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Question On Church's diffrence??
I'm so confuesd on question thta keeps popping on my mind. Can someone explain the diffrence between us(copts) and te greek orthdox's? Can we have communion there? if i turn and be greek orthodox will i lose my etrnity? is it diffrent faith or traditions? what but the catholic pple? does tht mean i lose my eternity as well? I hope someone can reply to me with a detailed answer. As this question constantly keeps bothring me. Ive relaised theres more than one pope fr the greeks(pope barholmew, pope peteros) . I could be wrong. I hope someone can enlighten me. sorry for my speling. ??? ??? ???
ASAP answer would be great
Pray for me,
Coptic Youth.
ASAP answer would be great
Pray for me,
Coptic Youth.
Comments
In fact, your question is really absurd. Imagine a patient in the one hospital you know for a fact is accredited--this hospital has all the necessary equipment and medicine to heal you completely; the best Physician is known for certain to operate in this hospital. The patient has witnessed many patients like him fully recover from their diseases. Can you explain to me why that patient would even entertain the thought of inquiring into whether he can leave that hospital and find treatment elsewhere? Why should you be bothered about other Churches?
Firstly thanks for answering my question. Secondly, wht do u mean by the nature of christ? Wht do they believe in tht we don't? Im curious and intrested in compartive theolgy, as today theres so many faiths/churches who claim to be the one? im Coptic but i just wnted to ask, say i was EO dose tht mean i wnt attain heaven?? or only Copts?? Isnt by ur works/deeds tht ur judged by?? UR saying the EO churches are closer than the RC? Wht about the Eastern Catholics, who are more traditional in their faith? Sorry for my spelling??
Please elabrote on ur answers.
Pray fir me,
Coptic Youth
I suggest you read a book called 'The Strory of the Copts'. This will show what makes our church unique.
Basically, the EO accept an extra 4 Ecumenical Councils. We accept the first 3, they accept up to and including the 7th.
The RCs accept 21 'Ecumenical' councils (not really ecumenical anymore!). You can look up the details here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ecumenical_council
And please, get that book along with Comparative Theology, by H.H. This deals mainly with Protestant beliefs, but it does expound our faith better.
Also, what can be better than our tradition? Our Saints? Our spirituality? Or even, our strict abstinence?
I just remember a very funny story about the Eastern Catholics...I have a girl in one of my classes that says she is Byzantine Catholic. Someone yelled 'homosexuality!' (indeed, American schooling :(). I replied that such is a sin, and she says 'No, it is not!' So naturally, I reply that of course it is. That night I went home and got verses from three different versions of the Bible that explain that it is and that such people will never enter the kingdom of God. She claims that her church has a special version of the Bible that does not condemn them.
I will let this incident speak for its self in regards to the ECs.
[quote author=Severus link=topic=6052.msg80621#msg80621 date=1198592744]
Basically, the EO accept an extra 3 Ecumenical Councils. We accept the first 4, they accept up to and including the 7th.
Minor correction here. The EO accept an extra 4 Ecumenical Councils. The Oriental Orthodox (which includes the Coptic Church) only accept 3. We do not recognize Chalcedon as an Ecumenical Council.
But what about the Secod Council of Ephesus?
If Orthodox 11 would tell me the diffences in DETAIL between the Coptic church, and his church(Greek Orthodx church) that would be great. I hope i can hear more responses that ELABROTE much more.
PRAY FOR ME,
Coptic YOUTH.
As I already suggested, at present there is no substantial difference. The differences are historical and rather complicated. Our Church inherited and remained loyal to St Cyril's One Nature formula, whilst the Chalcedonians chose to adopt a new two nature formula at the Council of Chalcedon, which the Church deemed to be a dangerous compromise of St Cyril's theology. Since then the EO have taken a number of measures to weed out Nestorian tendencies from within their communion and have regained our confidence in the Orthodoxy of their Christology. Joint agreements on substantial Christological principles can be read at www.orthodoxunity.org
Another major difference is the fact that at Chalcedon the Chalcedonians unlawfully deposed St Dioscoros and installed their own state-sponsored patriarch in his place. Since then, a Greek line of patriarchs was established to rival the Coptic papacy. Today there is not so much of a rivalry; our Patriarch and the Greek Patriarch are on good terms and have signed numerous agreements together. I already answered this question. It's a very silly question. If you did not understand the answer I gave you then at least accept that it's a silly question and ask it no longer. True faith produces true works.
Iqbal and Κηφᾶς have, as ever, given you the best responses possible.
I can offer another perspective as I am a convert to Orthodoxy. I was born into the Anglican Church, which I was taught was the orthodox Church for Englishmen. My belief in the Nicene Creed and the Triune God was expressed, as I then saw it, within an orthodox Church. As the Anglican Church adopted women priests and as Anglican bishops declined to believe in the historic creeds, it seemed to me that orthodoxy must lie elsewhere.
This was a difficult process, as my mindset is not protestant, and to come to a decision that my own Church was not orthodox was effectively to exercise private judgement. Many of my friends became Catholics, which was the course taken by many disillusioned Anglicans; for me that never seemed an option. Too much of what it taught seemed of later addition, and the doctrine of Papal Infallibility was an insuperable obstacle; although I have a great respect for the work it does in the world, and for the witness it bears.
For me Orthodoxy was the road, but unlike many people I was aware that there was more to Orthodoxy than the Russian or the Greek Church. The former seemed to me too preoccupied with Russia and too liable to be influenced by Russian politics; I probably hit it an a bad time, since the then main Orthodox bishop had just gone over to the Ecumenical patriarch, and the back-biting and the dissension which followed seemed to me very unChristian; that was probably unfair, but one can only judge by what one sees and experiences sometimes.
The other Orthodox group with which I made contact, the British Orthodox Church, which comes under the jurisdiction of of Alexandria, seemed by contrast eirenic yet firmly Orthodox. The people with whom I came into contact seemed unmistakably touched by the Grace of God. No pressure was ever placed on me, and all I experienced was evidence of love and service to God. As I came to know more about the Coptic Church this seemed entirely in character. A Church of suffering and witness where Faith was integral.
From the moment I was received into the Church I have had no doubt that whatever anyone might teach, He is in the Coptic Church. I make no comments about any other Church, and refer you to Iqbal's wise words. The Eastern Orthodox Church, like all Churches, has in it holy and pious people, and only the Lord God Himself knows who shall be saved. What we, inside the Oriental Orthodox Church know is that He is with us.
By all means, if you wish, find out what others believe, and you may come, as some do, to a sense of horror that the Orthodox Churches remain divided. But accept that the Coptic Church into which you were fortunate enough to be born, has the fullness of the faith - and go and show yourself worthy of this great privilege.
In Christ,
Anglian
If Orthodox 11 would tell me the diffences in DETAIL between the Coptic church, and his church(Greek Orthodx church) that would be great. I hope i can hear more responses that ELABROTE much more.
We are (sadly) two separate churches, not in Communion with one another. However, as Iqbal already pointed out, there is no real theological difference between our two churches.
There are, of course, other things that happened as a result of the schism at Chalcedon:
There are 'rival' hierarchies in Egypt and Syria - The EO Patriarch of Alexandria is His Beatitude Pope Theodoros II, the OO Patriarch of Alexandria being His Holiness Pope Shenouda III. The EO Patriarch of Antioch is His Holiness Ignatius Hazem IV, the OO Patriarch of Antioch is His Holiness Ignatius Zakka.
There are mutual anathemas against persons considered saintly by those on the other side - e.g. Pope Dioscoros of Alexandria and Pope Leo of Rome.
The fact that we've been appart for 1,500 years means that the people we recognise as saints after 451A.D. differ, and as a result we appeal to a different body of Patristic texts, which often differ in their focus. That being said, you will find people like Pope Shenouda often making use of the writings of EO Fathers such as St. John of Damascus.
We recognise a different number of Ecumenical Councils (OO 3 Councils, EO 7), and different local Councils. We therefore have a different body of canon law.
Other than this it's a difference of rite, just as the different OO churches differ from one another in this respect. If you have any specific questions on this issue, just ask. The OO Church is made up of a number of local churches, each with it's own Patriarch:
Alexandria - H.H. Pope Shenouda
Antioch - H.H. Ignatius Zakka
Armenia - H.H. Karekin
Ethiopia - H.H. Paulos
Eritrea - H.H. Antonios
Likewise, the EO Church is made up of a number of local churches, each with it's own Patriarch:
Constantinople - H.A.H. Bartholomew
Alexandria - H.B. Pope Theodoros
Antioch - H.H. Ignatius Hazem
Jerusalem - H.H. Theophilos
Russia - H.H. Alexi
Georgia - H.H. Ilia
Serbia - H.H. Pavle
Romania - H.B. Daniel
Bulgaria - H.H. Maksim
Cyprus - H.B. Chrysostomos
Greece - H.B. Christodolous
Albania - H.B. Anastasios
Poland - H.B. Sava
Czech & Slovakia - H.B. Christopher
OCA - H.B. Herman
Ok, I will write more on this later as I'm getting ready to head out, but I'll just make a few comments.
First, let me say I myself am Antiochian Orthodox (so in communion with EO). I would probably best describe myself as Eastern Orthodox with Coptic tendencies. =) I have often attended Coptic services (without partaking of the Holy Communion of course), and a lot of my catechis has been through wonderful Coptic priests and lay people, all with the blessing of my own Father of Confession.
So from my experience, I will say a few things. I believe to the bottom of my soul, that both Churches are -fully- Orthodox. Yes, the Copts have 3 of the ecumenical councils and we have 7, but we share 7 with Catholics and are so different - clearly adherence or lack there of to those last 4 does not either make someone Orthodox or make someone not Orthodox, since the Copts don't adhere to them and are Orthodox and Catholics do adhere to them and are heterodox.
I see a lot of polemics on both sides, but I see this mostly coming from lay people, not the clergy. I believe that if we trust our heirachs, we will put faith that they will not betray the Holy Orthodox faith. So when our Churches make joint declarations that there are certain circumstances when inter-communion is possible, then I have to believe that they have not make this decision on goodwill alone, but on a firm conviction that we are both Orthodox. If there's one thing you can say about both churches it's that we guard Holy Communion. There are no exceptions for other Christians, but they do allow exceptions for each other, so to me, this speaks a lot.
To the young man who is concerned about the Greek Orthodox church, I would say there's no reason to fear. In fact, from what I've read, in Egypt, the Greek Orthodox Church -will not- accept members of the Coptic Church unless they have been given permission from the Coptic Church (the only reason I can really think of this is perhaps marriage). Obviously if the Greek Church believed that the Copts were heterodox, they would receive them into Communion.
Finally, I just wanted to speak to the comment on the EC's. While they are Catholic, and shouldn't be confused with Orthodox (either Eastern or Coptic), what your classmate said was not in accordance with Catholic teachings and it would be wrong to assume she speaks for the Church. I have certainly met Orthodox who do not live up to the Holy Teachings of the Church, and I'm sure you've met Copts who have done the same. While you are correct in warning him not to be drawn to the EC, there are better arguments that to base it on the opinions of a high schooler.
Christ is born! Glorify Him! [Happy Feast of the Nativity!]
Firstly i would like to wish you a Blessed chirtmas. kol sanna wentoo taybeen. Thanks for replying, to my quires. Orthodx11 im just curious of the greek orhodox church, as a whole it seems similiar to the coptic church so i needed to clarify with you. Im grateful that u responded to my queries. Just a question here, are we (the COC and the GOC) getting more closer, futher? Are we ever going to be one? How long do u think it'll be? Its just very sad that the churches are all divided over what i read seems to be very minor issues. I hope soon would be the answer. By the way for evreyone else i wanted to ask (say) if i wanted to join any other oriential church how would i do so? Any opinions on the Armenian Apostolic Church? I searched on them they are similiar but difffrent. would there be any potiential harm? im currently in egypt visting. where would there be an Armenan church? Any one had any expirence, would be great to hear?
Sorry for my spelling,
Pray for me,
Coptic youth
Just a question here, are we (the COC and the GOC) getting more closer, futher?
Depends what you mean by closer. Each side would tell you that it has continued to believe what it's always believed, and so in that respect we're no closer or further away than before. Theologically, the Joint Agreements are just an affirmation of just how close we always were.
If you mean on the level of interaction and dialogue, certainly we're much closer now than we were before. Only God can answer that question. Personally, I can't see it happening in my lifetime. But that's just my opinion. You would have to ask permission for your Bishop to be released into the care of another Bishop. But since you're free to attend any OO service and receive Communion, I don't see why you'd feel the need to change jurisdiction. As I indicated in my above list, the Armenian Apostolic Church and the Coptic Orthodox Church are two parts of the same Oriental Orthodox Church and are in full communion with eachother. Any difference is one of rite (i.e. language, style of music, priest's vestments, architechture, iconography, etc.). No harm.
If I may ask, why would you want to switch? There may be no theological difference between Coptic and Armenian since they are in full communion, but then, the question would be, what are you looking to find there? Are you running away from something in your home church? Speaking from my own experience, sometimes when we're running around looking for something new, it's really ourselves that we need to examine.
Another thing, if you did find an Armenian Orthodox church, I can pretty much guarantee you that it's going to be in a language you don't understand. Even if you speak modern day Armenian, you won't understand the language they are speaking in the liturgy, and assuming that you are at least a teenager, it's probably not too likely that you are going to get to a point where you are comfortable in the language unless you are prepared to put a great deal of study into it.
Before you go looking for a new "Orthodox but different" church, I would recommend you talk to your Father of Confession and maybe read some of the lives of the Saints and try to focus on strengthening your Coptic faith.
Thank you for offering what in my opinion is very wise and sensible advice.
I would like to thank u first of all. When i asked about the sistr church i put in brackets (say) i.e. if one day i wanted too. There is no intention of me joining in the near future. I just was wondering about our sister churches, as they are diverse. Some replied to my query like orthodox 11 others i would say critisd me. My intenion was just to ask about the church its rituals etc.... I researched but it was not enough info for me. I hope some1 would help out.
Sorry for my spelling,
Cptic youth
I know someone's post was a bit strong, but the person I guess was trying to make you realise that you might be asking the wrong questions. The reason is, you basically either asked (i) is there a difference in our Churches that affect Salvation or (ii) is God a Just Judge.
God says He is Just(Jn 5:30), and that He gathers His sheep (Jer 23:3). Who are we to contest that.
Thanks for ur response. i wasnt upset of carbozis post, no i took it as postive criticism. i jus wanted to know if we are sisiter churches, whtas diffrent. an insigt would be appreciated. i know that our faith are identical. i hope no one misunderstoood me. im also sorry if i offended anyone.
Sorry for my spelling,
pray for me,
Coptic youth.
Nobody can really offer any valid theolofical or soteriological argument against visiting these orthodox churches. There might be a concern about pastoral care and establishing a relation with a certain parish in which one can receive constant and continuous spiritual care from priests and servants. Hopping between churches, even if you visit only coptic churches, can lead to a weaker tie with all of them. It needs a truly solid Orthodox person, in belief and in practice, to be able to overcome this as his only nourishment is the liturgy and the church services. Such a person is beyond the meetings and the "events" of the church established to care for the weaker parts of the body. If you think that the liturgy is your only spiritual food and that Tabeha is your mean of nourishment, and you have a life of prayer that is worthy of Orthodoxy, then go to any ORTHODOX church in OUR COMMUNION and you will be safe.
If not, and there are other factors that makes you want to go outside, such as a more liberal environment, then you better search for your salvation.
Hopping between churches, even if you visit only coptic churches, can lead to a weaker tie with all of them.
The Bible does say that people from every tribe and nation will worship God in heaven. Clearly, not every tribe and nation will be orthodox. So ultimately, we believe God is the judge and he is just. The essence of a Christian life is Christ. All other things are secondary. A denomination doesn't save...i.e) there are orthodox who are not living a godly life, catholics, protestants, etc. A certain denomination may have not diverted from the teachings of Jesus and the early church, giving it a more correct faith (as we believe the orthodox church has) but ultimately, it all comes down to your relationship with Jesus and making him the center of your life....To Him be all the glory, now and forever.
Certainly, it is our relationship with Christ that is at the heart of salvation. However, the context of this relationship is, and has always been, His Church. Outside the Church the relationship cannot be anything but dysfunctional.
The Orthodox Church is not merely one denomination among many others, it is the very Body of Christ: the Ark of Salvation.
[quote author=egypt! link=topic=6052.msg80958#msg80958 date=1200154363]
The Bible does say that people from every tribe and nation will worship God in heaven. Clearly, not every tribe and nation will be orthodox. So ultimately, we believe God is the judge and he is just. The essence of a Christian life is Christ. All other things are secondary. A denomination doesn't save...i.e) there are orthodox who are not living a godly life, catholics, protestants, etc. A certain denomination may have not diverted from the teachings of Jesus and the early church, giving it a more correct faith (as we believe the orthodox church has) but ultimately, it all comes down to your relationship with Jesus and making him the center of your life....To Him be all the glory, now and forever.
Certainly, it is our relationship with Christ that is at the heart of salvation. However, the context of this relationship is, and has always been, His Church. Outside the Church the relationship cannot be anything but dysfunctional.
The Orthodox Church is not merely one denomination among many others, it is the very Body of Christ: the Ark of Salvation.
All excellent points.
However, how can we approach this in this new 'open-minded' society? We are called 'closed-minded', and it is made to be an insult. What are we to do?
The other day, we were debating such subjects in school. Somehow it came up, and so follows the dialogue:
[argument about homo marriage]
...you know, there are other marriages then Christianity.
- No religion even accepts such illicit marriages, and even the accepted marriages are not actually valid...
But why?
- I could explain why, but you guys would think that I am closed-minded...
Too late!
[So I begin to explain why Protestants have no basis in histroy, are not related to the Mother Churches, and so on. You can say, I tried to back up my 'closed-mindedness'.]
So you are saying Protestants are wrong!?!!
-They are, in some points...
[The other person now just basically leaves the debate in shock.]
There are a few things wrong with the picture:
1. He used to be Catholic, but is now active in Grace Brethren Church.
2. He believes that whatever religion you belong to, you will be saved according to it's teachings.
3. I was surrounded by other similarly-denominated people, and so I had no support.
Also, one of the arguments against our Church was that the Bible supposedly has only two sacraments.
In such situations, what are our options?
The struggle since Cain and Abel has been always between the wisdom of the world and foolishness of God. Just read St. Paul's description about his state and that of the Apostles. If we are faithful to the foolishness of God and let God lead us through intensive prayers and a sacramental life, and just trust Him totally without the need of our stupid interventions, we will succeed greatly.
We are now trying to follow the wisdom of the world, trying to use science to prove our faith and secular reason to persuade others and justify our dogmas. It was never a matter of persuasion.
This approach fails on a regular basis. Even when saints intervened with their power in the plan of God and tried to exert their human wisdom , they were rebuked by God. How many prayer meetings are attended by the congregation in comparison to a sermon delivered by a hot-shot preacher with captivating style ? How many attend the the vesper prayer or the raising of incense early in the morning as part of the liturgy, or how many believers attend the liturgy from the servants absolution compared to the number that would go on a trip with the church?
Maybe we need to examine ourselves first before we go preach to others.
Orthodox 11,
excellent point. intah kewayes.
The struggle since Cain and Abel has been always between the wisdom of the world and foolishness of God. Just read St. Paul's description about his state and that of the Apostles. If we are faithful to the foolishness of God and let God lead us through intensive prayers and a sacramental life, and just trust Him totally without the need of our stupid interventions, we will succeed greatly.
We are now trying to follow the wisdom of the world, trying to use science to prove our faith and secular reason to persuade others and justify our dogmas. It was never a matter of persuasion.
This approach fails on a regular basis. Even when saints intervened with their power in the plan of God and tried to exert their human wisdom , they were rebuked by God. How many prayer meetings are attended by the congregation in comparison to a sermon delivered by a hot-shot preacher with captivating style ? How many attend the the vesper prayer or the raising of incense early in the morning as part of the liturgy, or how many believers attend the liturgy from the servants absolution compared to the number that would go on a trip with the church?
Maybe we need to examine ourselves first before we go preach to others.
Orthodox 11,
excellent point. intah kewayes.
So, as I understand, I approached the situation harshly?
[quote author=coptic youth link=topic=6052.msg80619#msg80619 date=1198568408]Secondly, wht do u mean by the nature of christ? Wht do they believe in tht we don't? Im curious and intrested in compartive theolgy, as today theres so many faiths/churches who claim to be the one?
As I already suggested, at present there is no substantial difference. The differences are historical and rather complicated. Our Church inherited and remained loyal to St Cyril's One Nature formula, whilst the Chalcedonians chose to adopt a new two nature formula at the Council of Chalcedon, which the Church deemed to be a dangerous compromise of St Cyril's theology. Since then the EO have taken a number of measures to weed out Nestorian tendencies from within their communion and have regained our confidence in the Orthodoxy of their Christology. Joint agreements on substantial Christological principles can be read at www.orthodoxunity.org
Another major difference is the fact that at Chalcedon the Chalcedonians unlawfully deposed St Dioscoros and installed their own state-sponsored patriarch in his place. Since then, a Greek line of patriarchs was established to rival the Coptic papacy. Today there is not so much of a rivalry; our Patriarch and the Greek Patriarch are on good terms and have signed numerous agreements together. I already answered this question. It's a very silly question. If you did not understand the answer I gave you then at least accept that it's a silly question and ask it no longer. True faith produces true works.
There most definitely is a difference in the theology of the OO and EO churches. After all, the OO churches theology based upon the Alexandrian school of thought and the EO church theology is based upon the Antiochian school of thought. These different schools battled local heresies and had different theological approaches from the beginning. I don't know too much about this, but from what I have read, the Alexandrian school read and understood the Bible in a more allegorical way while the Antiochian school had a different approach. these approaches make the understanding of Christ's nature different. That is why, to say that the nature of Christ issue doesn't make any difference in the churches is wrong. If it were such a minor difference then the EO and Catholics wouldn't have split away from us. Nobody splits up a church over a small issue. THe councils were based upon heresies. Heresies aren't small issues and never have been.
the EO church theology is based upon the Antiochian school of thought.
While the Tome of Leo (which, although accepted on the condition of a Cyrilline interpretation, has never been a standard statement of faith) can be said to have language that resembles that of the Syrian school, the general theology of the EO Church is a product of the Alexandrian and Cappadocian schools as much as (i'd say more than) it is a product of the Antiochian school of thought. One must also take into account the great influence of later figures such as St. Gregory of Palamas.
"Protestants" is a big generalization. They are numerous Protestant churches, all not in Communion with us. Some are somehow getting closer except for views on Millennium, the Virgin Theotokos, Intercession, Justification and faith in some Sacraments (they lack important Graces), some interpret the Scriptures strikingly differently and some are totally off course in faith and worship when compared to Orthodoxy.
GBU