht do u think ? what do u believe saying waht the question says makes me think that this person limits christ and his nature and everything else commiting fornication is like completey against God i mean its has no connectoin at all and if the person is not sure in what he/she want s to beilve in then please get that corrected.
the question to me sounds like wow is it alright if i have sex before marriage i KNOW I AM NOT MEANT TO
that to me people descirbes that the person is having fundmental confilcts with his entirty in belief and faith in our God
the better question would be
how can i run away from adultery what can i do i doint want to do this becuase the lord said so .......etc the question should be how to go about fasting waht books to read waht to get help on in confession
now that tells me that this person is with God not sitting on the fence so
it doesnt matter how much i say adultrey is wrong if the spirit has not first decided to stick with God and the truth the soul and the flesh will seek its desire but the war to sin or not will always be there wahts important is first we decide to make the choice which gives us the strength to stand up any time we fall.
those of those who have lost thier virginity are like people who painted a picture that doesnt make sense and is just doesnt represent the FULL picture that God has for example for particular scene these people have painted the sky green and the grass blue the trees black and the sun purple. GOD DIDnt make it like that so who are u with
these people who have lost thier virginity are also those to whom this chirstianity and religion is just an identity and a definition it does not fill thier its not a daily breath the do no see themselves as those who are people who are passing through this time as visitors not as those who stay. we egerly wait to be with our lord and we must seek him learn to take our mistakes and falls out and seek him but what is the point of saying that if one hasnt made up that mind first of all where do u stand.
i am sorry that by any way not clear thats the best i can do withot spending more time
basically i felt stupid to wirte all that when it didnt matter
i say go first lock ur self in ur room and pray then say waht u believe in disscuss with ur parents and then come bk here with the right question
if u decide ur r not one of those who sees himself as one who will pass this world soon to be with God but rather a person who lives in this world to its temporary desires and pleasures and its fame and wealth and so forth and God and his commandment is not the most perfect thing ur a to follow but u r to put boundaries on it as only a definition and identity in ur life then doint waste time here but if u r to sek God to the perfect then come and learn from words of wisdiom
may god be with u all
but as we all know......peer pressure and conformity kiks in significantly at this point in life and thus we shud not be placing judgements by saying "u dont know the difference between right and wrong" there is no such thing as common sense.......she is seeking advice and thus the churchs view is more than enough besides ppl's opinions.
we all contemplate on a number of issues perhaps not as serious as adultery but indeed we do
its only a question......
i know its crucial to be role models and demonstrate positive behaviour...but you cant deny fact that during your teens, young people are easily swayed by the set norms......
What I am going to tell you is from a secular view point. My friend, who is not Christian, "fell in love" with this girl about her age (19! we have grown up in this modern age, and I am in Australia btw). She was not a virgin. She did not think that pre-marital sex was wrong. But he, not being religious still had a very hard time (lots of tears and jealousy) that she has given part of herself to others. In his own words, he said, "it is like I can give her everything, but she can't...What is going to be special about our relationship..."
This friend was not Christian or Muslim etc. There was no religious upbringing that would have shaped a view that premarital sex is wrong. Yet he, had felt overwhelmed with this sense of insecurity.
Think about how your future husband or even those you court will feel- maybe "the one" is like the guy above- despite not being Coptic etc. he still can not live with the fact that you have given apart of yourself to others. That you two don't share something that you haven't shared with others.
In the West, sex is viewed completely as pleasure. In the East, sex is viewed as something abhorent and dirty. (O.K. that might be a bit exaggerated!)
Sex is sacred! You don't have to have a religion to believe that.
Now back to my friend, he lost a lot of weight with depression. He tried so hard to give her something no other guy could give her, because he felt that he wouldn't be able to compete- that despite the feelings he had for her, what will be special about it?
The girl has kept friends with her previous boyfriends, and they occasionally meet. My friend could not take it that they would still meet as if nothing happened. And it always felt that every time they meet that a relapse in events would transpire. Imagine the jealousy!
Now my friend went to a friend of his, who is a psychologist, with these problems one night. He slept over, but because he wanted intimacy or something, he kissed his friend on her lips while she slept. He realized it was wrong, and quickly left. This friendship is on the rocks so to speak.
Again I tell you this is not even marriage, they haven't even had intercourse, and so many upsetting feelings have come. If you won't get these feelings (which you will in some late stage), well the guy you really love might.
When he confided in me, I was shocked. I didn't realize that the Church had so much wisdom. It treats sex with the respect and sacredness it deserves. It is neither just for pleasure nor dirty. It is an expression of love and self-giving and union between a man and a woman that can also produce out of this love the miracle of life- a baby.
Please, think about that.
We don't make a big deal of it because at our age almost no one is a virgin anyway, but if you are young you have the opportunity to take advantage of the wisdom of your tradition.
with what u said before, that's ur own opinion. but the part above.......what do u mean no one in ur age is a virgin?!!!!
also which wisdom of which tradtion ur talking about?
also when u say u met a copt, does that mean you're a copt or not. and when i say a copt, i mean a coptic orthodox christian.
We don't make a big deal of it because at our age almost no one is a virgin anyway, but if you are young you have the opportunity to take advantage of the wisdom of your tradition. Save your curiosity for other things, like your education!
i respect u for being open and disclosing sumfin which is quite personal but u shudnt be justifying ur loss of virginity with well 'no one is virgin anyway'....that shud not be encouraging ppl to pursue sex b4 marriage or provide a excuse........but u do indeed raise a important point that at a young age you are curious and inquire about such things as katz is doing here but resisting the temptation will give u richer n sweeter rewards
I'm sad that our youth, at a tender age of 14, are doing these immoral things openly, and justifying them. It worries me deeply.
I think if someone sinned, its NO ONE's business... i mean, its personal. But the thing that bugs me the most is this:
They don't see it as wrong. They even justify their actions. How can this be? If they are Coptic, then surely testifying that soemthing is immoral and a sin is paramount.
it's when you're lving in the US society many things go wrong. especially when u lived in egypt for a long time and than came here. also most of the parents change.....which is a very sad thing.
[quote author=minagir link=topic=5582.msg75019#msg75019 date=1185981643]
it's when you're lving in the US society many things go wrong. especially when u lived in egypt for a long time and than came here. also most of the parents change.....which is a very sad thing.
What do you mean? What goes wrong? How is it people who are Coptic, are changing right from wrong, and wrong from right?? Americans do not even do this. THere are pious americans who are very virtuous, protestants, Catholics etc.. this is no excuse.
Christ came to die for our sins. If we change between right and wrong, and then say to ourselves: "Well, adultary and fornication are no longer wrong, because we don't feel that they are wrong, its only in the Egyptian mentality that they appear to be wrong. We are not in Egypt, so we abide by the culture of our host country," ,, then effectively we are saying that Christ's blood that was shed for our sins is no longer necessary because its not a sin. Its just an opinion. This is disgraceful.
the thing is that they don't change from right to wrong fully, but they change. what ur saying about abiding by the host country cluture is rit, but in the same tiime wrong.
people don't have much freedom in egypt, especially copts. so people come here, see the open door of freedom, and take advanage of it. they wouldn't fully change and do what's wrong, but they wouldn't care as much and would as other say it, live their lives.
from there everything changes. after kids are than not contralled as much, not raised rit, have to much freedom, away from church. and since all of that is happending, the devil fights every second to keep it that way.
You guys make it sound as though we Copts are so much greater than everybody else.
"You don't know the difference between right and wrong, and you are Coptic Orthodox." Oh yes, that's real encouraging. "If they are Coptic, then surely testifying that soemthing is immoral and a sin is paramount." Why can't you use "Christian" instead of Coptic/Copt? Try not to make us sound like we're all holy and what not. Because here's a news flash for ya... WE'RE ALL SINNERS... Copts are just as likely, if not more likely to commit sin than non-Copts. You're going to have to learn to live with it. "Abouna , FOR THEM, basically does the job of a pimp. Really." What the heck are you talking about? That's the most disrespectful thing I've heard. If you're going to play the blame game, than play it right. Abouna's not to blame in this case, it's those who choose to turn Abouna's work into sin who should be blamed.
I agree with the crux, however, of the argument. The "pimp" statement- I don't remember reading it, but that didn't make sense to me either.
I have been here for awhile, and it is only sparse and scarce posts that have the elitist view that you are angered by (And would be rightly so) if that was the case.
You only read few posts, and yet you had the audacity to say "you guys" in effectively trying to abase all those who presented rational views here. You want to channel criticism, then admonish your brother in love- and directly. And I am not sure what was the point of using sarcasm and being derogatory?
Secondly, in defense of not using Christian, but rather Coptic. I would personally have used Christian, but this does not mean anything unless he was being derogatory to non-Coptic Christians.
And yes, I agree with Fed up, however, that we aren't only holy and moral. But our Church Fathers and the sacraments of the Church equip us who are sincere (and I am not) in our deification to become holy as our Father is.
Please Fed up, don't be discouraged by some posts that show bigotry. I agree "you don't know the difference between right and wrong, and you are Coptic Orthodox" is quite condescending. Please guys, being Coptic Orthodox and acting as a Coptic Orthodox is different. And to think by saying you are Coptic Orthodox is indirectly being condescending to those of other Christians is still far-fetched.
I fail to see the problem with holding Copts to a higher standard. While some of the comments may have been inappropriate, that does not undermine that we should certainly hold ourselves to a stricter moral code of behaviour. Christ teaches us that: 'From everyone to whom much has been given, much will be required; and from the one to whom much has been entrusted, even more will be demanded.' (Luke 12:48). We, as Copts, have been given much. As Thomas has pointed out, we have the Church sacraments, we have the Church Tradition, we have the Church Fathers, we have the True Faith. It is our duty to uphold the teachings of the Apostles and to be a light to the world. We are ambassadors of Christ, we are His representatives here on Earth. As such, we most certainly must be held to a higher standard. We are not to come up with excuses to sin (such as the comment, 'well everyone else is doing it'). We are not to justify our sins. We are to mourn them. We are to keep them before our eyes at all times and know that they pain our Saviour.
As for your issue about using the term 'Copts' over 'Christians', the vast majority of people on this site are Coptic (not necessarily ethnically Coptic, but spiritually Coptic). As such, using the term 'Copts' as opposed to 'Christians' is a triviality.
Why can't you use "Christian" instead of Coptic/Copt?
becasue in our current world today, the word "Christian" doean't mean one thing. you have to much denomenations and sects that are now part of Christianity to differ.
another reason is that our church, coptic church, ahve tradition that is dafinitly diffrent than others. like we have the same faith of the other 5 oriental churchs, but we still diffrent in culture.
well.....u said it....copts, do to our faith and culture as egys, we're more likely to not commit sin. than if u seen anything else other than that (as we were seaking about), than u can live with it, NOT BY IT. well i have to agree with on this.
"They lose their values... YET, they are STILL part of the Church!?" What do you mean "they are still part of the church?" Please explain this to me, because what I think you're saying is that we should 'shun' them, or they should leave our church because they've fallen into a trap of sin (which I obviously disagree with).
"Oufff!! EH DA!! Im not blaming abouna at all. I SAID, and READ THE QUOTE: THE YOUTH TREAT ABOUNA LIKE A PIMP. Its sad. " lol, I did read the quote, and in fact in my last post I quoted it word for word, "Abouna , FOR THEM, basically does the job of a pimp. Really."
Doubting Thomas:
"You only read few posts, and yet you had the audacity to say "you guys" in effectively trying to abase all those who presented rational views here." Sorry, I don't mean to paint everyone with one brush... I didn't mean that.
"I have been here for awhile, and it is only sparse and scarce posts that have the elitist view that you are angered by (And would be rightly so) if that was the case." I think I've probably been here longer than you (on a different user name, but I stopped posting), and I've seen this a lot...
Κηφᾶς:
"that does not undermine that we should certainly hold ourselves to a stricter moral code of behaviour." I do believe as Copts we SHOULD hold ourselves to a stricter moral code, but I still don't think we should judge people by saying "Oh, they're Copts, they shouldn't do stuff like that." I am proud of being a Coptic Orthodox Christian, but I don't think that makes us better than other people. "We are ambassadors of Christ, we are His representatives here on Earth. As such, we most certainly must be held to a higher standard." I agree with that, but are there not other CHRISTIANS in the same boat as us?
minagir:
"becasue in our current world today, the word "Christian" doean't mean one thing. you have to much denomenations and sects that are now part of Christianity to differ." Does that mean you don't call yourself a Christian? When someone asks you what faith you are, your respond by saying "I'm a Copt" knowing that most likely they'll have no idea what the means? Christian is simply a follower of Christ, and I think that it really well known. I understand that you think it's losing it's meaning due to the watering down of the true faith, but I don't think that if you told someone you were Christian they would respond by saying "Oh but there's one sect in Christianity that...... etc. etc." I think they would understand you mean a follower of Christ. And if you really do think it's losing it's meaning, maybe we should show people through out actions rather than try to define it.
"well.....u said it....copts, do to our faith and culture as egys, we're more likely to not commit sin." I don't think being Egyptian has anything to do with it.
minagir:
"becasue in our current world today, the word "Christian" doean't mean one thing. you have to much denomenations and sects that are now part of Christianity to differ."
Does that mean you don't call yourself a Christian? When someone asks you what faith you are, your respond by saying "I'm a Copt" knowing that most likely they'll have no idea what the means? Christian is simply a follower of Christ, and I think that it really well known. I understand that you think it's losing it's meaning due to the watering down of the true faith, but I don't think that if you told someone you were Christian they would respond by saying "Oh but there's one sect in Christianity that...... etc. etc." I think they would understand you mean a follower of Christ. And if you really do think it's losing it's meaning, maybe we should show people through out actions rather than try to define it.
First i would say I am a 'Coptic Orthodox Christian' than like u said they wouldn't know....that's when u try identfy ur self to them.
the word 'follower of Christ' doesn't mean ur of His. Christ Himself verified that more than once in the bible.
actions......of course..that's the best thing. but through actions come words and that's when ppl ask. i don't go tell ppl for no reason i am COC...they ask when they see my actions are diffrent. and when that happends, i show tell them what i am, and how r we the true faith....in very short words. what do u mean.......we are the Copts, Egyptions. if cultural is part of our coptic church. i seggust u go back, ready our many mnay rites books and see how egypt part of our church.
I thought we were talking about who's more likely to sin? Being Egyptian makes us more likely to sin? I had no idea culture had ANYTHING to do with sin.
who said being egyption makes u more likly to sin. now ur confusing everything.
what was said is that do to our strict culture (that's if u know how lack of freedom in egypt) and to our faith as copts, we are less likly to sin. me and vassilios came to that conclusion comparing how most kids/ppl change when they, for example, leave egypt and come to the US or go another country that have more freedom.
You are probably and definitely right that you have been here longer than I have. I guess, I was just surprised that you were rather critical at a time when I thought it was not warranting- perhaps being more attenuated to this forum you would hold the more balanced view. I will concede that your view could be valid- but the posts subsequent to your post, I think presents soberly the fallacious overview perhaps of what you described and rather shown it to be isolated, or a little exaggerations or misunderstandings.
When we say Copts here instead of Christians, (though I personally use Christians more often), it is as someone noted, because it is often used ex changeably in the context of this selective forum.
Yes, Christ solemnly openly declared His Deity, yet His miracles and life attested to His Supreme Nature. This, perhaps, is a lesson for us? From what I understand, Christian was a derogatory label worn proudly by the afflicted, God praising Christians in Antioch and then beyond? Now it has a vast imagery depending on who you tell it to (I think). Some think Christians is perhaps analogous to bigots, and hypocrites. Others believe Christians are those beer drinking thugs in the West! Others think Christians as people who think they are morally superior. That they are lunatics. That they have abandoned science. Mystics. Superstitious. It is still a derogatory word- one that everyone knows is meant to perpetuate a strong sense of character, only to have been overwhelmed again and again of the reality of the narrow gate for the followers of Christ.
Does Coptic Orthodox Christian convey anything different- well it kind of stops you associating our group with other ideologies, but in the quality aspect, I don't think so. Perhaps, bigots is more emphasized due to our stern moral stance against abortion, homosexuality, female clergy etc. To some, this conservatism is rather appreciated.
The problem, however, with labels is that you don't receive one after seeing if you matched a complete profile. As such, Republicans can be quite Left so to speak.
But without labels, everything would be complicated again.
Is culture related to sin, of course it is. For instance, Sodom and Gomorrah, a culture of lust was destroyed, crippling two whole nations to the point of utter demolition. There was many that the Israelites were told to destroy, as they journeyed to the promise land. Does this mean racial superiority? Well, it does mean cultural superiority- but the value of a human remains the same. But as we have found out, any culture is imperfect, rather in reality it has strong and weak aspects.
Are other Christians on the same boat as Coptic Orthodox Christians. Well, I don't think Coptic Orthodox Christians are all on the same boat to start of with. And we have no grounds to say those in Communion with us are not on this hypothetical boat- in which I have no idea its boundaries and passengers are! Do people have the same values as us- well even Athiests would agree in some of moral teachings! Are other Christians held to a greater standard- well God is perfect, anything short is off the mark. That is for everyone! But when you admonish someone for failing the mark, you do so with your own clan- the ones who agrees with what this standard would entail. To admonish and be admonished by other Christians is too delicate and unreasonable, because uncertainty exist on what this standard is. You can't tell an athiest, "Don't steal that- God will judge you for it". That will go on deaf ears. Neither can you just tell a stranger, "you should give a tenth of your money to the Church." In this case, it is uncertain whether the stranger believes such, and thus it is incorrect for us to assume that all those who call themselves Christian can be indoctrinated as such.
Hey Fed up. How are you doing?
You are probably and definitely right that you have been here longer than I have. I guess, I was just surprised that you were rather critical at a time when I thought it was not warranting- perhaps being more attenuated to this forum you would hold the more balanced view. I will concede that your view could be valid- but the posts subsequent to your post, I think presents soberly the fallacious overview perhaps of what you described and rather shown it to be isolated, or a little exaggerations or misunderstandings.
When we say Copts here instead of Christians, (though I personally use Christians more often), it is as someone noted, because it is often used ex changeably in the context of this selective forum.
Yes, Christ solemnly openly declared His Deity, yet His miracles and life attested to His Supreme Nature. This, perhaps, is a lesson for us? From what I understand, Christian was a derogatory label worn proudly by the afflicted, God praising Christians in Antioch and then beyond? Now it has a vast imagery depending on who you tell it to (I think). Some think Christians is perhaps analogous to bigots, and hypocrites. Others believe Christians are those beer drinking thugs in the West! Others think Christians as people who think they are morally superior. That they are lunatics. That they have abandoned science. Mystics. Superstitious. It is still a derogatory word- one that everyone knows is meant to perpetuate a strong sense of character, only to have been overwhelmed again and again of the reality of the narrow gate for the followers of Christ.
Does Coptic Orthodox Christian convey anything different- well it kind of stops you associating our group with other ideologies, but in the quality aspect, I don't think so. Perhaps, bigots is more emphasized due to our stern moral stance against abortion, homosexuality, female clergy etc. To some, this conservatism is rather appreciated.
The problem, however, with labels is that you don't receive one after seeing if you matched a complete profile. As such, Republicans can be quite Left so to speak.
But without labels, everything would be complicated again.
Is culture related to sin, of course it is. For instance, Sodom and Gomorrah, a culture of lust was destroyed, crippling two whole nations to the point of utter demolition. There was many that the Israelites were told to destroy, as they journeyed to the promise land. Does this mean racial superiority? Well, it does mean cultural superiority- but the value of a human remains the same. But as we have found out, any culture is imperfect, rather in reality it has strong and weak aspects.
Are other Christians on the same boat as Coptic Orthodox Christians. Well, I don't think Coptic Orthodox Christians are all on the same boat to start of with. And we have no grounds to say those in Communion with us are not on this hypothetical boat- in which I have no idea its boundaries and passengers are! Do people have the same values as us- well even Athiests would agree in some of moral teachings! Are other Christians held to a greater standard- well God is perfect, anything short is off the mark. That is for everyone! But when you admonish someone for failing the mark, you do so with your own clan- the ones who agrees with what this standard would entail. To admonish and be admonished by other Christians is too delicate and unreasonable, because uncertainty exist on what this standard is. You can't tell an athiest, "Don't steal that- God will judge you for it". That will go on deaf ears. Neither can you just tell a stranger, "you should give a tenth of your money to the Church." In this case, it is uncertain whether the stranger believes such, and thus it is incorrect for us to assume that all those who call themselves Christian can be indoctrinated as such.
WoW.......