Howdy, Stranger!
It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!
Categories
- All Categories 13.8K
- General Category 10.9K
- General Announcements 184
- Faith Issues 3.4K
- Coptic Orthodox Church 2.5K
- Personal Issues 1.4K
- Prayer Requests 423
- Random Issues 1.8K
- Introductions 294
- Non-Orthodox Inquiries 232
- Youth Corner 606
- Hymns 2.5K
- Hymns Discussion 2.5K
- Technicial Difficulties 368
- Technical Topics 368
Are sins equal?
So my younger brohter asked me that
and my answer was no based on how we say in the mass
that God will "Grant everyone according to his deeds"
but what caused me to double think that was
how we refute the idea of "Seven Deadly Sins"
and my answer was no based on how we say in the mass
that God will "Grant everyone according to his deeds"
but what caused me to double think that was
how we refute the idea of "Seven Deadly Sins"
Comments
Sin = Death
now blasphemy is different cause there is not turning back once you do it... For example if you commite adultry you can confess and your accepted but not with blasphemy
(Matthew 12:31- And so I tell you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven.)
that's confessable... I thought anything we repented of and confessed was forgiven us.
There is one unforgivable sin i know of though.. loss of hope -> suicide.
There's no turning back then and so it is unforgivable.
Everything else, however, is equal.
But like Hizz chilld said, suicide is also not forgiveable.
But I heard that Judah still went to heaven even after he killed himself. Is that true?
could it be because he died before Jesus Christ our Lord and Savior, Creator of all man kind,
died for our sins after that. And He went to Hades Himself willingly and freed all the souls there, and
so Judas' soul also got saved in the process, right? I believe.... anyone got anything to say? lol
iT IS true; blasphemy against the Holy Spirit is not forgiveable. :'(
But like Hizz chilld said, suicide is also not forgiveable.
But I heard that Judah still went to heaven even after he killed himself. Is that true?
could it be because he died before Jesus Christ our Lord and Savior, Creator of all man kind,
died for our sins after that. And He went to Hades Himself willingly and freed all the souls there, and
so Judas' soul also got saved in the process, right? I believe.... anyone got anything to say? lol
no we don't believe that.
So, you think he stayed in hell just by himself. Lonely, by himself? No one there at least to suffer with him? Only by himself.
In my language, there is a saying: "Even suffering is good (nice), when You are (suffering) with a beloved one (referring to a friend)" So, I bet he felt lonely in hell. :-\ :'( Feel kind of bad for him cause he must really have felt guilt for betraying our/his Lord and Savior Jesus Christ after he was chosen by Him. Money is really bad... it could lead you to do to many things that you won't do under normal circumstances.
pray for me. ;)
>:(
Really?
So, you think he stayed in hell just by himself. Lonely, by himself? No one there at least to suffer with him? Only by himself.
In my language, there is a saying: "Even suffering is good (nice), when You are (suffering) with a beloved one (referring to a friend)" So, I bet he felt lonely in hell. :-\ :'( Feel kind of bad for him cause he must really have felt guilt for betraying our/his Lord and Savior Jesus Christ after he was chosen by Him. Money is really bad... it could lead you to do to many things that you won't do under normal circumstances.
pray for me. ;)
>:(
He wasnt alone. Jesus didn't take everyone to Paradise with him.. He only took those who were worthy. And Hell isn't supposed to be pretty.. Even if you have a friend.
One of the things that hinder the discussion from progress is in what way is sin to be viewed as equal; in hindsight, I am asking what is the question. Let me explain: is a 20c coin equal to two 10c coins. You would say yes- in value it is, but in weight it might not be (I'm not sure, but I hope you get my meaning).
Anyway, I promised that I would go into the Old Testament, but I think this is alluded to in the first epistle of John. He speaks of "sin not leading to death" and "sin leading to death" in 1 Jn 5:16, yet is quick to reprimand us, reminding us that "all unrighteousness is sin" (v17).
In our discussion, sin leading to death is that which is beyond prayer- a willful, continual disbelief in the grace of the Holy Spirit toward us. This is what is meant by blasphemy of the Holy Spirit. This is why suicide is usually a sin, because the loss of hope is a denial of the power and Will of the Holy Spirit; that and it is murder of a life that is not yours.
We must look at sin again as unrighteousness; a bad work- one that is devoid of love and does not glorify God. I hear some wise guy saying, "Oh, so sleep is sinful." Perhaps when it is not the right time, that could be true. Everything has a season, and rejuvenating and taking care of our bodies is an imperative we have in maintaining the temple of the Spirit, of which we have been called to. Sin is separation from God- a seed of which brings further separation and unhappiness.
There were several offerings recorded in Leviticus:
1) the Sin offering (aka guilt offering): offered to make atonement for sins for which restitution was not possible (Lev. 4:5-12)
2) The Trespass offering: made for lesser or unintentional offenses for which restitution was possible (Lev. 5:14-19)
3) The Burnt offering: made to symbolise the sinner's desire to be purged of sinful acts (a reason why Catholics believe in Purgatory) (Num. 28:1-9; I know this is not Leviticus :P)
4) The Meal offering: similar to Burnt offering, accompanied by the burning of incense
5) Burning of incense, which is the prayers of the worshipper
6) The Peace offering: it was a voluntary animal offering that was shared with the priests and other worshipers (Lev. 3)
St. Paul said these have all been replaced by the sacrifice of the Lord, the High Priest (Heb. 9:11-28), which we partake in the Liturgy.
As I have outlined, there was distinctly two types of offenses for which restitution may or may not be possible. They both bring the seed of death, but they are by all means not the same.
The fact that if we stumble and fall in one point that we are guilty of all is not a contradiction, but a way to express that we are in no position to judge and we have offended the Lord just as others have.
A willful and knowing rebellion is more debilitating to our souls, than the unintentional and unknowing transgression.
Any sin may mean guilt and offense to God, but its affect on our souls, our will and our mind is vastly different. And the temporary punishments were also different.
[quote author=Hailemikael link=topic=5739.msg76673#msg76673 date=1189409550]
Really?
So, you think he stayed in hell just by himself. Lonely, by himself? No one there at least to suffer with him? Only by himself.
In my language, there is a saying: "Even suffering is good (nice), when You are (suffering) with a beloved one (referring to a friend)" So, I bet he felt lonely in hell. :-\ :'( Feel kind of bad for him cause he must really have felt guilt for betraying our/his Lord and Savior Jesus Christ after he was chosen by Him. Money is really bad... it could lead you to do to many things that you won't do under normal circumstances.
pray for me. ;)
>:(
He wasnt alone. Jesus didn't take everyone to Paradise with him.. He only took those who were worthy. And Hell isn't supposed to be pretty.. Even if you have a friend.
Hizz chiilld, I think you are completely wrong, for Jesus Christ our Lord and Savior saved everyone from hell and hell became empty. I could be wrong, but this is the teaching of my church. Satan was really upset and mad.
Have you seen "Passion of Christ"? At the end when Satan cried... yelled... or was nervous... I believe it was because , in my language we say "Mirkoyen Qemaw"--->ምርኮውን ቀማው። It means our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ took away his captives (souls he owned). the devil said, "who is this fellow who took away my captives??" for he didn't know he was God... meaning Satan was decieved for Jesus Christ , Alpha and Omega, had a human form... born from Virgin Mary.. right from her womb, drank her milk, and at the end He gave her a promise (His word) that whoever shall feed the hungry and do good deeds in your name, I shall not abandon him/her and shall remember him/her in the end. Amen to that.... for we Orthodox followers are very blessed we have her as our 'back -up'. :)
In i have one little question: When did the Devil learned that Jesus Christ was God Himself (the Son)... I asked a priest about this two days ago, and he said when (forgot/don't know what verse in the Gospels) the mad 'possessed' guy tried to stone Jesus, He rebuked him... then the demon in the guy said "Jesus of Nazareth... ...." and he learned Jesus was God Himself.
But I doubt this, ... I heard from somewhere that the Devil was surprised when Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour went to hell after He died on the cross.... and said "who is this guy 'mirkoyen ye'Qemagn' (took away my captives)".
I like surprises... especially surprising bad things when they least expected it and make them weep and cry. >:( :D
It wouldn't make sence if Jesus took ALL who were in hell, good and bad.. because then, those people practically got a free pass to heaven.. We must live with Jesus on Earth so we can be with Him after we leave the Earth. I don't see why it would be any different for those who died before Christ.. Can you?
We should get a third oppinion though..
third oppinion!?!!
where art thou !?
In the old testament, the Jews sacrificed a goat, or dove, or a lamb at the temple when they sinned.
But it only worked once, and then if they sinned they had to get another sacrifice. They could also save themselves and
when I mean 'save' .. it was from worldly bad things happening to them. NOt from the pits of hell.
So there had to be one sacrifice that could end the curse that was brought from Adam and EVe. So God loved the world, He sent His only Son to save it. (from the Bible lol - forgot which verse)
Remember, Abraham, David, Issiac, Elijah (who went from earth up to the sky with a chariot), Issiac, jacob, etc.. were all holy people and they could have went to heaven (i believe). But the curse hadn't been broken, and God gave Prophet/Kind David His word saying I will be born from your blood and save all humankind. Other prophets like Erimas, Issayas, etc.. also.. it was revelled to them God will be born from a 15 year old virgin (His name will be Amanuel) in Bethelehem and He will save the world. So, I was saying... even God loved these holy people..... that in my church it is thought that..... He had a special place in hell for them.... where they do not suffer.... a little 'protectorate' like the British empire had on India, Australia, etc....
So, the only sacrifice that could save the world was Jesus Christs' sacrifice. It was done once and only once. It shall not be repeated. He gave us His body and blood and said those who eat my body and blood, I shall be in them and they with me.
I believe that hell became empty when Jesus freed all the captive souls... and Diablos was or became lonely.
Can you prove anything?
My friend told me about few weeks ago... that some people have read so much that (theologians) that they can state reasons for you to prove to you there is no one God. And then in turn, could describe the opposite and make you believe again.
This sounds weird, but it's hard to explain. It is all a matter of faith, i guess. ;D ;D ;D
I stated the reasons of why I hold my opinion... You havn't really done that..
Faith isn't blind.
Frankly I find the idea that Christ saved everyone before His death as so obnoxious and absurd. It defies all logic, and I have never ever found any Scriptural or Tradition that supports such a tantamount assault to Christian piety.
I read Romans 5, which I think is where the confusion arises, however there is absolutely no indication that ALL people before the Lord's Resurrection had been raised. Even if it did, all is most likely to refer to the saints- in which I implore you to read the context. When St Paul says "we" he obviously means the Christian Church at Rome.
In Romans 3, St Paul shows that the Gentiles were justified apart from the deeds of the law (v28) if they followed the law of faith (v27), a law which still prevails today. This faith has always been accessible, but only now, in Christ, is it revealed (v21) in full, through faith in Christ Jesus (v22).
Hades did not become empty- their justice is the same as the justice we and all those who have not heard of Christ will receive. To believe such a thing is, I believe wholeheartedly, a grave and monumental injustice.
I'll be back with more. I have to get ready for class now.
I'm sure there is some explanation to it.
Or I might be totally wrong. :P
An example:
If the people who mocked and disobeyed God around Noah's time and died in the flood were saved when Jesus descended into hades, than that means when Judgement Day comes along modern day evil people, (who went to hades after Jesus opened the Gates) will all likewise have to be saved for we do believe that our God is JUST?
Secondly Jesus's descent into hades was:
to relieve Adam's sin, which had caused all humanity to die *whether good or bad*
Thirdly, in Church we all learn that no one can go to Heaven without Love, Faith, Deeds and Repentance. I'm pretty sure the people who mocked Noah' never repented, thus the Good Lord chose to "SAVE HIS BELOVED" not everyone, So when Jesus' descended into Hades through the Cross he went to Open the Gates so the "BELOVED CAN BE SAVED"
I think i have to agree with Hizzchild and Doubting Thomas on this one because by God saving everyone when he went down into hades would mean thta when judgement day comes along we will all likewise be saved (very heretical)
An example:
If the people who mocked and disobeyed God around Noah's time and died in the flood were saved when Jesus descended into hades, than that means when Judgement Day comes along modern day evil people, (who went to hades after Jesus opened the Gates) will all likewise have to be saved for we do believe that our God is JUST?
Secondly Jesus's descent into hades was:
to relieve Adam's sin, which had caused all humanity to die *whether good or bad*
Thirdly, in Church we all learn that no one can go to Heaven without Love, Faith, Deeds and Repentance. I'm pretty sure the people who mocked Noah' never repented, thus the Good Lord chose to "SAVE HIS BELOVED" not everyone, So when Jesus' descended into Hades through the Cross he went to Open the Gates so the "BELOVED CAN BE SAVED"
You are missing the point or at least we are not on the same page. :)
The whole point of Christianity is Christ Himself. He was cricified for our sins.
Hmm, so all captives in hell were freed. But you are talking about something else....
you are talking about how those currently damened will go to heaven when judgement day comes.
But Christ already broke the bonds of sin and death. Now we are judged if we aren't waiting for Him ready, with this Body and Blood (Communion) within us. With repentance. I believe. For we are all sinners. St. Virgin Mary would also come in handy for those who believe.
But you know, everyone in the Old Testament have sinned. And also sin from ADam and Eve was also carried in them. So, they had no way in hell or heaven to get into paradise. lol
So, right now... in the New Testament... everyone has sinned except the Virgin Mary, who was Pure in heart and mind. God used her and she gave birth without intercourse.... with the Holy Spirit. God knows how.. we can not ... doubt or suspect how... we just have to be inspired, amazed, awed, and also praise her( like she said in Luke... from now on generations will praise me or something to that sort).
So, right now if we make any kind of excuse... and trun away from God, we will go to hell. We have no excuse to turn away from God... for the Blood has been paid in full.
Even those who have never heard of the gospel, they will be judged through their concise, St. Paul said i think.
And as to those different religions, well... I read somewhere here on the internet (someone from here tasbeha.org actually posted the reading--i believe it was by Pope Shenodua)... that it was Satan's way of distracting the world from the Gospel. Also, like some ideas or belifs like Communism, Radical Islam, Fascism, etc... was a way for the 666 to fight the Church. So, Satan uses people--- and brainwashes them to believing their idea is the right one-- and fights true Christians around the world.
A big example would be how Mohammed was 'inspired' by the Angel Gabriel to right the Quran and start a new religion. This new religion spread like fire--- through the sword--- not preaching (except for in Ethiopia, at least in the beginning).
It destroyed many Churches and in North Africa, where it used to be all Christian (Coptic I believe), it forcefully made the people Muslims. This isn't fair at all. It is still trying to do so, at least some sects of it.
Communism is also another example.... how Satan tested the Church and fought it. It rediculed Churches and rebuked them. It wanted to end religion. In my country also, during the "revolution" led by Mengistu Hailemariam (<-- note his last name literally means "Power of St. Mary") but he wanted power and since the communists were powerful (at least he thought so) he tried to make the whole country a 'communist state'. He stayed in power from 1978-1991. Then another aithiest came to power, but when the cold war was over and the west was victorious, his group imediately changed their stance and adopted 'free-market' policy. But it was all pretend. lol
So, I believe( think) that we should all be ready to take communion and be ready when he comes ... for It could be today, tommorow, or the Day AFter Tommorrow (<--- who saw that movie by the way, kinda' scary lol) . We got no excuse for sinning, if we did then just repent, right...
Everyone save himself/herself... for no one will be there for you at the end. They say even a mother will not hear her child's scream and crying... cause she will be too busy crying and mourning herself... God, surounded with angels and His Mother Holiest of All Holies, Virgin Mary, right beside Him, will come unexpectedly. They say He will come on Saturday night around midnight... but that is just a saying. No one will every know, except they say Fathers that are in monasteries know for sure the exact day. I'll ask them when I go there next summer--- that is if the day doesn't come before that! lol :D
May God help us not see the fires of hell.
I agree with what you are saying.. the only problem is, it doesn't really support your point... ???
Hailemikael,
I agree with what you are saying.. the only problem is, it doesn't really support your point... ???
lol what was the point i was trying to make again?
I get carried away easily. :-[ i'm just surprised i know all this... just keep popping in my head. i should stop diverting
from the main point. :D
You have not shown any evidence that the unrighteous souls have been taken to paradise, if they were 'fortunate' enough to have lived before Christ.
Salvation can only be through Christ. Although Old Testament prophets died in faith and "became heir of the righteousness which is according to faith", they did not receive salvation until the death of our Lord on the Cross. "These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off were assured of them, embraced them and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth" (Heb 11:13). If Abraham was already saved why would the Holy Scriptures have to tell us "Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he saw it and was glad" (Jn 8:56) and why would Jacob says, "I have waited for your salvation, O Lord" (Gen 49:18).
In the Holy Book of Ephesians we read "Therefore He says: 'When He ascended on high, He led captivity captive, and gave gifts to men.' (Now this, "He ascended"; what does it mean but that He also first descended into the lower parts of the earth? He who descended is also the One who ascended far above all the heavens, that He might fill all things)" (Eph 4:8-10) or in the Revised Standard Version reads, "When he ascended on high he led a host of captives."
The Fathers interpreted "captivity captive" to mean that as a result of Adam's sin we became captives to the devil who placed us under his authority and the spirits of the departed were caught and brought down to Hades, for Paradise was closed. When Christ gave Himself for us on the Cross He, through His blood, freed the righteous from this captivity to join Him in Paradise (not Heaven), which He opened on that same day.
This quote was taken from His Grace Anba Youssef of the Southern Diocsese. Abraham and Isaac tried to be good people in hope of being freed from Hades when Jesus came. Not all people went with God. I'm not sure if this is Origen's idea or that was just in reference to the Old Testament.
Now regarding the original question why don't you guys ask Abouna? They're very knowledgable and always a great source for questions such as these. Arrange for Abouna to come to your house once a week and establish Bible Study and ask questions, it's a grand idea.
From my understanding, blasphemy against the Holy Spirit is singled out as being the worst and unforgivable. Essentially, you don't believe in God which is an unforgivable sin. In our church a saying goes, 'If you sin small you might as well sin big.'
God forbid any of you go to hell.
God Bless.
[quote author=ANDPOC link=topic=5739.msg76898#msg76898 date=1189716634]When Christ gave Himself for us on the Cross He, through His blood, freed the righteous from this captivity to join Him in Paradise (not Heaven), which He opened on that same day. [/i]
As you can clearly see, He doesn't say all who were "captives" joined Christ in paradise. Secondly, even if it was said all "captives", there is the belief that the unrighteous choose Hades, and the righteous before Christ were captives with the hope and faith of liberation.
iT IS true; blasphemy against the Holy Spirit is not forgiveable. :'(
no it is not forgiveable.
[quote author=Hailemikael link=topic=5739.msg76670#msg76670 date=1189408803]
iT IS true; blasphemy against the Holy Spirit is not forgiveable. :'(
no it is not forgiveable.
That is what i said eko.
Hey, do u live in Ethiopia?
Sunday School teacher:
All sins are equal when it comes to their consequences = Death, hell, as already stated.
yet not all sins are equal when it comes to hteir affect on the person.
i.e. you cursing your wife is not the same as cheating on your wife which si also a sin on yourself.
Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit is the only unforgiveableable sin (as stated before) and what that sin is
is basically when a person refuses the power of hte Holy Spirit in him ignores it doesnt Want it...........not cursing it.
God Bless
becasue the result of that is a sin w/o repentance
Suicide is not always a sin- just as murder is not always a sin. Look at Samson and St Mary the Armenian.
I'm not familiar with the story.. and I'm not sure what you mean.. ?
explain :)
Suicide is not always a sin- just as murder is not always a sin. Look at Samson and St Mary the Armenian.
Samson did not kill himself eko, the building just collapsed on him. I don't think he really meant to kill himself.
could be wrong... :P
:D