The story of the Assumption of St Mary to Heaven demonstrates that my understanding of Heaven is deficient, as I would have thought that flesh/corporeal body can not exist where celestial bodies/spirits ought?
Can someone assist me? Is this a mystery, should I accept that this metaphysical question, logic does not avail much?
Comments
Let's not forget Elijah and Enoch.
There's a difference here though.
Christ had already suffered death prior to His ascension, as had His Mother prior to Her assumption, and so both possess the transfigured body belonging to the resurrection.
Enoch, Elias and, according to tradition, St. John the Evangelist were all assumed prior to death. They will return to earth and die before they are resurrected and receive the transfigured body.
Could you point me to a source regarding the tradition of the 'pre-mortem' (if such a word exists) assumption of St. John the Evangelist. This is the first time I've heard of it.
[coptic]+ Iryny nem `hmot>[/coptic]
Could you point me to a source regarding the tradition of the 'pre-mortem' (if such a word exists) assumption of St. John the Evangelist. This is the first time I've heard of it.
i never heard about that either. but i think he's talking about that verse where Christ kind of tells the apostles that St. John wont die before He comes again (i.e.second coming). can't remeber which verse exactly but somone listed it before on a post and i search about it. and according to Fr. Tadros Yacoub, what Jesus said was a prophacy of St. John being the only apostle to die naturaly and not martyred as the rest of the disciples.
[coptic]+ Iryny nem `hmot>[/coptic]
Could you point me to a source regarding the tradition of the 'pre-mortem' (if such a word exists) assumption of St. John the Evangelist. This is the first time I've heard of it.
While I'm sure several sources exist, I'm afraid I don't know what they are. I'll try to remember to ask my priest on sunday; he'll probably know of a reference.
Thank you very much.
The only one who entered the “Heaven of Heavens” is our Lord, God and Saviour Jesus Christ. The assumption of the holy body of the Theotokos Virgin St. Mary is now in the Paradise. No one will entered the the Kimgdom of Heaven, including the Theotokos, except in the Day of Judgement.
Dear Orthodox 11,
The only one who entered the “Heaven of Heavens” is our Lord, God and Saviour Jesus Christ. The assumption of the holy body of the Theotokos Virgin St. Mary is now in the Paradise. No one will entered the the Kimgdom of Heaven, including the Theotokos, except in the Day of Judgement.
Enoch and Elijah are in fact in heaven.
atleast Elijah where it specifcly say in the bible.
Enoch and Elijah are in fact in heaven.
atleast Elijah where it specifcly say in the bible.
Whereas the Fathers of the Church have ascribed very specific language to different concepts, the Bible does not do this. The Bible will often use a single word to describe a number of different things, whereas dogmatic theology - for convenience's sake - will limit it to a single idea.
If you are referring to the verse that says Elijah was taken into heaven, this simply means he was carried off into the sky (heaven=sky). It says little, if anything, about his current state, and certainly does not negate the Paradise/Heaven distinction Safaa is referring to.
[quote author=minagir link=topic=5661.msg75536#msg75536 date=1187209754]
Enoch and Elijah are in fact in heaven.
atleast Elijah where it specifcly say in the bible.
Whereas the Fathers of the Church have ascribed very specific language to different concepts, the Bible does not do this. The Bible will often use a single word to describe a number of different things, whereas dogmatic theology - for convenience's sake - will limit it to a single idea.
If you are referring to the verse that says Elijah was taken into heaven, this simply means he was carried off into the sky (heaven=sky). It says little, if anything, about his current state, and certainly does not negate the Paradise/Heaven distinction Safaa is referring to.
so where do u consider them now....
Mina,
Check out the Elijah and Anok thread. It was discussed there before.
Check out the Elijah and Anok thread. It was discussed there before.
thank you.
but i don't think we got to a final answer. the way i think of it, supporting what u said in the other post, sinsse they are still in their human body, alive, why couldn't they enter heaven. Paradise was closed and heaven was of limits for anyone that dies. the key word is dies. since they couldn't die, couldn't God kept them in heaven with Him!!!
How do I create a whole new post subject area?
I want to start a whole new topic thread with a different subject so that people can answer a question I have on the deutrocanonical book of tobit.
How do I create a whole new post subject area?
go to the category that u'll post the topic in and click "New Topic" on the top right.
First, go here:
http://tasbeha.org/content/community/index.php?board=1.0
then at the top of the grid/table on the right side you will see a link "New topic" next to "notify" and "post a new poll". Click on that and you will start a new thread- which is like a conversation based on the one topic. For instance, the page you are reading now is called a thread.
You might know all this, so please don't feel offended if I'm being to simplistic- I just have to assume that you have no knowledge.
I hope this is what you wanted?
Good luck. Looking forward to your question! (I think the Book of Tobit was a bit strange when I read it the first time)
[quote author=minagir link=topic=5661.msg75561#msg75561 date=1187268804]
but i don't think we got to a final answer. the way i think of it, supporting what u said in the other post, sinsse they are still in their human body, alive, why couldn't they enter heaven. Paradise was closed and heaven was of limits for anyone that dies. the key word is dies. since they couldn't die, couldn't God kept them in heaven with Him!!!
Let us take Christ as the example of humanity. Christ, after becoming man, lived as we did and then died. After 3 days, He rose again from the dead with a glorified body and then ascended into Heaven (the Heaven of Heavens, or Kingdom of Heaven). When the good thief was dying beside Him, Christ told him that today, the thief would be with Him in Paradise (not Heaven). Now, if Christ ascended to Heaven with a glorified body, and the thief who died (and still did not possess the glorified body, which no one will possess until after the Day of Judgement and the final Resurrection of the dead), then what possible reason is there to assume that Enoch and Elijah are somehow exceptions? Because Elijah and Enoch have not died, they cannot be in the Heaven of heavens. They have not:
1) Died (as is required of all man)
2) Resurrected with a glorified body that is worthy of being in Heaven.
Our body now is still corrupt and fallen. How can this fallen nature possibly be in Heaven in the presence of God? Do you see where I'm coming from?
[coptic]+ Iryny nem `hmot>[/coptic]
[quote author=minagir link=topic=5661.msg75561#msg75561 date=1187268804]
but i don't think we got to a final answer. the way i think of it, supporting what u said in the other post, sinsse they are still in their human body, alive, why couldn't they enter heaven. Paradise was closed and heaven was of limits for anyone that dies. the key word is dies. since they couldn't die, couldn't God kept them in heaven with Him!!!
Let us take Christ as the example of humanity. Christ, after becoming man, lived as we did and then died. After 3 days, He rose again from the dead with a glorified body and then ascended into Heaven (the Heaven of Heavens, or Kingdom of Heaven). When the good thief was dying beside Him, Christ told him that today, the thief would be with Him in Paradise (not Heaven). Now, if Christ ascended to Heaven with a glorified body, and the thief who died (and still did not possess the glorified body, which no one will possess until after the Day of Judgement and the final Resurrection of the dead), then what possible reason is there to assume that Enoch and Elijah are somehow exceptions? Because Elijah and Enoch have not died, they cannot be in the Heaven of heavens. They have not:
1) Died (as is required of all man)
2) Resurrected with a glorified body that is worthy of being in Heaven.
Our body now is still corrupt and fallen. How can this fallen nature possibly be in Heaven in the presence of God? Do you see where I'm coming from?
yes i do get it. but does that mean at judgement day everyone will die and resurrect in the new body. wouldn't just Christ come and take those who still on earth alive and scantify them to be ascneded?!
Well if we take a look at Hebrews 9:27-28: we see that the author (or speaker, if you will) seems to indicate that all men must die. Does this mean physical death? Based on the context, I think it is safe to assume that. Thus, if all men must die (physically), then on the Last Day, I speculate that all men will die so that those who are worthy will resurrect and obtain the glorified body. Granted, I'm not sure how the sequence of events will be played out, but I think it isn't unreasonable to think that even all those who are alive on that Day will die.
Kefas said: Now, I only wonder what the following means in response to what you said earlier:
Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump
Also, another verse in 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 says: This seems to imply that the ones that will be alive at the Second Coming will be 'transformed', but not die! Or is there something I missed?
Anyhow, my conclusion also is that the Holy Theotokos was taken up to the Paradise (in the flesh), and that may also be the place where Elijah and Anok are.
Matt,
As always, fantastic post. You raise some very very good points. I've given it a bit of thought and this is the only conclusion I have been able to come up with. Man must die (physically). There is no escaping this as long as there is still time on this planet. When the final Day of Judgment dawns however, that's it, there is no more 'time' per se. Thus, all those who are alive cannot die (physically). Death will already have been done away with at the second coming of Christ, and so all who are alive on that day will not die but be 'transformed' as Paul says. I'm guessing this will be the only exception to the 'it has been appointed for mortals to die once' clause.
[coptic]+ Iryny nem `hmot>[/coptic]
Matt,
As always, fantastic post. You raise some very very good points. I've given it a bit of thought and this is the only conclusion I have been able to come up with. Man must die (physically). There is no escaping this as long as there is still time on this planet. When the final Day of Judgment dawns however, that's it, there is no more 'time' per se. Thus, all those who are alive cannot die (physically). Death will already have been done away with at the second coming of Christ, and so all who are alive on that day will not die but be 'transformed' as Paul says. I'm guessing this will be the only exception to the 'it has been appointed for mortals to die once' clause.
actually that what i ment. becuase there would be no reason to die if there wouldn't be death on that day except the eternal death of those who are in hell.
Mina,
Yeah, sorry about that. I just hadn't considered those two verses that Matt posted. They had completely slipped my mind, and all I had been thinking about was the verse from Hebrews.
To grovel further, the Assumption of Virgin Mary's body, was it also glorified or "transformed" for it to exist in Heaven...
Certainly Her body was also transfigured when it was assumed into heaven. The reason this feast is so important is because it is in many ways a second Pascha. We see here the Theotokos entering into the resurrection of Her Son, affirming the hope of what the rest of us are still awaiting.
Bump!
Ortho,
Were you able to find a source about the assumption of St. John the Evangelist? Thanks bro.
"When it became time for the departure of the Apostle John, he withdrew out beyond the city-limits of Ephesus, being together with the families of his disciples. He bid them prepare for him a cross-shaped grave, in which he lay, telling his disciples that they should cover him over with the soil. The students with tears kissed their beloved teacher, but not wanting to be disobedient, they fulfilled his bidding. They covered the face of the saint with a cloth and filled in the grave. Learning of this, other students of the Apostle John came to the place of his burial, but opening the grave they found it empty."
I don't know what the original source is, since it only says "© 1999 by translator Fr S Janos," and not from what it has been translated.
For example, the late Bishop Alexander Mileant wrote:
St. John the Theologian died a natural death (the only one of the Apostles to do so), being around 105 years of age, during the time of Emperor Trajan. The circumstances of the Apostles death appeared to be unusual and even puzzling. Upon the insistence of Apostle John, he was buried alive. On the following day, when the tomb was unearthed it turned out to be empty. This event somewhat affirmed the belief in the conjecture of some Christians that Apostle John will not die but will live until the Second coming of Christ and that he will unmask the Antichrist. The reason for such a surmise was served by the words said by the Saviour not long before his Ascention. To the question of Apostle Peter as to what will become with Apostle John, the Lord answered, "If I will that he remain until I come (the second time) what is that to you? You follow Me " Apostle John makes a notation regarding this in his Gospel: " This saying went out among the brethren that this disciple would not die" (John 21:22-23).