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Jehovah's Witnesses

aidanaidan
edited December 1969 in Faith Issues
Although some film stars subscribe to Scientology not too many ordinary folks do. The contrary is true for the JWs. They seem very modest people and their alternative take on many bible texts is intrigueing. I have read Pope Shenouda's writing about them but sometimes when I feel battered and depressed by the Orthodox jurisdiction troubles I look more kindly towards them.

One thing particularly bothers me, 'Verily I say unto you, this day thou shalt be with me in paradise.' With a change in punctuation, 'Verily I say unto you this, thou shalt be with me in paradise' you get a partial confirmation of their doctrine of soul sleep, i.e. there is no conscious life for humans between death and the general resurrection. Bible concordances don't help much on this one and Orthodox teaching seems unclear.

What's the answer?

Comments

  • HolmesHolmes
    [coptic]+ Iryny nem `hmot>[/coptic]

    I don't know about you, but for me, the story of Lazarus and the rich man would put the notion of 'soul sleep' to rest (no pun intended).  Here is the story:

    [quote=Luke 16:19-31]19.  "There was a rich man who was dressed in purple and fine linen and who feasted sumptuously every day.
    20.  And at his gate lay a poor man named Lazarus, covered with sores,
    21.  who longed to satisfy his hunger with what fell from the rich man's table; even the dogs would come and lick his sores.
    22.  The poor man died and was carried away by the angels to be with Abraham. The rich man also died and was buried.
    23.  In Hades, where he was being tormented, he looked up and saw Abraham far away with Lazarus by his side.
    24.  He called out, 'Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am in agony in these flames.'
    25.  But Abraham said, 'Child, remember that during your lifetime you received your good things, and Lazarus in like manner evil things; but now he is comforted here, and you are in agony.
    26.  Besides all this, between you and us a great chasm has been fixed, so that those who might want to pass from here to you cannot do so, and no one can cross from there to us.'
    27.  He said, 'Then, father, I beg you to send him to my father's house--
    28.  for I have five brothers-- that he may warn them, so that they will not also come into this place of torment.'
    29.  Abraham replied, 'They have Moses and the prophets; they should listen to them.'
    30.  He said, 'No, father Abraham; but if someone goes to them from the dead, they will repent.'
    31.  He said to him, 'If they do not listen to Moses and the prophets, neither will they be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.'"

    This is just one example.  However, in Revelation, John speaks of the prayers of the saints who intercede for those on earth as well.  I'm not sure the exact reference right now but when I get the chance I'll look it up.
  • Anglican
    They are fortunate that Jehovah does not sue for misrepresentation :D

    The jurisdictional problems within Orthodoxy pale into insignificance when compared with the thousands of Protestant and non-Trinitarian denominations. Our Lord founded a Church, and it still exists, and it offers the best spiritual medicine for what ails us. It has prevailed against the Gates of Hades for nearly two thousand years. The JWs have nothing to offer save second-hand versions of old gnostic heresies - and some dangerous views about blood transfusions.

    I am sorry this sounds harsh, but they peddle what is harmful, and the Pope is right to warn against them.

    In Christ,

    Anglian
  • SafaaSafaa
    All the modern time heresies are but recycling of old ones which had been defended by the One Holy Orthodox Church.
    I can give you numerous examples from the Holy Bible
    :
    + 1- The Parable of Lazarus and the rich man, as Cephes has illustrated.

    + 2- In the Transfiguration incident, “ 1: And after six days Jesus taketh Peter, James, and John his brother, and bringeth them up into an high mountain apart,
    2: And was transfigured before them: and his face did shine as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light.
    3: And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with him” Matthew 17.

    The Apostles Peter, James and John saw Moses and Elias alive and recognized them.

    + 3- A quote by the Lord God Himself, “ I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.” Matthew 22:32

    + 4- The Apostle John saw the souls of the martyrs alive and speaking to God the Almighty, “ 9: And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
    10: And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
    11: And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellow servants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.” Rev. 6
  • Unknown
    Matthew 7:15-16
    15"Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. 16By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thorn bushes, or figs from thistles?

    2 Peter 2:1
    But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them—bringing swift destruction on themselves.

    Matthew 24:24 and Mark 13:22
    For false Christs and false prophets will appear and perform signs and miracles to deceive the elect—if that were possible.

    To note, these things occur since OT era, e.g.

    Isaiah 44:24-26
    24 "This is what the LORD says—
          your Redeemer, who formed you in the womb:
          I am the LORD,
          Who has made all things,
          Who alone stretched out the heavens,
          Who spread out the earth by myself,
    25 Who foils the signs of false prophets
          and makes fools of diviners,
          Who overthrows the learning of the wise
          and turns it into nonsense,

    Jeremiah 14:14
    Then the LORD said to me, "The prophets are prophesying lies in my name. I have not sent them or appointed them or spoken to them. They are prophesying to you false visions, divinations, idolatries and the delusions of their own minds.

    Jeremiah 23:16
    This is what the LORD Almighty says: "Do not listen to what the prophets are prophesying to you; they fill you with false hopes. They speak visions from their own minds, not from the mouth of the LORD.

    Ezekiel 13:1-3
    1 The word of the LORD came to me: 2 "Son of man, prophesy against the prophets of Israel who are now prophesying. Say to those who prophesy out of their own imagination: 'Hear the word of the LORD! 3 This is what the Sovereign LORD says: Woe to the foolish prophets who follow their own spirit and have seen nothing

    HH Pope Shenouda's book is an impartial scientific and theological analysis approach concerning JWs. In his book HH is kindly debating them and you can read he is guiding them to the correct salvation path.

    From what I've read on the web I understand that the Church of Scientology is NOT a church at all (never mind its name and US licenses), but a kind of cult built on deceit. Always check in detail the history of such groups and by whom, why and how they started.
    In general one must know their obvious (and not so obvious) deeds, do not take what they say for granted while never discarding the testimony of those who left them, also understanding their tendencies, policies and reputation along the years helps a lot. It seems they have added their own "scriptures" and "revelations". With prayers and the Lord's Grace you may soon find out the truth: some of these groups are that dangerous and wicked they can be traced straight to the devil's den.

    GBU
  • carbozi
    JW's are a dangerous cult. Just about a week ago a 14 year old boy in my area died because he was a JW and could get a blood transfusion.
  • clayclay
    The child would have been really sick if he needed one, and if so they could have given him blood products and other alternatives. There is probably more to the story than what is put in the biased paper. That said, JW is blasphemy and heresy in the strongest sense of the words.
  • carbozi
    He had Leukemia and would have been fine if he could have had a blood transfusion.  His parents went to court to try to force the transfusion but the judge ruled that he could make the choice because he "seemed mature."
  • clayclay
    Hmmm. Leukaemia, that is such a broad disease, but he is a child so it would have most likely been aggressive, and yes, would have been best treated by venesection and blood transfusion, as well as cyclophosphamide (perhaps some innovative drugs against the products of a possible Philadelphia chromosome). I apologise for my very premature post, though I stand that generally whole blood transfusions are rare these days.

    But still, this boy died a martyr for something he believed in- he respected God's commandments to death. The just live by faith. Yes, the interpretation is highly unorthodox, but we cannot associate self-martyrdom so easily with the occult. Instead, we should focus that the religion is far from and denies orthodoxy, and thus is dangerous. Many people would think us dangerous because we would rather choose death than momentarily deny our God. These should not be the basis in which we admonish JWs.
  • carbozi
    I see what your saying, but it still upsets me to see a child die for a heresy, just as it upsets me to see some Muslim children get brainwashed and think that they are martyrs if they become suicide bombers.

    I think this case just illustrates one of many reasons JW (and any heresy truly) are so dangerous. As soon as people start straying from the truth of the Church, it just lets Satan get in and distort Christianity and deceive people.
  • mannanmannan
    I hope these help you:
      Therefore,brethren stand fast and hold the traditions which you were taught,whether by word or our epistle. 2 Thessalonians 2:15

      But these speak evil of whatever they do not know:and whatever they know naturally,like brute beasts,in these things they corrupt themselves. Jude 1:10
  • clayclay
    appropriate verses. thanks.
  • mannanmannan
    your welcome
  • Boricua_OrthodoxBoricua_Orthodox
    [glow=red,2,300]In the Name of the Father+ and of the Son+ and of the Holy Spirit+, the One True God. Amen. [/glow]


      The way JW's see Jesus is heretical. They say the Lord Jesus is really the Archangel Michael. Michael, according to them means "He who is like God". It says it here: http://www.biblegateway.com/resources/dictionaries/dict_meaning.php?source=1&wid=T0002528.

      They unknowingly believe The Lord Jesus to be inferior and created to the Father! This is an ancient heresy call Arianism. Arius was a presbyter (priest) in Northern Africa (Alexandria) circa 250-236 BC. His heresy was condemned and he was excommunicated by the Holy Council of Nicea (325 BC).

       Of course, the Holy Scriptures refute this emphatically in Hebrews 1:3-6:

    3 who being the brightness of His glory and the express image of His person, and upholding all things by the word of His power, when He had by Himself[a] purged our[b] sins, sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high, 4 having become so much better than the angels, as He has by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.

    The Son Exalted Above Angels
     
    5 For to which of the angels did He ever say:


         “ You are My Son,
         Today I have begotten You”?[c]       And again:


         “ I will be to Him a Father,
         And He shall be to Me a Son”?[d]

    6 But when He again brings the firstborn into the world, He says:


         “ Let all the angels of God worship Him.”

      So we can see JW's as neo-arians.
    Hope this helps :).
         
  • Unknown
    There was actually a sermon given by my priest, I will try to post it if I can. I was explaining and defending our faith against the JWs.
  • Boricua_OrthodoxBoricua_Orthodox

    Please post it, Anba Bishoy for our spiritual edification ;D. Will deeply appreciate it.
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