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st. mary's appearance in egypt: true or false?
I've always believed that St. Mary's appearances in Zeitun and Assuit were true, but I then came across an article talking about apparitions of St. Mary throughout history, and the things that the author has written has caused me to doubt. For those of you who have time to read it, I was wondering if you could comment on what the article says: http://www.orthodoxinfo.com/inquirers/marian_apparitions.aspx
Most of them are about appearances of St. Mary to Roman Catholics, but they also mentioned the Copts and summarized what happened here:
7) In many ways the appearances over the Coptic Church of St Mary at Zeitoun, Cairo, were the most interesting and the most credible. They concerned not the Roman Church, but the Coptic Church, and Coptic bishops, including the Coptic Patriarch's representative, were among the millions of Christians, Muslims, Jews and non-believers, who many times witnessed the apparitions over a period of three years, from 1968-1971. The Coptic Church recognized the apparitions as true appearances of the Blessed Virgin Mary, as did the Coptic Catholic Church, the Greek Catholic Church, and the then Head of the Evangelical Church and Speaker on behalf of all the Protestant Churches of Egypt. Even the Egyptian Government Director of General Information and Complaints Department submitted a report to his superior stating that it was "an undeniable fact that the Blessed Virgin Mary has been appearing on the Coptic Orthodox Church at Zeitoun ..." The vision maintained a complete silence. There were no threats of punishment, pushing of Latin dogmas and practices, apocalyptic warnings and no trances.
The apparition appeared on the domes of the church for up to two hours or more at a time, always at night, but not every night and not at regular times. The Lady appeared in glittering light—so bright that her features could not be clearly seen—which streamed across the church. She was invariably preceded or accompanied by luminous "doves," "strange bird-like creatures made of light," which did not flap their wings but glided. The figure moved across the domes bowing and greeting the enormous crowds, estimated at times to be as many as 250,000 people. Sometimes she blessed them or held out an olive branch. The Patriarch's representative described her as "very quiet, full of glory." Occasionally she was seen holding the Child, or as part of the Holy Family. All prayed in their own way—Moslems reciting the Koran on their prayer mats, Greeks saying prayers, Copts singing hymns. The "doves" were consistently mentioned by eyewitnesses. Other phenomena were a "shower of diamonds," a glowing red cloud, and billowing clouds of incense. Spectacular and medically authenticated cures took place, although as at the other shrines, these were few in number compared with the multitudes of sick people.
This part really stood out to me, which is stated later on in this article:
Zeitoun stands out as a different from the other apparitions because, as mentioned earlier, the figure was seen over three years by senior members of the Coptic clergy, Catholics, Protestants, Moslems, Jews and atheists. Had it not been for the striking similarity between the descriptions of the Zeitoun solar phenomena and the earlier descriptions of UFOs, I would have found this group of witnesses solid and impressive, although it would still have been difficult to see why the Virgin should appear in this public way to all and sundry, when Christ Himself never took the opportunity to convince unbelievers by appearing over Jerusalem, where He could have been seen by Pilate, Herod, Calaphas, and all the people, as proof of His Resurrection.
This part is what caused me to doubt, along with the rest of the article, which while on one hand mostly attacks Catholicism... on the other hand it makes a lot of points about apparitions and such which I am not sure of how to respond to.
Jasmine
Most of them are about appearances of St. Mary to Roman Catholics, but they also mentioned the Copts and summarized what happened here:
7) In many ways the appearances over the Coptic Church of St Mary at Zeitoun, Cairo, were the most interesting and the most credible. They concerned not the Roman Church, but the Coptic Church, and Coptic bishops, including the Coptic Patriarch's representative, were among the millions of Christians, Muslims, Jews and non-believers, who many times witnessed the apparitions over a period of three years, from 1968-1971. The Coptic Church recognized the apparitions as true appearances of the Blessed Virgin Mary, as did the Coptic Catholic Church, the Greek Catholic Church, and the then Head of the Evangelical Church and Speaker on behalf of all the Protestant Churches of Egypt. Even the Egyptian Government Director of General Information and Complaints Department submitted a report to his superior stating that it was "an undeniable fact that the Blessed Virgin Mary has been appearing on the Coptic Orthodox Church at Zeitoun ..." The vision maintained a complete silence. There were no threats of punishment, pushing of Latin dogmas and practices, apocalyptic warnings and no trances.
The apparition appeared on the domes of the church for up to two hours or more at a time, always at night, but not every night and not at regular times. The Lady appeared in glittering light—so bright that her features could not be clearly seen—which streamed across the church. She was invariably preceded or accompanied by luminous "doves," "strange bird-like creatures made of light," which did not flap their wings but glided. The figure moved across the domes bowing and greeting the enormous crowds, estimated at times to be as many as 250,000 people. Sometimes she blessed them or held out an olive branch. The Patriarch's representative described her as "very quiet, full of glory." Occasionally she was seen holding the Child, or as part of the Holy Family. All prayed in their own way—Moslems reciting the Koran on their prayer mats, Greeks saying prayers, Copts singing hymns. The "doves" were consistently mentioned by eyewitnesses. Other phenomena were a "shower of diamonds," a glowing red cloud, and billowing clouds of incense. Spectacular and medically authenticated cures took place, although as at the other shrines, these were few in number compared with the multitudes of sick people.
This part really stood out to me, which is stated later on in this article:
Zeitoun stands out as a different from the other apparitions because, as mentioned earlier, the figure was seen over three years by senior members of the Coptic clergy, Catholics, Protestants, Moslems, Jews and atheists. Had it not been for the striking similarity between the descriptions of the Zeitoun solar phenomena and the earlier descriptions of UFOs, I would have found this group of witnesses solid and impressive, although it would still have been difficult to see why the Virgin should appear in this public way to all and sundry, when Christ Himself never took the opportunity to convince unbelievers by appearing over Jerusalem, where He could have been seen by Pilate, Herod, Calaphas, and all the people, as proof of His Resurrection.
This part is what caused me to doubt, along with the rest of the article, which while on one hand mostly attacks Catholicism... on the other hand it makes a lot of points about apparitions and such which I am not sure of how to respond to.
Jasmine
Comments
1) The author uses incredibly weak induction to draw the conclusions she does; such weak inductive arguments could quite easily discredit apparitions and miracles claimed by her own tradition, not to mention visions and apparitions claimed by our commonly held patristic tradition, and even miracles and visions accounted for in the Scriptural tradition; the reason she is blind to that is related to our next point:
2) Given the futility of this entire website's agenda against the Orthodox, the authors who have written against the Theotokos have been forced to pursue lines of argument whereby they aim to prove and conclude what they already presuppose; in other words, they are not motivated by an honest objective to seek the truth, but rather they are motivated by prejudice to uncompromisingly defend their own fabricated truths.
If you consider this article critically, you will note that the dissimilarities between the alleged ufo sightings and the apparition at Zeitoun are striking, and the similarities either mediocre or non-existent.
That the alleged ufo lights formed the shape of a cross, and that the doves sent from heaven also formed a shape of a cross is no remarkable similarity at all. The cross is a rather simple and common shape, like a circle, or a square, or a 'V', or a triangle. It is not at all inconceivable that these unidentified lights coincidentally formed the shape of a cross. Within the context of the apparition of the Theotokos at Zeitoun, however, the cross carries a distinct theological connotation, which is why of all the reports of the forms taken by these holy doves, the cross is the only distinctive form mentioned; in contrast, the ufo's were noted to form a cross shape, as well as a 'V' shape. Furthermore, at Zeitoun, the importance of the shape of the cross as a theological symbol was indicated in a number of different ways during the apparition so as to give us reason to believe it was not incidentally formed by the doves; the Virgin Mary blessed the people with the sign of the cross, and she was seen to kneel before the cross on the dome of the Church in reverence.
Thus, the only similarity the author could find was that both the holy doves and the U.F.O's were seen in the form of a cross. Nothing more to it than that. That's a rather unimpressive observation.
Let's now look at all the striking disimilarities between the visitation of the Theotokos to Zeitoun, and the U.F.O. sightings:
1) Incense was strongly smelt at the Zeitoun scene, and we know that incense signifies the intercession and hence presence of the Saints; there was no distinct smell of any kind at any of these U.F.O sightings.
2) The doves were not the main feature of the apparition; rather, a large bright robed figure resembling the Virgin was the main focus. She was not flying at various speeds or changing formation; she resembled a human figure and moved as such--she raised her hand to bless the people and knelt before the cross on the dome. She did not fly further away at great speeds as people approached, but rather stood there for hours at a time amidst a crowd of thousands.
3) There were numerous miraculous healings at the scene of Zeitoun confirmed by medical professionals; nothing of the sort occured in regard to these U.F.O sightings.
4) In the case of the U.F.O sighting, the lights were simply identified as lights; they did not resemble anything distinct; in fact, their figure appeared to be rather blurry, as per the account of one of the eye-witnesses: "If you look at glass which has got rain on, it was the same sort of inference. It was a splash. It was just too...eerie." On the other hand, the holy doves were clearly identified by many, many spectators, as resembling bird-like figures--some people mention doves, others mention pigeons (probably because that's the only bird they're used to seeing). Furthermore, as we have noted, the Virgin did not simply appear as some unidentifiable blob or splash of light, but distinctly resembled the figure of a lady.
5) The seven doves, as we have noted, made a cross-formation, yet, and in spite of what the author of the article says, the U.F.O's that formed a cross-like shape were not comprised of seven lights; rather, the shape of the cross was formed by four lights in a rather strange manner; it is described in one account of the incident as follows: "a central circular body with a leading fuselage in the front and three separate fuselages at the rear. During the period of observation the three rear fuselages moved so that with the fourth fuselage they formed a cross shape."
Do I really need to go on? The desparation of the author's agenda is clear.
Pope St Kyrillos VI, as we know, was a holy and perfect man of God who was gifted with incisive spiritual perception; his judgment on the matter was clear and confident, and the Holy Synod confirmed it unequivocally. The Holy Spirit inspired the entire Church to commemorate the event in the Synaxarium and it is now part of the liturgical life of the Church. No amount of futile and ridiculous argumentation can challenge the testimony of the Holy Spirit who speaks through the Saints and the Church.
I know that I myself am guilty of their shakey reasoning- trying to use jargon and other rhetoric to confound those who I debate against, in the purpose of masking the weaknesses of my argument. I think they use a number of fallacies- the straw man, begging the question, appeal to Authority etc.
Anyway, I hope I can also be as shrewd as wolves and harmless as doves; because indeed, many foxes are out there. Let's pray that we also do not become a stumbling block to the sincere seeker.
There's two problems with this blasphemy:
1) The author uses incredibly weak induction to draw the conclusions she does; such weak inductive arguments could quite easily discredit apparitions and miracles claimed by her own tradition, not to mention visions and apparitions claimed by our commonly held patristic tradition, and even miracles and visions accounted for in the Scriptural tradition; the reason she is blind to that is related to our next point:
2) Given the futility of this entire website's agenda against the Orthodox, the authors who have written against the Theotokos have been forced to pursue lines of argument whereby they aim to prove and conclude what they already presuppose; in other words, they are not motivated by an honest objective to seek the truth, but rather they are motivated by prejudice to uncompromisingly defend their own fabricated truths.
If you consider this article critically, you will note that the dissimilarities between the alleged ufo sightings and the apparition at Zeitoun are striking, and the similarities either mediocre or non-existent.
That the alleged ufo lights formed the shape of a cross, and that the doves sent from heaven also formed a shape of a cross is no remarkable similarity at all. The cross is a rather simple and common shape, like a circle, or a square, or a 'V', or a triangle. It is not at all inconceivable that these unidentified lights coincidentally formed the shape of a cross. Within the context of the apparition of the Theotokos at Zeitoun, however, the cross carries a distinct theological connotation, which is why of all the reports of the forms taken by these holy doves, the cross is the only distinctive form mentioned; in contrast, the ufo's were noted to form a cross shape, as well as a 'V' shape. Furthermore, at Zeitoun, the importance of the shape of the cross as a theological symbol was indicated in a number of different ways during the apparition so as to give us reason to believe it was not incidentally formed by the doves; the Virgin Mary blessed the people with the sign of the cross, and she was seen to kneel before the cross on the dome of the Church in reverence.
Thus, the only similarity the author could find was that both the holy doves and the U.F.O's were seen in the form of a cross. Nothing more to it than that. That's a rather unimpressive observation.
Let's now look at all the striking disimilarities between the visitation of the Theotokos to Zeitoun, and the U.F.O. sightings:
1) Incense was strongly smelt at the Zeitoun scene, and we know that incense signifies the intercession and hence presence of the Saints; there was no distinct smell of any kind at any of these U.F.O sightings.
2) The doves were not the main feature of the apparition; rather, a large bright robed figure resembling the Virgin was the main focus. She was not flying at various speeds or changing formation; she resembled a human figure and moved as such--she raised her hand to bless the people and knelt before the cross on the dome. She did not fly further away at great speeds as people approached, but rather stood there for hours at a time amidst a crowd of thousands.
3) There were numerous miraculous healings at the scene of Zeitoun confirmed by medical professionals; nothing of the sort occured in regard to these U.F.O sightings.
4) In the case of the U.F.O sighting, the lights were simply identified as lights; they did not resemble anything distinct; in fact, their figure appeared to be rather blurry, as per the account of one of the eye-witnesses: "If you look at glass which has got rain on, it was the same sort of inference. It was a splash. It was just too...eerie." On the other hand, the holy doves were clearly identified by many, many spectators, as resembling bird-like figures--some people mention doves, others mention pigeons (probably because that's the only bird they're used to seeing). Furthermore, as we have noted, the Virgin did not simply appear as some unidentifiable blob or splash of light, but distinctly resembled the figure of a lady.
5) The seven doves, as we have noted, made a cross-formation, yet, and in spite of what the author of the article says, the U.F.O's that formed a cross-like shape were not comprised of seven lights; rather, the shape of the cross was formed by four lights in a rather strange manner; it is described in one account of the incident as follows: "a central circular body with a leading fuselage in the front and three separate fuselages at the rear. During the period of observation the three rear fuselages moved so that with the fourth fuselage they formed a cross shape."
Do I really need to go on? The desparation of the author's agenda is clear.
Pope St Kyrillos VI, as we know, was a holy and perfect man of God who was gifted with incisive spiritual perception; his judgment on the matter was clear and confident, and the Holy Synod confirmed it unequivocally. The Holy Spirit inspired the entire Church to commemorate the event in the Synaxarium and it is now part of the liturgical life of the Church. No amount of futile and ridiculous argumentation can challenge the testimony of the Holy Spirit who speaks through the Saints and the Church.
Thanks for your explanation. Please forgive me for doubting such a glorious miracle in the church, I've always believed that it happened and still do but was troubled by the article that I left a link for. I appreciate the time you took to explain everything.
Jasmine
Doubting is not a sin; it is part of human nature. I would have to second His Servant's advice, that those who are not well grounded in the faith be careful when browsing the internet so as to avoid such websites that may play with innocent minds; the internet is saturated with attacks on God, His Christ, the Church, the Scriptures etc. etc. Even a site that claims to disseminate "Orthodox" information, turns out to be one that contains some of the most vicious attacks on Orthodox belief and the Church Fathers. Stick with sites that have been authorised by the Church.
Jasmine