Among the Oriental Orthodox family of Churches, yes, but not in those in the Eastern Orthodox family. This means that the following would recognise your baptism and chrismation and hold you in full communion:
Armenian Orthodox Church British Orthodox Church Coptic Orthodox Church Eritrean Orthodox Church Ethiopian Orthodox Church French Orthodox Church Indian Orthodox Church Malankara Indian Orthodox Church Syrian Orthodox Church
The Greek, Russian and other Eastern Orthodox traditions would, in general not do so, although there might be local exceptions.
[quote author=Anglian link=topic=5419.msg72232#msg72232 date=1181427040] Among the Oriental Orthodox family of Churches, yes, but not in those in the Eastern Orthodox family.
If the question is would the baptism itself be recognised as valid, the answer is yes also in the case of the Eastern Orthodox churches (with a few exceptions), although this does not, as you rightly indicated, imply Eucharistic communion.
Im pretty sure that the Coptic Orhtodox Church won't give the Holy Eucharist to members of the Eastern Orthodox Churches. This is because of the split between the churches, in 451 (in which the Eastern Orthodox Churches also separated siding w/ the Catholic Church, until they themselves split from the Catholic Church later on)
Whether or not the Coptic Church Views their Baptism as Valid, I'm not to sure. Because according to H.H. Pope Shenouda III, in his book Comparative Theology: We Baptise Protestant converts, because, their Baptism:
(a) Was not administered by a clergyman (b) Was not considered a Sacrament (c) Was not considered to carry any spiritual efficacious
But im pretty sure the Eastern Orthodox Churches acknowledge this, thus its a lil tricky, you have to ask a priest.
Armenian Orthodox Church British Orthodox Church Coptic Orthodox Church Eritrean Orthodox Church Ethiopian Orthodox Church French Orthodox Church Indian Orthodox Church Malankara Indian Orthodox Church Syrian Orthodox Church
please excuse this order of the above churchs:
- Coptic Orthodox Church -> British Orthodox Church (Were a sparate church but now is part of the Coptis Church) -> French Orthodox Church(Were a sparate church but now is part of the Coptis Church) - Ethiopian Orthodox Church - Syrian Orthodox Church - Eritrean Orthodox Church - Armenian Orthodox Church - Indian Orthodox Church
John...i never heard about: "Malankara Indian Orthodox Church"
Hope the answers are helping. In terms of baptism, as you can see, although the Eastern Orthodox would recognise it, you would not usually be able to communicate.
You ask
what about sexuality? What of homosexuals and chastity and celibacy?
Homosexuality, like all sexual relations outside the sacrament of marriage is wrong and therefore sinful; the same is true of fornication and adultery; unlike some Churches we do not get hung up on one sexual sin - we condemn them all, much as we love the sinner him or her self, and we pray they will turn from their sin.
Chastity outside marriage is the obvious corollary of this.
Celibacy for those not married is enjoined by the Church. Our priests can be married, but not our bishops, since bishops have to be monks, and the monastic profession is not compatible with the vows of marriage.
Again, others will more knowledge will hep us out here, I am sure, but I hope this helps you.
[quote author=Anglian link=topic=5419.msg72286#msg72286 date=1181463798] Of course. What puzzled me was that at the recent Oriental Orthodox festival at Stevenage, both names were used!
thanks for clearfication. so they, as i always knew, 6 churchs.
Just for added clarification, The Eastern Orthodox believe in the same doctrine we believe in. But because of the spit at Chalcedon, which was over semantics, we split and as of yet have not rejoined.
Yes, that would be the position taken up by many of us here; but I am a member of an Eastern Orthodox forum where the expression of that view would be met with a great deal of hostility and would be rejected. You might ask why I remain a member? The answer is because it bears a witness to what we do believe, rather than letting others speak for us.
For anyone interested in these things, and for anyone who would like to see the evidence to back up what is being said here, do look at this site: http://www.orthodoxunity.org/
If you are baptized in the Coptic Orthodox church your baptism will be recognized by the Eastern Orthodox churches as well (and also by the Catholic Church for that matter). Recognition, does not however, mean communion. But, the Coptic Church and the Eastern Orthodox churches recognize each other baptisms. As far as I know, Eastern Orthodox baptisms are the ONLY baptisms outside of the Coptic (and Oriental) Orthodox church that the Coptic church recognizes. This is quite significant and one of the reasons I have a lot of faith that our churches will be reunited. If a Coptic and Eastern Orthodox get married, neither has to be remarried and the couple can be married in either church with the other recognizing the marriage as valid. In this circumstance, inter communion is generally granted as well, with of course, the permission of both churches first.
I guess a question I would have is, though, if you are planning to be baptized into the Coptic church, why does it matter to you what any other church thinks? My baptism would not be considered "valid" by a Baptist church, but that doesn't matter to me because I'm not a Baptist, I'm Orthodox. I don't think that when one makes the decision to be baptized it should matter whether other churches see it is valid. Even if the other Orthodox churches didn't recognize Coptic baptism, why would you need to be re-baptized? I would assume/hope that when you made the decision to be baptized into the Coptic church it was because you believed in it...
2 points I would like to say. I am 100% sure of these.
1. If a Coptic Orthodox Person decides to receive communion in an eastern orthodox church, the eastern orthodox will not baptise you again. No measures would be taken.
2. Opposite of Number 1, If an eastern orthodox goes to receive communion at an oriental orthodox(coptic), they need to be annointed with the Holy Myron(Chrism) Oil before receiving communion. This is basically the sacrament of confirmation like the catholic church, only they do something else which i'm not sure of.
In the creed we affirm our belief in One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church. We also confess one baptism for the remission of sins. Historically some ecclesial bodies are not in communion with one another. That doesn't alter the fact that there is only one church. If, after joining the Coptic church believing it to be the One, you then find yourself in the position (perhaps whilst travelling) that you wish to receive communion in an 'Eastern' Orthodox church you will need to renounce your former commitment and make a public declaration to that effect including a promise not to return to it and/or an anointing. You wouldn't need to be rebaptised (you might as an RC or protestant Christian).
Sadly we are separated so a decision has to be made and kept to. As a member of the Russian Orthodox church I find a closeness to all who use this site. Having made my decision I have to accept we aren't in communion and that is that.
I have a paper in French about a report from the Russian Orthodox church making overtures to the Copts in the 1860s which sadly came to nothing. Please God these overtures can be renewed.(I'll find the link if you like)
I have a paper in French about a report from the Russian Orthodox church making overtures to the Copts in the 1860s which sadly came to nothing. Please God these overtures can be renewed.(I'll find the link if you like)
if u can find the link that will be very appreciated.....
i'd love to know if this is different than the incident where the Russian government offering protection to the coptic church, a proposal which was refused by the pope at that time.. According to Orthodox11 the Russian church was never engaged in any kind of dialogue between the Oriental churches and the Estern ones...that's why this link might be helpful.
I thought there was a rift in the in the Indian Church, and there is a jurisdiction specifically under the authority of Mor Ignatius Zakka I, and another under an autonomous set-up. I don't know if the rift has been solved. There are also two separate jurisdictions for the Armenian Church (Etchmiadzin and the House of Cilicia).
[quote author=PopeKyrillos link=topic=5419.msg80615#msg80615 date=1198555139] 2 points I would like to say. I am 100% sure of these.
1. If a Coptic Orthodox Person decides to receive communion in an eastern orthodox church, the eastern orthodox will not baptise you again. No measures would be taken.
2. Opposite of Number 1, If an eastern orthodox goes to receive communion at an oriental orthodox(coptic), they need to be annointed with the Holy Myron(Chrism) Oil before receiving communion. This is basically the sacrament of confirmation like the catholic church, only they do something else which i'm not sure of.
The exception to #2 is if a Coptic and EO are married. In this case the EO spouse is allowed to partake in the sacraments of the Coptic church, in accordance with the Pastoral Agreement between the Coptic Orthodox and Greek Orthodox Patriarchates of Alexandria (2001). I believe there was a similar joint declaration made in regards to Copts who live in Syria if they do not have access to a Coptic Church and visa-versa.
For those mentioned reasons, the Holy Synods of both Patriarchates have agreed to accept the sacrament of marriage which is conducted in either Church with the condition that it is conducted for two partners not belonging to the same Patriarchate of the other Church from their origin. Both the Bride and the Groom should carry a valid certificate from his/her own Patriarchate that he/she has a permit of marriage and indicating the details of his/her marriage status up to date.
Each of the two Patriarchates shall also accept to perform all of its other sacraments to that new family of Mixed Christian Marriage.
It is agreed that the Patriarchate which shall perform the marriage shall be responsible for any marriage problems that may happen concerning this certain marriage, taking into consideration the unified marriage laws signed by the heads of Churches in Egypt in the year 1999.
Comments
Among the Oriental Orthodox family of Churches, yes, but not in those in the Eastern Orthodox family. This means that the following would recognise your baptism and chrismation and hold you in full communion:
Armenian Orthodox Church
British Orthodox Church
Coptic Orthodox Church
Eritrean Orthodox Church
Ethiopian Orthodox Church
French Orthodox Church
Indian Orthodox Church
Malankara Indian Orthodox Church
Syrian Orthodox Church
The Greek, Russian and other Eastern Orthodox traditions would, in general not do so, although there might be local exceptions.
I hope that helps.
In Christ,
John
Among the Oriental Orthodox family of Churches, yes, but not in those in the Eastern Orthodox family.
If the question is would the baptism itself be recognised as valid, the answer is yes also in the case of the Eastern Orthodox churches (with a few exceptions), although this does not, as you rightly indicated, imply Eucharistic communion.
Whether or not the Coptic Church Views their Baptism as Valid, I'm not to sure. Because according to H.H. Pope Shenouda III, in his book Comparative Theology: We Baptise Protestant converts, because, their Baptism:
(a) Was not administered by a clergyman
(b) Was not considered a Sacrament
(c) Was not considered to carry any spiritual efficacious
But im pretty sure the Eastern Orthodox Churches acknowledge this, thus its a lil tricky, you have to ask a priest.
God Bless
Now, what about sexuality? What of homosexuals and chastity and celibacy?
Taylor
Armenian Orthodox Church
British Orthodox Church
Coptic Orthodox Church
Eritrean Orthodox Church
Ethiopian Orthodox Church
French Orthodox Church
Indian Orthodox Church
Malankara Indian Orthodox Church
Syrian Orthodox Church
please excuse this order of the above churchs:
- Coptic Orthodox Church
-> British Orthodox Church (Were a sparate church but now is part of the Coptis Church)
-> French Orthodox Church(Were a sparate church but now is part of the Coptis Church)
- Ethiopian Orthodox Church
- Syrian Orthodox Church
- Eritrean Orthodox Church
- Armenian Orthodox Church
- Indian Orthodox Church
John...i never heard about: "Malankara Indian Orthodox Church"
here is some info on the Indian church
http://www.orthodoxsyrianchurch.com/
Taylor
Manigar
here is some info on the Indian church
http://www.orthodoxsyrianchurch.com/
i know that they are a church but what's the diffrence between, "Malankara Indian Orthodox Church" and the "Indian Orthodox Church"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_Orthodox_Church
I have to admit, this can get REALLY confusing!
Taylor
Taylor is right, it is the same Church, different titles.
Of course. What puzzled me was that at the recent Oriental Orthodox festival at Stevenage, both names were used!
In Christ,
John
Hope the answers are helping. In terms of baptism, as you can see, although the Eastern Orthodox would recognise it, you would not usually be able to communicate.
You ask Homosexuality, like all sexual relations outside the sacrament of marriage is wrong and therefore sinful; the same is true of fornication and adultery; unlike some Churches we do not get hung up on one sexual sin - we condemn them all, much as we love the sinner him or her self, and we pray they will turn from their sin.
Chastity outside marriage is the obvious corollary of this.
Celibacy for those not married is enjoined by the Church. Our priests can be married, but not our bishops, since bishops have to be monks, and the monastic profession is not compatible with the vows of marriage.
Again, others will more knowledge will hep us out here, I am sure, but I hope this helps you.
In Christ,
John
Of course. What puzzled me was that at the recent Oriental Orthodox festival at Stevenage, both names were used!
thanks for clearfication. so they, as i always knew, 6 churchs.
Indeed, and One God and One Faith - praise the Lord!
One of the things that struck me at the Festival was how wonderfully united all six Churches were in their love of the Lord.
In Christ,
John
The Eastern Orthodox believe in the same doctrine we believe in. But because of the spit at Chalcedon, which was over semantics, we split and as of yet have not rejoined.
Yes, that would be the position taken up by many of us here; but I am a member of an Eastern Orthodox forum where the expression of that view would be met with a great deal of hostility and would be rejected. You might ask why I remain a member? The answer is because it bears a witness to what we do believe, rather than letting others speak for us.
For anyone interested in these things, and for anyone who would like to see the evidence to back up what is being said here, do look at this site: http://www.orthodoxunity.org/
In Christ,
John
I guess a question I would have is, though, if you are planning to be baptized into the Coptic church, why does it matter to you what any other church thinks? My baptism would not be considered "valid" by a Baptist church, but that doesn't matter to me because I'm not a Baptist, I'm Orthodox. I don't think that when one makes the decision to be baptized it should matter whether other churches see it is valid. Even if the other Orthodox churches didn't recognize Coptic baptism, why would you need to be re-baptized? I would assume/hope that when you made the decision to be baptized into the Coptic church it was because you believed in it...
1. If a Coptic Orthodox Person decides to receive communion in an eastern orthodox church, the eastern orthodox will not baptise you again. No measures would be taken.
2. Opposite of Number 1, If an eastern orthodox goes to receive communion at an oriental orthodox(coptic), they need to be annointed with the Holy Myron(Chrism) Oil before receiving communion. This is basically the sacrament of confirmation like the catholic church, only they do something else which i'm not sure of.
Sadly we are separated so a decision has to be made and kept to. As a member of the Russian Orthodox church I find a closeness to all who use this site. Having made my decision I have to accept we aren't in communion and that is that.
I have a paper in French about a report from the Russian Orthodox church making overtures to the Copts in the 1860s which sadly came to nothing. Please God these overtures can be renewed.(I'll find the link if you like)
i'd love to know if this is different than the incident where the Russian government offering protection to the coptic church, a proposal which was refused by the pope at that time..
According to Orthodox11 the Russian church was never engaged in any kind of dialogue between the Oriental churches and the Estern ones...that's why this link might be helpful.
God bless
Aidan
2 points I would like to say. I am 100% sure of these.
1. If a Coptic Orthodox Person decides to receive communion in an eastern orthodox church, the eastern orthodox will not baptise you again. No measures would be taken.
2. Opposite of Number 1, If an eastern orthodox goes to receive communion at an oriental orthodox(coptic), they need to be annointed with the Holy Myron(Chrism) Oil before receiving communion. This is basically the sacrament of confirmation like the catholic church, only they do something else which i'm not sure of.
The exception to #2 is if a Coptic and EO are married. In this case the EO spouse is allowed to partake in the sacraments of the Coptic church, in accordance with the Pastoral Agreement between the Coptic Orthodox and Greek Orthodox Patriarchates of Alexandria (2001). I believe there was a similar joint declaration made in regards to Copts who live in Syria if they do not have access to a Coptic Church and visa-versa.
For those mentioned reasons, the Holy Synods of both Patriarchates have agreed to accept the sacrament of marriage which is conducted in either Church with the condition that it is conducted for two partners not belonging to the same Patriarchate of the other Church from their origin. Both the Bride and the Groom should carry a valid certificate from his/her own Patriarchate that he/she has a permit of marriage and indicating the details of his/her marriage status up to date.
Each of the two Patriarchates shall also accept to perform all of its other sacraments to that new family of Mixed Christian Marriage.
It is agreed that the Patriarchate which shall perform the marriage shall be responsible for any marriage problems that may happen concerning this certain marriage, taking into consideration the unified marriage laws signed by the heads of Churches in Egypt in the year 1999.
http://eocf.free.fr/essai_union.htm
God bless
Aidan
thanks very much for the link..it was helpful
(sorry for not having much time to comment on it , hope to have a chance to do that later )