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a little help please.
I kind of entered into this debate with a protestant who believes we are saved by faith and not works, and he used abraham as an example and this verse. Romans 4:1-5 "What then shall we say was gained by [1] Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh? 2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3 For what does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness." 4 Now to the one who works, his wages are not counted as a gift but as his due. 5 And to the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness"
if anyone wants to write something for themselves heres the link. http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=8BGhl8rfVL4
if anyone wants to write something for themselves heres the link. http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=8BGhl8rfVL4
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JAMES 2 !!!!!
JAMES 2 !!!!!
JAMES 2 !!!!!
JAMES 2 !!!!!
JAMES 2 !!!!!
JAMES 2 !!!!!
JAMES 2 !!!!!
JAMES 2 !!!!!
Faith Without Works Is Dead
14 What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him? 15 If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, 16 and one of you says to them, “Depart in peace, be warmed and filled,” but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit? 17 Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.
18 But someone will say, “You have faith, and I have works.” Show me your faith without your works, and I will show you my faith by my works. 19 You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe—and tremble!
20 But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead? 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? 22 Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect? 23 And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.” And he was called the friend of God. 24 You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only. 25 Likewise, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out another way?
26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.
Also in Matthew 16:27 Take Up the Cross and Follow Him
24 Then Jesus said to His disciples, “If anyone desires to come after Me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow Me. 25 For whoever desires to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for My sake will find it. 26 For what profit is it to a man if he gains the whole world, and loses his own soul? Or what will a man give in exchange for his soul? 27 For the Son of Man will come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and then He will reward each according to his works.
Faith is proven and crowned by good works. Also if faith is not constantly nourished by good works and prayers it will gradually fade then die.
From "Salvation In the Orthodox Concept - Part II" By His Holiness Pope Shenouda III
http://www.suscopts.org/stgeorgetampa/salvation_in_the_orthodox_2.htm
Excerpt:
Works are fruits required for faith
· “This is a faithful saying and these things I want you to affirm constantly, that those who have believed in God should be careful to maintain good works.” Titus 3:8,14
· “By works, faith is made perfect.” James 2:22
· Works are vital for an Orthodox Christian. The works that we show and display in our lives should be evidence that we are sons and daughters of God. St. James states, “Therefore, to him who knows to do good, and does not do it, to him, it is a sin.” James 4:17
Read also
http://tasbeha.org/content/community/index.php?topic=6129.0
http://tasbeha.org/content/community/index.php?topic=2967.0
GBU
James 2:14-26 (NKJ)
Faith Without Works Is Dead
14 What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him? 15 If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, 16 and one of you says to them, “Depart in peace, be warmed and filled,” but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit? 17 Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.
18 But someone will say, “You have faith, and I have works.” Show me your faith without your works, and I will show you my faith by my works. 19 You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe—and tremble!
20 But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead? 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? 22 Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect? 23 And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.” And he was called the friend of God. 24 You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only. 25 Likewise, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out another way?
26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.
Also in Matthew 16:27 Take Up the Cross and Follow Him
24 Then Jesus said to His disciples, “If anyone desires to come after Me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow Me. 25 For whoever desires to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for My sake will find it. 26 For what profit is it to a man if he gains the whole world, and loses his own soul? Or what will a man give in exchange for his soul? 27 For the Son of Man will come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and then He will reward each according to his works.
Faith is proven and crowned by good works. Also if faith is not constantly nourished by good works and prayers it will gradually fade then die.
From "Salvation In the Orthodox Concept - Part II" By His Holiness Pope Shenouda III
http://www.suscopts.org/stgeorgetampa/salvation_in_the_orthodox_2.htm
Excerpt:
Works are fruits required for faith
· “This is a faithful saying and these things I want you to affirm constantly, that those who have believed in God should be careful to maintain good works.” Titus 3:8,14
· “By works, faith is made perfect.” James 2:22
· Works are vital for an Orthodox Christian. The works that we show and display in our lives should be evidence that we are sons and daughters of God. St. James states, “Therefore, to him who knows to do good, and does not do it, to him, it is a sin.” James 4:17
Read also
http://tasbeha.org/content/community/index.php?topic=6129.0
http://tasbeha.org/content/community/index.php?topic=2967.0
GBU
Yeah i understand all that John_s2000, and the other person agrees, but he insists that we are saved by FAITH, not works. He said he agrees that works are important, but it is the faith itself which saves us. Which is why he quoted "Now to the one who works, his wages are not counted as a gift but as his due. 5 And to the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness"
and What is FAITH? IT is belevieng and SHOWING off CHRISTIAN WORKS....
Plz correct me if i am wrong
God Bless
Coptic Pharaoh
"Even the demons believe—and tremble"
then the q is: are demons also justified by faith alone? of course no
"..faith without works is dead also"
the second q is: could there be justification if faith is "dead also"?
find the time to read all this page (if you can later buy the whole book it's better)
From "Salvation In the Orthodox Concept - Part II" By His Holiness Pope Shenouda III
http://www.suscopts.org/stgeorgetampa/salvation_in_the_orthodox_2.htm
I quote from the book by HH:
“...without shedding of blood, there is no remission.” (Hebrews 9:22)
...
Conditions of Salvation through the blood of Christ:
The requirements can be explained in four categories,
1) Faith 2) Baptism
3) Church Sacraments 4) Good Works
Read also
Justification by Faith - Servants' Manual I don't think so because Jesus taught us not to be showy when you make a good deed towards others (your other hand not to know what the first one did...) it fits better as a discussion or a debate, please correct me.
GBU
"So He said to him, “Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is, God. But if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments.” "
Can't be any more straight foward then that... it's obvious - we earn a heavenly reward by DOING stuff, not believing in stuff alone.
Faith is not belief by any stretch of the imagination- and I think that it is a shame if some Christians believe that is what faith is. But the reality is is that most do not. They have done many good works- look at all their charity work for starters. And the difference between them and some other Protestants, is that they believe they are saved by the action- but the reason they did the action.
And essentially this is what St. Paul describes in 1 Cor. 13, that works without love counts for nothing. It is also the point of St. Paul in Romans- that his faith was tested and that was accounted for him as righteousness- not the act of obedience- but the reason for his obedience.
Let us not get into this very Catholic vs Protestant debate- it is a Western idea to polarise faith and works.
Hope I made sense.