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How do you learn your hymns?
alright guys, i'm really curious to see how everybody here learns there hymns. I'm an oghnostos in a tiny church in Margate, UK and (by tiny i mean 3 families come regular every sunday) and so there is no mu'allem to teach me. So I use this amazing site to learn from HICS and sometimes mu'allem Farag, and I love learning hymns - (addiction lol). My only other source is I used to go to a larger church in the north (in Manchester) and we did tasbeha every week for 4 years, an I still remember it- good times. anyways, how do you guys get your hymns?
Comments
I live in the UK as well, and we must have met as I have been to Margate church twice before. We can PM each other if you would like to know who I am, but for now, let me share with you. I think for me, I learn hymns through listening to them as songs; listen to them repeatedly over a period of time, and get to learn the melismata the way it is said (preferably from HICS), and then start testing myself on those hymns, and refining my memory. I am as interested as you to see how other people do it their own ways...
God bless you and pray for us a lot
One is able to appreciate the theology and catechism that is being conveyed. One is able to relate to the generations that have passed prior. One is able to extend his heart to allow the Almighty to pierce it with His Own Finger and allow a penetrance of His Presence.
The internet sites that you mentioned should not be a source, yet, since it seems you have a long preparation to go before being able to endeavor on your own.
Do not fall into the trap of showmanship and production that seems to be the majority theme when I walk into church. There is a clamor for the microphone. A vassal system develops and there is always one person with the microphone stuck down his throat. A proper cantor is able to develop so much that the words that 'well up in him are able to spring forward' and become an expression of his soul and beliefs in God the Almighty.
I see too many "muallem" 'wannabees' and not enough discipleship, and true service in the diaconate.
The understanding of the chants includes reading the Holy Bible faithfully, listening to the priest's instructions faithfully, and working in all aspects of the service. THE CHANTS SHOULD BE THE LAST THING ON YOUR LIST OF PRIORITIES RELATIVE TO THE OTHER DUTIES OF THE DEACON.
Stephen, the great saint, archdeacon, and martyr was a servant not a cantor.
I agree with you 99%. The only thing I don't agree with you on is that hymns should be preceded by understanding of the words, and of the meanings of each set of melismata, and the past era of our fathers. Trust me if I say this, it is a personal experience, I didn't have many deacons teaching me (for almost seven years now), and I can say that I am realising and discovering all the points that you fervently mentioned. Other than that, I think what you said I will take into account, because I do agree with every single word in it.
God bless you and pray for us a lot
The one percent you don't agree with me is the most important. Chanting can only be prayer when it is understood. Sometimes, if resources are not available at a given parish, one has to go to another. If one is in an isolated situation, then creativity has to enter with regard to pasting things together to achieve the same.
Enjoy God's day that He made for us.
when i started learning hymns, i learnd from my church deacons, where we have the best deacons in the US. we don't have a muallem, we have many muallemins.
most of the teachings were from Ibrahim Ayad original recordings, not new ones, Muallem Fahim, and HICS. that's for the general liturgy hymns and some tasbeha stuff.
Tasbeha i learned from being there every single saturday for atleast the last 6 yrs. that's how i also learned coptic, as reading and mostly understanding. the source for this goes to deacons of the church, which somehow goes back to Wagdi Bishara in most of the parts.
Right now, i learn from the teachers of the Seraphim Chorus, which is based on HICS, otherwise other cantors.
[quote author=ilovesaintmark link=topic=6255.msg82608#msg82608 date=1203608345]
Sometimes, if resources are not available at a given parish, one has to go to another. If one is in an isolated situation, then creativity has to enter with regard to pasting things together to achieve the same.
creativity is not a problem when saying hymns, it depends how creative can you get. you can't just be like a tape player that would just repeat we khalas. you have to feel the hymns and that sometimes adds a hazza from here and there. that's about maybe 1 hazza or maybe going high on a part......but not making up a whole lhn for somthing that already have one. you have to be able to diffrentiate between this and that.
I think you are bringing to light my previous points relative to service in the diaconate. There is an emphasis on the chants and everything else is to the side. I have had dialogue with you before and I am amazed that you make remarks with such a definitive tone without a basis.
How are you able to say that ? What basis are you using? What measure? Whose declaration? Have you traveled to the west coast? Have you gone to the north or the south? I have a feeling you are basing things on how many tunes are chanted.
Even St. Anthony the Great was given the opportunity to meet St. Paul (Anba Paula) and appreciate that he was not the only one to carry forward with a hermitic life. The diaconate is service first everything else second. THE CHANTS ARE THE LAST THING ON THE LIST of priorities.
How are you able to say that ? What basis are you using? What measure? Whose declaration? Have you traveled to the west coast? Have you gone to the north or the south? I have a feeling you are basing things on how many tunes are chanted.
for some reason i was just waiting for someone to quote me on that :D. well there is the answer. first it's not about how many hymns we say. sometimes we rush so fast in a liturgy. but just of other experience. you have to hear for your self to understand. and yes, when comparing to many of the other churchs i heard about from the west, the mid-west, southern, and even canada, i consider my church that way. sorry ilovesaintmark but i have a great pride in my church that is hard to destroy.
wasn't you who i argued with about this service and hymns and everything else. yes it was, and here is the post:
http://tasbeha.org/content/community/index.php?topic=4841.0
am not going to rewrite that again, the link will provide my clear stand even towards the my pride in my church, with what you said there before, and what i think you'll say if we start this discussion again.
P.S. Chants ARE part of services.
i personally go to tasbeha every saturday. so tasbeha is like the alphabet. i have been goin all mi life but since the past 4-5 yrs is relli were i did all memorization. as to other hymns i juss attend alhan nd well it juss sticks. i meen since u have an adiiction it should be asy for u to memorize things nd catch them. it liek a part of lifee.
/
mahraeel
plzz p4m sister in Christ
I am going to rephrase my words so that you understand where I am coming from. I don't mean that we shouldn't understand because we will be like senseless playback recorders; we do have to have some sense as minagir said, and on top of that, strive to understand. But, here is my point: for me as a beginner, I tend to read Coptic (as I know how to read), put the words to the tune, and then start to understand. The strife to understanding is there; I don't see a point in repeating hymns with a good voice without understanding them, but all I am saying is it can start without understanding and go on to understanding. Jydeacon stressed that point out, that when a teacher starts teaching in his church, he starts by explaining the words, and the ambience of the hymn. It doesn't happen with everyone and we shouldn't put ourselves down because we are less than others. Trust me; it is the work of the Holy Spirit. I am sure you are way past this level, and that is why you are not able to grasp what I am saying, but I still agree that understanding is all about our beliefs, and it has to be an inherent part when singing hymns. I hope I am clear now
God bless you and pray for us a lot
You words are well taken.
Minagir,
I paid a trip to your parish in follow-up to your previous notations and it was far from your description. I hate to put into those terms. I don't want to go into specifics because that is not my purpose. It is to put things into perspective and reality.
The broad remarks you made about 'they are the best' is not in the foundry for a spiritual walk in the diaconate, because I know the people that you allude to and they are far from that description. I am not going to get into names, because that is inappropriate. I will keep things in general remark.
Your parish is a GREAT parish, but it has nothing to do with the chants that are done there.
It is great to have pride in one's parish, but that should not blind us from reality and duty. I find that your posts carry extreme absolutes in their tone, and that is not the kindest regard. I find that there is a need to try to have the "final word", but that is also not appropriate.
Suffice to say, your comments should be labeled as your opinion, and I will tell you strongly I disagree, because I have seen and I know there are a lot better. But, I do not go through a ranking process. Save that for baseball, football, the SAT's, and everything else. I repeat the CHANTS ARE NICE AND THEY EXPRESS THE SPIRIT OF THE CHURCH AND ITS THEOLOGY, BUT IT IS BY NO MEANS THE FIRST DUTY OF A DEACON AT ANY RANK.
Ophadece,
You words are well taken.
Minagir,
I paid a trip to your parish in follow-up to your previous notations and it was far from your description. I hate to put into those terms. I don't want to go into specifics because that is not my purpose. It is to put things into perspective and reality.
The broad remarks you made about 'they are the best' is not in the foundry for a spiritual walk in the diaconate, because I know the people that you allude to and they are far from that description. I am not going to get into names, because that is inappropriate. I will keep things in general remark.
Your parish is a GREAT parish, but it has nothing to do with the chants that are done there.
It is great to have pride in one's parish, but that should not blind us from reality and duty. I find that your posts carry extreme absolutes in their tone, and that is not the kindest regard. I find that there is a need to try to have the "final word", but that is also not appropriate.
Suffice to say, your comments should be labeled as your opinion, and I will tell you strongly I disagree, because I have seen and I know there are a lot better. But, I do not go through a ranking process. Save that for baseball, football, the SAT's, and everything else. I repeat the CHANTS ARE NICE AND THEY EXPRESS THE SPIRIT OF THE CHURCH AND ITS THEOLOGY, BUT IT IS BY NO MEANS THE FIRST DUTY OF A DEACON AT ANY RANK.
hmm......WHEN
It's not important.
what do you mean it's not important. Of course it is. not everyone of our deacons are there everyday, week, or service. let me guess, you didn't read my response to you on the other post. here is part of it:
"You are generalizing all the duties on all deacons. Not every person is the same. As we had a deacons meeting last Sunday and our abouna spoke, he said it’s great that most of the deacon who are coming church are actually there. you think it’s easy for a great doctor, husband and father of 3 children and 2 on the way will be as free as a college student like me……no. but the fact that he still comes to regular Sunday liturgies, other services on the side, deacons meeting and review sessions as we do, this gives him enough credit. Not every person is the same. not every part of the chorus will be free to come and clean the altar with us even though they are the ones who actually taught us how to actually clean the altar in the right way. The important thing is that things will be done. Abouna doesn’t mind who does the altar. He assigns someone to do so, if that someone can’t, he asks other to do so."
I am still waiting for when have you visited my church........
A lot of what you say is just far from the truth. It is being clouded by pride.
I'm sure you are going to fire another note, because that is your routine. I refuse to get into that type of discussion or argument. I expect you will want the final post. It does not change anything from what I said and what reality is.
God grant you a good service.
My point is that there is a certain temper that is necessary for the diaconate. Our obligations are to the people and the priesthood. You show a lot of spunk, and that is good.
Huge misleading statement. As deacons, you're obligations are to the Lord of the house. and the house is lead by priesthood NOT your own intention if it was already decided by one of the priests.
For some reason I think you’re from my church. Btw, ilovesaintmark, what church do you belong to, into the Coptic Orthodox Church??
I did read your previous posts, and they prove my point. I have been there several times for various reasons. My presence is not to be an inspector.
A lot of what you say is just far from the truth. It is being clouded by pride.
i don't see how what you posted befroe the truth??
maybe can tell us the truth.
I did read your previous posts, and they prove my point. I have been there several times for various reasons. My presence is not to be an inspector.
I'm sure you are going to fire another note, because that is your routine. I refuse to get into that type of discussion or argument. I expect you will want the final post. It does not change anything from what I said and what reality is.
:D....you know me so well. not becuase of my posts only, but because you have seen me in St.Mark's church and you do know me. well how about we do get into this argument.
What you have said is not the full reality but what you want to be.
I waiting for your next essay passage…..
CHANTS ARE NICE AND THEY EXPRESS THE SPIRIT OF THE CHURCH AND ITS THEOLOGY, BUT IT IS BY NO MEANS THE FIRST DUTY OF A DEACON AT ANY RANK.
ilovesaintmark, i must disagree with you, i'm positive you know the ranks of the deaconate and the first level is Epsaltos which means chanter or psalter. His only job is to chant hymns. that may not be the case nowadays but thats his true job. other ranks yes its not the only job but for this rank it is.
Forever,
Coptic Servent
I am waiting for a response. You said am not saying the truth, than you tell us the truth. I am not going to let this go as the other post.........
I just have a small comment for ilovesaintmark. In regards to your response about the chants; i strongly disagree with you. The chants today are essential to the deaconate service! That is not to say that God only cares about the amount of knowledge we have of hymns, but that is also not to say that they are not a priority in the service of a deacon. They are one of the main requirements of our service! The service of the psaltos is to chant hymns. The deacon needs to be dedicated to his service and therefore it is important that he learn the hymns of the church, this is the most practical way we serve, other than following orders. These hymns are a form of prayer/service, so how can you say it is the last priority? It is not the last priority as far as i am concerned. The hymns are the highest form of prayer, and when one is chanting from his heart and understanding...it becomes something so beautiful that its hard to put into words.
GB
Tony
alright guys, i'm really curious to see how everybody here learns there hymns. I'm an oghnostos in a tiny church in Margate, UK and (by tiny i mean 3 families come regular every sunday) and so there is no mu'allem to teach me. So I use this amazing site to learn from HICS and sometimes mu'allem Farag, and I love learning hymns - (addiction lol). My only other source is I used to go to a larger church in the north (in Manchester) and we did tasbeha every week for 4 years, an I still remember it- good times. anyways, how do you guys get your hymns?
simply, I learn the hymns from listening to them by cd player or ipod and singing along in the car or in my room.
[quote author=ilovesaintmark link=topic=6255.msg82717#msg82717 date=1203691118]
CHANTS ARE NICE AND THEY EXPRESS THE SPIRIT OF THE CHURCH AND ITS THEOLOGY, BUT IT IS BY NO MEANS THE FIRST DUTY OF A DEACON AT ANY RANK.
His job isn't only to chant hymns. anyone can chant hymns. you do'nt need to be ordained to do that. the role of any deacon rank is to serve the church, not only during a liturgy but most importantly when there isn't a liturgy-serving others.
ilovesaintmark, i must disagree with you, i'm positive you know the ranks of the deaconate and the first level is Epsaltos which means chanter or psalter. His only job is to chant hymns. that may not be the case nowadays but thats his true job. other ranks yes its not the only job but for this rank it is.