[quote author=Nestor link=topic=5730.msg76989#msg76989 date=1189872598] All Eastern Orthodox celebrate the Nativity of our Lord on December 25th. Of the six Greek Orthodox churches - Constantinople, Greece, Cyprus, Antioch, Jerusalem, and Alexandria - only Jerusalem is still (again) on the Julian Calendar where Dec 25 falls on civil date Jan 7 (at this point in time).
[quote author=smile4ever link=topic=5730.msg76993#msg76993 date=1189878027] [quote author=Nestor link=topic=5730.msg76989#msg76989 date=1189872598] All Eastern Orthodox celebrate the Nativity of our Lord on December 25th. Of the six Greek Orthodox churches - Constantinople, Greece, Cyprus, Antioch, Jerusalem, and Alexandria - only Jerusalem is still (again) on the Julian Calendar where Dec 25 falls on civil date Jan 7 (at this point in time).
[quote author=john_paul_elia link=topic=5730.msg76987#msg76987 date=1189865303] Would you please Orthodox 11 let me know what do you mean by Meletios Metaksakis
Meletios Metaksakis was the man who, through political and financial corruption, managed to become head of (and later exiled from) the churches of Greece, Constantinople and Alexandria, where he was responsible for introducing the New Calendar (in order to draw closer to the Western churches). At the time of his death he was attempting to become Patriarch of Jerusalem.
He also declared Anglican orders valid (something even the Catholics criticized him for), was responsible for the jurisdictional rivalry in America (all EOs in America had previously been under Russian jurisdiction) and similar feats in Europe.
In short, he's the cause of pretty much every controversy and division in the Eastern Orthodox Church today.
[quote author=Nestor link=topic=5730.msg76989#msg76989 date=1189872598] All Eastern Orthodox celebrate the Nativity of our Lord on December 25th.
This is true even of the Coptic Church. The date of Christmas IS fixed, on December 25th.
Of the six Greek Orthodox churches - Constantinople, Greece, Cyprus, Antioch, Jerusalem, and Alexandria - only Jerusalem is still (again) on the Julian Calendar where Dec 25 falls on civil date Jan 7 (at this point in time).
The Holy Mountain also uses the Old Calendar exclusively.
[quote author=smile4ever link=topic=5730.msg76993#msg76993 date=1189878027] i thought that a small minority of the EO church followed the new calendar waiting for Orthodox 11's comment on that.
Those Patriarchates who regretably made the mistake of adopting the New Calendar represent only a minority of Eastern Orthodox worldwide, most of whom belong to the Slavic churches.
Hey guys, I was busy for the last few weeks. Now I am back and I have read all contributions made by many of you. From all what I have read, I am still not convinced that we should drop the subject of changing the`Christmas day to 25 December. It is well proven by calculation that 25 December was corresponding to 29 Kiahk until the year 1582 and now it keeps on moving. So, the coptic church leaders should have the courage to push back 29 Kiahk from 7 January to 25 December.
You guyz the fact is, NOBODY KNOWS WHEN CHRIST WAS BORN. It's really dumb that we can't all celebrate Christmas on the same day, and when Nativity feast comes on a weekday, we need to take the whole week off so we can travel and be with family. Come on, that's dumb. When like a week before, December 25, we are off regardless for the supposed real christmas. A priest once said that Christ might have been born even on december first for all we know.
I agree with you on everything except changing the date because there is no real purpose too, and secondly you are talking about people in the lands of immigration having to take this day off on their own. in Egypt now its a Holiday that all christians are allowed to take off and is assumed that you are not showing up to work or school that day, what i'm trying to say is that the government in egypt gave them this day.
[quote author=jydeacon link=topic=5730.msg78769#msg78769 date=1193250034] I agree with you on everything except changing the date because there is no real purpose too, and secondly you are talking about people in the lands of immigration having to take this day off on their own. in Egypt now its a Holiday that all christians are allowed to take off and is assumed that you are not showing up to work or school that day, what i'm trying to say is that the government in egypt gave them this day.
The dilemma here is not the holiday. It is how to reach to the church unity starting with the first step, I mean having one Christmas day irrespective of the actual date of Jesus birth.
Nobody really knows when the actual birth of Christ was, whether it was on Dec. 25 or Jan 7 it doesn't matter. some say that it occured in spring, at this point it really does not matter when his birth was as long as we commemorate it.
To be honest, I fail to see how a unified date to celebrate the Feast of the Nativity will be a step towards reunification. I don't think the date a particular church celebrates the Feast matters. What matters is the significant theological event and the spiritual meaning behind the Feast, not the date. On that, I think it is safe to say that both EO and OO agree. The second person of the Trinity, the Divine Logos, took flesh and became man to save us from our sins and to open the doors for man to partake of the Divine Nature. So I would not see it being an obstacle at all if, in the event of reunification, some churches celebrated the feast of Nativity on December 25, and other did on January 7.
[quote author=john_paul_elia link=topic=5730.msg78814#msg78814 date=1193413075] The dilemma here is not the holiday. It is how to reach to the church unity starting with the first step, I mean having one Christmas day irrespective of the actual date of Jesus birth.
No unity can be achieved until schismatics and heretics return to Orthodoxy. It will never be achieved by such trivial gestures - this will only harm the Church. Again, I suggest you look at the disaster the calendar change has created in the EO Church. It has brought endless internal division, but done nothing to bring the heterodox closer to Orthodoxy.
The Church is the Ark of salvation, filling it with water from the outside will not benefit those who are drowning, it will only make it harder for the Ark to stay afloat.
[quote author=john_paul_elia link=topic=5730.msg78729#msg78729 date=1193149097] It is well proven by calculation that 25 December was corresponding to 29 Kiahk until the year 1582 and now it keeps on moving. So, the coptic church leaders should have the courage to push back 29 Kiahk from 7 January to 25 December.
1582 was the year that the Gregorian Calendar was introduced and until this point December 25th was calculated according to the Old (Julian) Calendar.
The Coptic date of Christmas STILL corresponds to 25th December on the Julian Calendar.
So what's your point?
We should change our traditions every time the Catholic Pope comes up with an innovation?
I do not know if you are an Orthodox or otherwise something else, but it seems from your writing and the way you pursue the subject of a certain date that you are incline and bias toward the Catholic Church. I advise you to ask the Catholics to adopt the unified date for celebrating the Feast of Glorious Resurrection shared by both the OO and EO, after all it was one of many resolution issued during the Universal Council at Nicea. The Catholic Church as usual followed her own way of adopting things contrary to the whole Christendom
Safaa It does not matter for you to know whether I am coptic or something else or biased to the Chatholic Church. That is not the point. I would like to tell you that the Catholic church stared the process of unifying the feast of Resurrection in Egypt and it is a fact now that all cahtloic are celebrating the resurrection with us (in Egypt). There was an agreement sometime back in Sixties or Seventies of the last century that the chatholic would celebrate the resurrection with the coptic church and the coptic church would celebrate the X-mas on 25th December. After we succedded in pulling catholic towards us in Easter celebration, we failed to fullfil the rest of our undertaking in relation to Christmas.
Scientifically you can not say any thing without a prove and consider it a fact, what you alleged is a hoax . The Coptic Church was never and is not interested in changing a certain date for a sake of unity with the Catholics. Christian unity should be based on one faith, the true Orthodoxy, as St. Paul said “ One Lord, one faith, one baptism “.
I agree with safaa i have never heard of the catholics(whether in Egypt or abroad because they still are under the jurisdiction of the pope of rome) change their date for the Feast of the Glorious Resurrection and second, i repeat myself with many others saying we will gain absolutely nothing by changing the date as no one really knows when he was born and whoever says they know is a liar. and it is really to no importance whether we have the right date of his birth or not we are just commemorating that He was born into the world because He loved us and came to redeem us. Also just by changing the date back to the 25th will not put us in communion with catholics or anyone for that matter but communion is based on dogmatic and theological practice as well as sacremental practice.
i have never heard of the catholics(whether in Egypt or abroad because they still are under the jurisdiction of the pope of rome) change their date for the Feast of the Glorious Resurrection
Actually, the coptic catholics in Egypt celebrate the Glorious Feast of Ressurection on the sme date in which we ( coptic orthodox ) celebrate this feast ..i don't know if this applies to greek catholics or not.
[quote author=jydeacon link=topic=5730.msg78878#msg78878 date=1193680618] Also just by changing the date back to the 25th will not put us in communion with catholics or anyone for that matter but communion is based on dogmatic and theological practice as well as sacremental practice.
Again, we do have Xmas on the 25th, but by a different calendar.
[quote author=john_paul_elia link=topic=5730.msg76529#msg76529 date=1189068509] Why the Coptic Church does not correct the Christmas Day to 25 December?
This question was asked many times to many bishops in our church and the answer was not convincing. They do confirm that the date is wrong and give an excuse that this is purely a mathematical error and simple people my think that the Coptic faith is wrong if we change the date.
Please my friends, do not be shocked about this fact. If you read the history below, you will understand the reality.
Until the year 1582, the Christmas was celebrated by the Coptic Orthodox Church on 25 December. Because the calendar year ( what we use as 365 days a year and one leap year every 4 years) is faster than the actual year ( the actual time for one rotation of the earth around the sun) by about 8 to 9 minutes, the calendar was faster by 10 days. In order to synchronise the situation, 10 days were deleted from the calendar and it was agreed that every 400 years, three days should be deleted from the calendar. Because the Coptic calendar did not follow this change, the Christmas day in Egypt was 4 January on the years from 1582 to 1699 and 5 January from 1700 to 1799 and 6 January from 1800 to 1899 and 7 January from 1900 to the year 2099. Then it will be 8 January from 2100 to 2199 and so on.
Can some one tell me why we are not doing it?
I don't know where you got that information from, but from what I know, the Armenian, Coptic, Ethiopian, Indian, and all of the Eastern Orthodox Churches celebrate Christmas on January 6th or 7th, except for the protestants, the Greek Orthodox Church, and the Catholics, who use the new calendar. this is nothing new. Christmas was never originally celebrated on December 25th. the Catholics switched it to that day to make the pagans stop celebrating their holiday and start celebrating Christmas instead.
The exact date of the birth of Christ is unknown, try telling that to a person in Eygpt and he will stubbornly refute this fact ;), but it was made by the Roman Empire. They used the holiday of Saturnelia which was a pagan festival to attract more pagans to God. So they decreed this but our church celebrates it on the 7th along with the Assyrian church and some others as well. Armenians celebrate it on the 6th of January I believe.
[quote author=ANDPOC link=topic=5730.msg79052#msg79052 date=1194051851] Armenians celebrate it on the 6th of January I believe.
From what I've been told, Armenians do not celebrate Christmas. Originally, Christmas and Epiphany were celebrated on the same day as a single Feast. It was later made into two separate feasts. I believe Armenians observe the more ancient feast (but I might be wrong).
[quote author=Orthodox11 link=topic=5730.msg79054#msg79054 date=1194055545] [quote author=ANDPOC link=topic=5730.msg79052#msg79052 date=1194051851] Armenians celebrate it on the 6th of January I believe.
From what I've been told, Armenians do not celebrate Christmas. Originally, Christmas and Epiphany were celebrated on the same day as a single Feast. It was later made into two separate feasts. I believe Armenians observe the more ancient feast (but I might be wrong).
yes I think the Armenians celebrate the baptism of Christ instead of the nativity
[quote author=gigglyshy link=topic=5730.msg79049#msg79049 date=1194048800] I don't know where you got that information from, but from what I know, the Armenian, Coptic, Ethiopian, Indian, and all of the Eastern Orthodox Churches celebrate Christmas on January 6th or 7th, except for the protestants, the Greek Orthodox Church, and the Catholics, who use the new calendar. this is nothing new. Christmas was never originally celebrated on December 25th. the Catholics switched it to that day to make the pagans stop celebrating their holiday and start celebrating Christmas instead.
I'm afraid this is misleading. In the Eastern Orthodox communion the Nativity of our Lord is celebrated on December 25 whether that day falls on civil date (Revised Julian Calendar or the Gregorian) or on the "Old calendar" - Julian December 25th which lags the RJC by 13 days at this time and hence falls on Jan 7 civil date. It's still Dec 25 in any case. I understand the Armenian Apostolic Orthodox celebrate the Nativity on Jan 6, not Dec 25 by any reckoning. As to the rest of the Oriental Orthodox communion, I must await their input for their practices.
[quote author=ANDPOC link=topic=5730.msg79052#msg79052 date=1194051851] The exact date of the birth of Christ is unknown, try telling that to a person in Eygpt and he will stubbornly refute this fact ;), but it was made by the Roman Empire. They used the holiday of Saturnelia which was a pagan festival to attract more pagans to God. So they decreed this but our church celebrates it on the 7th along with the Assyrian church and some others as well. Armenians celebrate it on the 6th of January I believe.
The date has nothing to do with pagan festivals. Also it is a well known fact that 29 Kiahk was 25 December and also it is afact that the coptic church was celebrating the X-mas on 25 December which was corresponding to 29 Kiahk until the year 1582. At that time the Julian Calendar was faster by 10 days than the actual movement of the earth around the sun over 16 centuries. Accordingly, 10 days were deleted from the calendar and on the year 1582, 29 kiahk was corredponding to 4 January. Also there was a rule set up in the new Georgian calendar which is applied till date. The rule is considering the years 1700, 1800, 1900,2100, 2200,2300, 2500, 2600,2700,2900, etc non leap years to adjust the calendar with earth movment around the sun. Accordingly, our X-mas day has moved further three days in the last 400 years and it will keep on moving until one day our coptic X-mas will clash with the good friday or easter.
I seriously doubt that the earth will last that long to a point where it will be clashing with good friday or easter and if it is the case the Holy Synod can just secure the date to January 7 each year
John, you are right and all, but you cannot necessarily assume that. I mean, I agree with you that I cannot see Easter or Good Friday eventually coinciding with Christmas, but who knows, it is possible but UNBELIEVABLY unlikely. Although there is a chance.
[quote author=aem581 link=topic=5730.msg79076#msg79076 date=1194211972] John, you are right and all, but you cannot necessarily assume that. I mean, I agree with you that I cannot see Easter or Good Friday eventually coinciding with Christmas, but who knows, it is possible but UNBELIEVABLY unlikely. Although there is a chance.
Why UNBELIEVABLY and Unlikely when the fact is scientifically proven. It is going to happen unless the coptic church deletes during this century the 13 days difference and schedules to delete 3 days every 400 years in future.
Worry about this day; let the morrow take care of itself. Let's be in the fear of the Lord, and look forward to the resurrection of the dead and the life to come- not anticipate what will happen in thousands of years to come. This is so trivial. I can't believe four pages has been dedicated to it. I think more than half the living world doesn't know their birth dates. Its the spirit of the day, not the date in which we solemnly embrace and nourishes us. And when it approaches, and if the dates collide, the Church will be able to do something about it then.
Comments
All Eastern Orthodox celebrate the Nativity of our Lord on December 25th. Of the six Greek Orthodox churches - Constantinople, Greece, Cyprus, Antioch, Jerusalem, and Alexandria - only Jerusalem is still (again) on the Julian Calendar where Dec 25 falls on civil date Jan 7 (at this point in time).
i thought that a small minority of the EO church followed the new calendar
http://www.orthodoxinfo.com/ecumenism/ea_calendar.aspx
waiting for Orthodox 11's comment on that.
[quote author=Nestor link=topic=5730.msg76989#msg76989 date=1189872598]
All Eastern Orthodox celebrate the Nativity of our Lord on December 25th. Of the six Greek Orthodox churches - Constantinople, Greece, Cyprus, Antioch, Jerusalem, and Alexandria - only Jerusalem is still (again) on the Julian Calendar where Dec 25 falls on civil date Jan 7 (at this point in time).
i thought that a small minority of the EO church followed the new calendar
http://www.orthodoxinfo.com/ecumenism/ea_calendar.aspx
waiting for Orthodox 11's comment on that.
In terms of actual numbers of EO faithful, yes, only a minority are on the Revised Julian Calendar, but a majority of Greek Orthodox are New Calendar.
Would you please Orthodox 11 let me know what do you mean by Meletios Metaksakis
Meletios Metaksakis was the man who, through political and financial corruption, managed to become head of (and later exiled from) the churches of Greece, Constantinople and Alexandria, where he was responsible for introducing the New Calendar (in order to draw closer to the Western churches). At the time of his death he was attempting to become Patriarch of Jerusalem.
He also declared Anglican orders valid (something even the Catholics criticized him for), was responsible for the jurisdictional rivalry in America (all EOs in America had previously been under Russian jurisdiction) and similar feats in Europe.
In short, he's the cause of pretty much every controversy and division in the Eastern Orthodox Church today.
[quote author=Nestor link=topic=5730.msg76989#msg76989 date=1189872598]
All Eastern Orthodox celebrate the Nativity of our Lord on December 25th.
This is true even of the Coptic Church. The date of Christmas IS fixed, on December 25th. The Holy Mountain also uses the Old Calendar exclusively.
[quote author=smile4ever link=topic=5730.msg76993#msg76993 date=1189878027]
i thought that a small minority of the EO church followed the new calendar
waiting for Orthodox 11's comment on that.
Those Patriarchates who regretably made the mistake of adopting the New Calendar represent only a minority of Eastern Orthodox worldwide, most of whom belong to the Slavic churches.
PK
I agree with you on everything except changing the date because there is no real purpose too, and secondly you are talking about people in the lands of immigration having to take this day off on their own. in Egypt now its a Holiday that all christians are allowed to take off and is assumed that you are not showing up to work or school that day, what i'm trying to say is that the government in egypt gave them this day.
The dilemma here is not the holiday. It is how to reach to the church unity starting with the first step, I mean having one Christmas day irrespective of the actual date of Jesus birth.
To be honest, I fail to see how a unified date to celebrate the Feast of the Nativity will be a step towards reunification. I don't think the date a particular church celebrates the Feast matters. What matters is the significant theological event and the spiritual meaning behind the Feast, not the date. On that, I think it is safe to say that both EO and OO agree. The second person of the Trinity, the Divine Logos, took flesh and became man to save us from our sins and to open the doors for man to partake of the Divine Nature. So I would not see it being an obstacle at all if, in the event of reunification, some churches celebrated the feast of Nativity on December 25, and other did on January 7.
The dilemma here is not the holiday. It is how to reach to the church unity starting with the first step, I mean having one Christmas day irrespective of the actual date of Jesus birth.
No unity can be achieved until schismatics and heretics return to Orthodoxy. It will never be achieved by such trivial gestures - this will only harm the Church. Again, I suggest you look at the disaster the calendar change has created in the EO Church. It has brought endless internal division, but done nothing to bring the heterodox closer to Orthodoxy.
The Church is the Ark of salvation, filling it with water from the outside will not benefit those who are drowning, it will only make it harder for the Ark to stay afloat.
It is well proven by calculation that 25 December was corresponding to 29 Kiahk until the year 1582 and now it keeps on moving. So, the coptic church leaders should have the courage to push back 29 Kiahk from 7 January to 25 December.
1582 was the year that the Gregorian Calendar was introduced and until this point December 25th was calculated according to the Old (Julian) Calendar.
The Coptic date of Christmas STILL corresponds to 25th December on the Julian Calendar.
So what's your point?
We should change our traditions every time the Catholic Pope comes up with an innovation?
I do not know if you are an Orthodox or otherwise something else, but it seems from your writing and the way you pursue the subject of a certain date that you are incline and bias toward the Catholic Church.
I advise you to ask the Catholics to adopt the unified date for celebrating the Feast of Glorious Resurrection shared by both the OO and EO, after all it was one of many resolution issued during the Universal Council at Nicea. The Catholic Church as usual followed her own way of adopting things contrary to the whole Christendom
It does not matter for you to know whether I am coptic or something else or biased to the Chatholic Church. That is not the point. I would like to tell you that the Catholic church stared the process of unifying the feast of Resurrection in Egypt and it is a fact now that all cahtloic are celebrating the resurrection with us (in Egypt). There was an agreement sometime back in Sixties or Seventies of the last century that the chatholic would celebrate the resurrection with the coptic church and the coptic church would celebrate the X-mas on 25th December. After we succedded in pulling catholic towards us in Easter celebration, we failed to fullfil the rest of our undertaking in relation to Christmas.
Scientifically you can not say any thing without a prove and consider it a fact, what you alleged is a hoax . The Coptic Church was never and is not interested in changing a certain date for a sake of unity with the Catholics. Christian unity should be based on one faith, the true Orthodoxy, as St. Paul said “ One Lord, one faith, one baptism “.
Also just by changing the date back to the 25th will not put us in communion with catholics or anyone for that matter but communion is based on dogmatic and theological practice as well as sacremental practice.
Again, we do have Xmas on the 25th, but by a different calendar.
Why the Coptic Church does not correct the Christmas Day to 25 December?
This question was asked many times to many bishops in our church and the answer was not convincing. They do confirm that the date is wrong and give an excuse that this is purely a mathematical error and simple people my think that the Coptic faith is wrong if we change the date.
Please my friends, do not be shocked about this fact. If you read the history below, you will understand the reality.
Until the year 1582, the Christmas was celebrated by the Coptic Orthodox Church on 25 December. Because the calendar year ( what we use as 365 days a year and one leap year every 4 years) is faster than the actual year ( the actual time for one rotation of the earth around the sun) by about 8 to 9 minutes, the calendar was faster by 10 days. In order to synchronise the situation, 10 days were deleted from the calendar and it was agreed that every 400 years, three days should be deleted from the calendar. Because the Coptic calendar did not follow this change, the Christmas day in Egypt was 4 January on the years from 1582 to 1699 and 5 January from 1700 to 1799 and 6 January from 1800 to 1899 and 7 January from 1900 to the year 2099. Then it will be 8 January from 2100 to 2199 and so on.
Can some one tell me why we are not doing it?
I don't know where you got that information from, but from what I know, the Armenian, Coptic, Ethiopian, Indian, and all of the Eastern Orthodox Churches celebrate Christmas on January 6th or 7th, except for the protestants, the Greek Orthodox Church, and the Catholics, who use the new calendar. this is nothing new. Christmas was never originally celebrated on December 25th. the Catholics switched it to that day to make the pagans stop celebrating their holiday and start celebrating Christmas instead.
Armenians celebrate it on the 6th of January I believe.
From what I've been told, Armenians do not celebrate Christmas. Originally, Christmas and Epiphany were celebrated on the same day as a single Feast. It was later made into two separate feasts. I believe Armenians observe the more ancient feast (but I might be wrong).
[quote author=ANDPOC link=topic=5730.msg79052#msg79052 date=1194051851]
Armenians celebrate it on the 6th of January I believe.
From what I've been told, Armenians do not celebrate Christmas. Originally, Christmas and Epiphany were celebrated on the same day as a single Feast. It was later made into two separate feasts. I believe Armenians observe the more ancient feast (but I might be wrong).
yes I think the Armenians celebrate the baptism of Christ instead of the nativity
I don't know where you got that information from, but from what I know, the Armenian, Coptic, Ethiopian, Indian, and all of the Eastern Orthodox Churches celebrate Christmas on January 6th or 7th, except for the protestants, the Greek Orthodox Church, and the Catholics, who use the new calendar. this is nothing new. Christmas was never originally celebrated on December 25th. the Catholics switched it to that day to make the pagans stop celebrating their holiday and start celebrating Christmas instead.
I'm afraid this is misleading. In the Eastern Orthodox communion the Nativity of our Lord is celebrated on December 25 whether that day falls on civil date (Revised Julian Calendar or the Gregorian) or on the "Old calendar" - Julian December 25th which lags the RJC by 13 days at this time and hence falls on Jan 7 civil date. It's still Dec 25 in any case.
I understand the Armenian Apostolic Orthodox celebrate the Nativity on Jan 6, not Dec 25 by any reckoning. As to the rest of the Oriental Orthodox communion, I must await their input for their practices.
The exact date of the birth of Christ is unknown, try telling that to a person in Eygpt and he will stubbornly refute this fact ;), but it was made by the Roman Empire. They used the holiday of Saturnelia which was a pagan festival to attract more pagans to God. So they decreed this but our church celebrates it on the 7th along with the Assyrian church and some others as well. Armenians celebrate it on the 6th of January I believe.
The date has nothing to do with pagan festivals. Also it is a well known fact that 29 Kiahk was 25 December and also it is afact that the coptic church was celebrating the X-mas on 25 December which was corresponding to 29 Kiahk until the year 1582. At that time the Julian Calendar was faster by 10 days than the actual movement of the earth around the sun over 16 centuries. Accordingly, 10 days were deleted from the calendar and on the year 1582, 29 kiahk was corredponding to 4 January. Also there was a rule set up in the new Georgian calendar which is applied till date. The rule is considering the years 1700, 1800, 1900,2100, 2200,2300, 2500, 2600,2700,2900, etc non leap years to adjust the calendar with earth movment around the sun. Accordingly, our X-mas day has moved further three days in the last 400 years and it will keep on moving until one day our coptic X-mas will clash with the good friday or easter.
John, you are right and all, but you cannot necessarily assume that. I mean, I agree with you that I cannot see Easter or Good Friday eventually coinciding with Christmas, but who knows, it is possible but UNBELIEVABLY unlikely. Although there is a chance.
Why UNBELIEVABLY and Unlikely when the fact is scientifically proven. It is going to happen unless the coptic church deletes during this century the 13 days difference and schedules to delete 3 days every 400 years in future.
I have still yet to understand why this is of any concern at all.