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kids in the altar

Meena_AmeenMeena_Ameen
edited December 1969 in Coptic Orthodox Church
It really seems to bother me when their are really young children in the altar, i know their obviously their to learn but im talking about the ones that are like 5 years old and all they do is talk IN the altar. Just today when i was at mass their were 2 boys in the altar and were playing around when we starting doing the "great one another with a holy kiss" and theyre really loud. I cant even count how many time abouna actually stopped and waiting for someone to keep them quite or take them out of the altar.. Last sunday one of them got tired and sat down in the altar not long before we were about to start the communion.

I understand that they are just children and i dont blame them at ALL, but what upsets me is that most of the time, or even all of the time none of the older people do anything about it.. In my personal opinion kids who go in the altar and play around shouldnt be allowed in the altar untill they reach a certain maturity level. Because at the same time another 5 year old boy was in the alter quite the whole time which was perfect, meanwhile others are in their playing and laughing while the mass is going on.

Again i know their just kids but this is the altar. the THRONE of God.. shouldnt we take it a bit more seriousely?

Comments

  • clayclay
    i agree. I suggest that you raise it up with your priest with respect and be satisfied with whatever response- it his responsibility before God- not ours.
  • Basant TawfikBasant Tawfik
    it is great that u are concerned. When i am in the girls section of the altar for me to take communion or just in the altar, and i see little kids talking playing around, i tell them to stop. i would stand next to them to make sure they won't talk. even if the kids mother is there i still tell the kid to be quiet. but i just don't tell her to be quiet and that's it. i ask her,  do u know y  i told u to be quiet. if she knows the answer good but if she doesn't then i tell her and hopefuly she won't talk again unless she is telling someone else to be quiet. so maybe u should do the same. but if u are serving inside i can't blame u that u probably can't do nothing about it. ok!!?? hope i helped!!
  • ophadeceophadece
    Dear all,
    Nice post; isn't it about time we scrapped the argument of children being like angels and they can serve in the altar as soon as they are ordained deacons? My understanding is that deacons have to go through levels before reaching that level of being able to serve in the altar (epideacon is that level I think). So it is better for all the churches to adopt that teaching that younger kids have to start outside, learn hymns, and rituals, and then be eligible to serve inside the altar. Would love to hear your opinions.
    God bless you and pray for us a lot
  • PopeKyrillosPopeKyrillos
    Like you said before, you can't blame the kids. I solely blame the parents for this problem. Some Egyptian parents have absolutely no control over their children because they don't want to discipline them while others won't let the kid walk farther than a foot away from them. But the ones who won't control their kids, they are the ones who drive me insane. Learning how to fear God won't come by itself. It's supposed to be taught to the kids by their parents. Some do a very good job of teaching their kids to be respectful while others don't care to teach their kids anything.
  • Basant TawfikBasant Tawfik
    [quote author=PopeKyrillos link=topic=6234.msg82310#msg82310 date=1203352716]
    Like you said before, you can't blame the kids. I solely blame the parents for this problem. Some Egyptian parents have absolutely no control over their children because they don't want to discipline them while others won't let the kid walk farther than a foot away from them. But the ones who won't control their kids, they are the ones who drive me insane. Learning how to fear God won't come by itself. It's supposed to be taught to the kids by their parents. Some do a very good job of teaching their kids to be respectful while others don't care to teach their kids anything.


    i do agree!!!
  • Unknown
    I think that young children have to go in the altar. By saying this I mean that they aren't just left there by themselves but they need adult supervision. They may be also be split up so u only have one kid on the altar each sunday to avoid any messing. If we weren't going to let them in, then they wont learn as well. Trust me the younger you are the better you learn so when u grow up u know what u r doing and u do it efficiently.
  • Unknown
    [quote author=Meena_Ameen link=topic=6234.msg82292#msg82292 date=1203319365]
    It really seems to bother me when their are really young children in the altar, i know their obviously their to learn but im talking about the ones that are like 5 years old and all they do is talk IN the altar. Just today when i was at mass their were 2 boys in the altar and were playing around when we starting doing the "great one another with a holy kiss" and theyre really loud. I cant even count how many time abouna actually stopped and waiting for someone to keep them quite or take them out of the altar.. Last sunday one of them got tired and sat down in the altar not long before we were about to start the communion.

    I understand that they are just children and i dont blame them at ALL, but what upsets me is that most of the time, or even all of the time none of the older people do anything about it.. In my personal opinion kids who go in the altar and play around shouldnt be allowed in the altar untill they reach a certain maturity level. Because at the same time another 5 year old boy was in the alter quite the whole time which was perfect, meanwhile others are in their playing and laughing while the mass is going on.

    Again i know their just kids but this is the altar. the THRONE of God.. shouldnt we take it a bit more seriousely?


    Do you mean the boys that are already ordained as deacons?? Well, why don't you do something about it, adults are usually the ones that take control and the kids listen and if you have them disciplined like if they are being naughty then have them not serve or something the week after. If something is taken away from a child that they greatly admire and cherish, then they will do whatever to get that back!! Children are children, we can't rush them in doing something they can't do, and if you find that not only the adults aren't doing anything about it, but also their parents, why don't you do something about it, if it's bothering you the most.  Abouna might come up with a way to help stop them do that and what not, he might even talk to their parents about this situation if it's happening constantly!!

    Forever,
    Coptic Servent
  • jydeaconjydeacon
    As ophadece said, children in general(or according to the rites of the church) are not allowed in the alter whatsoever. why? because they have not reached the level in the deaconate that allows them to. Which small correction is Deacon not epideacon(sub-deacon). The way its supposed to be is the only people allowed into the alter is deacon and higher period. In older churches you can see that there used to be small doors where the communion would be given because it was not allowed to leave the alter at all(the communion that is).  the rites say that anyone newly ordained starts at epsaltos and works his way up not seeking the higher rank. This however has not become the case anymore. why? i don't know, maybe due to the fact that true deacons are hard to find now, or maybe just because that there is a lack of discipline on the churches part. whatever it is it does need to be fixed. and yes children are children but they can learn from hearing and seeing not necesarily from doing.
  • PopeKyrillosPopeKyrillos
    [quote author=jydeacon link=topic=6234.msg82333#msg82333 date=1203362281]
    As ophadece said, children in general(or according to the rites of the church) are not allowed in the alter whatsoever. why? because they have not reached the level in the deaconate that allows them to. Which small correction is Deacon not epideacon(sub-deacon). The way its supposed to be is the only people allowed into the alter is deacon and higher period. In older churches you can see that there used to be small doors where the communion would be given because it was not allowed to leave the alter at all(the communion that is).  the rites say that anyone newly ordained starts at epsaltos and works his way up not seeking the higher rank. This however has not become the case anymore. why? i don't know, maybe due to the fact that true deacons are hard to find now, or maybe just because that there is a lack of discipline on the churches part. whatever it is it does need to be fixed. and yes children are children but they can learn from hearing and seeing not necesarily from doing.


    I disagree with you. Children can and should be allowed to go in the altar and serve even at the level of an epsaltos. THE PROBLEM IS WITH THE PARENTS OF THE CHILDREN. I always realize that any child misbehaving at my church is because his parents just don't care. The other problem is that we can't do anything about it. The only people who can tell a child to behave are abouna and the child's parents. Those are the only to people that children listen to. Meena_Ameen, if you tell a child that isn't yours to stop doing something, it won't matter. They'll still do it. They don't care about what you say. God says to hit your children with IRON RODS when they misbehave. When the parents don't do anything about it, they are not obeying God. And on top of that, if children misbehave in church, the parents in the eyes of God are responsible. I am so fed up with some adults in my church because they are just real idiots. They don't care if their children are misbehaving but at the same time if someone tells them to stop, they get all mad. It's ridiculous. My advice is to talk to abouna. He's the only one who can help. Oh and one last point. Some parents do a really great job disciplining their kids but when their kids see other kids misbehaving, they want to go do the same thing. So when parents don't discipline their children, they aren't only being disrespectful to God but also they are being a bad influence on everyone else.
  • jydeaconjydeacon
    I hope you are disagreeing with me saying them learning from seeing and not doing, because there is no reason to argue with the fact that they trulely aren't allowed in the alter by the rites of the church, not because they are kids but because they aren't at the level of deacon. i'm not making this up its part of the tuqs
  • gigglyshygigglyshy
    [quote author=jydeacon link=topic=6234.msg82333#msg82333 date=1203362281]
    As ophadece said, children in general(or according to the rites of the church) are not allowed in the alter whatsoever. why? because they have not reached the level in the deaconate that allows them to. Which small correction is Deacon not epideacon(sub-deacon). The way its supposed to be is the only people allowed into the alter is deacon and higher period. In older churches you can see that there used to be small doors where the communion would be given because it was not allowed to leave the alter at all(the communion that is).  the rites say that anyone newly ordained starts at epsaltos and works his way up not seeking the higher rank. This however has not become the case anymore. why? i don't know, maybe due to the fact that true deacons are hard to find now, or maybe just because that there is a lack of discipline on the churches part. whatever it is it does need to be fixed. and yes children are children but they can learn from hearing and seeing not necesarily from doing.


    It depends on the church and its tradition. Not all churches disallow children from coming near the altar. In the Armenian Church, they have a curtain instead of an iconostasis. The subdeacons and acolytes and candle bearers needed to be there when the Gospel was being read and such and couldn't simply stay off the stage thingy where the altar is standing. But most churches including the Armenian, Coptic, and Eastern Orthodox Churches had enough adult male servants so that they didn't really need for any children to be near the altar (also becuase children are too immature and unreliable). Unfortunately, within Orthodox Churches-Eastern and Oriental in the United States and other such countries where the number of people involved in parishes is significantly less, they have no choice but to be a little lax on that rule. The role of deacons and subdeacons are just as important as the role of a priest within the church. Those are important roles that shouldn't really be given to little boys, but in order to make up for what few adult males we have as ordained deacons and subdeacons, a tradition of ordaining boys and young men as deacons or subdeacons has come into existence. Traditionally in many Eastern and Oriental Orthodox Churches, you had be married or decide to stay celibate before you get ordained as anything in the church, because it is not appropriate for those who are ordained to be dating around and stuff. Of course, we can't really enforce that with little boys! They're too young! Also, it's not that no child should be allowed near the altar... technically, as you said, nobody should be allowed to go near the altar unless they are ordained. Not children, not older men, etc.

    The role of a deacon within our church and in other Orthodox churches in the United States and other such countries is different and is not taken as seriously, unfortunately. From what I've been told, there are four diaconate ranks in the Coptic Church. The only way that the church will have better deacons and more of them is to have programs in which the various ranks can be trained within every parish. Education and practicing what's being taught is the only way to improve these sorts of things. A lot of boys or men who are ordained do not have the calling in my opinion, or were ordained as an effort by the community to get young and old men more outwardly involved in the church instead of treating the diaconate as a calling that God puts in people's hearts. Of course, I don't think it's like this with every deacon out there. I've met many deacons who I believe have the calling from God but I have met just as many who do it out of obligation or because it's more interesting than sitting as a nobody in the pews.
  • PopeKyrillosPopeKyrillos
    jydeacon, I know what your talking about. But even in egypt, it's not just the subdeacon who serves inside the altar anymore. All deacons serve inside. SO it's not just here in the states. In my church, we don't have anyone who is higher than an oghnostos.
  • joegjoeg
    PopeKyrilos, thats fair enough that in most places, churches no longer follow the rites of deaconship, and all of the rules that go with it, e.g. only deacons, archdeacons, priesthood, or anointed kings can enter the altar, or e.g. only those who have the rank of oghnostos can wear the Padrakhen. But this is due to lack of resources perhaps, or perhaps there is some other reasons tha these rites are vanishing, but we should as Coptic Orthodox christians, attempt to uphold all rites that were passed down to us, because it is written "Do not remove the ancient landmark which your fathers have set" (Proverbs 22:28)
  • ophadeceophadece
    Dear all,
    I strongly agree with jydeacon and josephgabriel. In fact, the discussion should be around what is proper and what is not proper, and I find it so proper, appropriate and impeccable to hold on to the rites, however difficult it is to hold on to them. This must be our role to stick to them and not to waste them away.
    God bless you all and pray for us a lot
  • PopeKyrillosPopeKyrillos
    [quote author=josephgabriel link=topic=6234.msg82426#msg82426 date=1203417560]
    PopeKyrilos, thats fair enough that in most places, churches no longer follow the rites of deaconship, and all of the rules that go with it, e.g. only deacons, archdeacons, priesthood, or anointed kings can enter the altar, or e.g. only those who have the rank of oghnostos can wear the Padrakhen. But this is due to lack of resources perhaps, or perhaps there is some other reasons tha these rites are vanishing, but we should as Coptic Orthodox christians, attempt to uphold all rites that were passed down to us, because it is written "Do not remove the ancient landmark which your fathers have set" (Proverbs 22:28)


    I don't disagree with you. But like you said, resources. However, I don't think that it'll be any time soon that this is again in effect.
  • Meena_AmeenMeena_Ameen
    thank you everyone for your opinions, and i do agree with you guys about the rites of the church... All i know is that it is my responsibility as a deacon to make sure the really young ones arent messing around, I know abouna always looks at me when the deacons are being to loud meaning for me to keep them quite or take them out of the altar, but why i dont understand is why he lets them in the altar in the first place if he knows he will probably have to send them out eventually... Anyways, we should all do our part.. If the parents dont care, it doesnt mean we should let it slide. Ofcourse the parents are making a huge mistake and if abouna were to talk to the parents of the children i think it would have a bigger effect that if I were to talk to the parents.
  • clayclay
    Remember, however, let's not use the rites of the Church to undo the law of Grace, and that is to love these little children and let them draw near to Christ.
  • joegjoeg
    good point clay  ;). Perhaps your abouna tells the little kids to serve inside because standing outside the altar has more, and more difficult alhan they do not yet know... or simply because the inside deacon replies are much simpler  ;D
  • abflab91abflab91
    The point is that kids will always be kids. you cant say that when u were like 5 or 6 yrs old, u never talked or mucked around in the altar. i was like probably the naughtiest and loudest kid in the altar wen i was at that stage of my life.what we should do is try and teach them wat is right, and as they grow up they willl become more mature both mentally and spiritually
  • ChristrulesChristrules
    People People...think about it how else will they learn....this is how i learned....all you have to do is be patient with them, have them do something in the alter so they dont act out.

    in Simple terms:

    H.H Pope Kyrollos himself would pick children to serve in the alter with him everyday, and he would have them do the deacon responses, and if they made a mistake and were interrupted by the head deacon and congregation he would yell at them and say "How will they learn if you dont let them try!"

    Keep this in mind. Patience is the key here and may God help us all do this. 

    God Bless
    May the prayers of Pope Kyrollos be with us all Amen
    Glory be to Our God Amen
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