Hello,
I'd like to ask why do Coptic Churches, and even Christians visit Lourdes if we do not believe in the Immaculate Conception??
Many Coptic Churches (especially in France) go to Lourdes each year. But, how can our CHurch allow that if it sees the dogma of the Immaculate Conception as heretical?
THanks,
Comments
Hello,
I'd like to ask why do Coptic Churches, and even Christians visit Lourdes if we do not believe in the Immaculate Conception??
Many Coptic Churches (especially in France) go to Lourdes each year. But, how can our CHurch allow that if it sees the dogma of the Immaculate Conception as heretical?
THanks,
wht's that....
[quote author=QT_PA_2T link=topic=6576.msg87203#msg87203 date=1210538650]
Hello,
I'd like to ask why do Coptic Churches, and even Christians visit Lourdes if we do not believe in the Immaculate Conception??
Many Coptic Churches (especially in France) go to Lourdes each year. But, how can our CHurch allow that if it sees the dogma of the Immaculate Conception as heretical?
THanks,
wht's that....
Mina,
Come on.. what's the answer!?
Tell me.. i'm curious
pray for me
joe
People who go of there own choice - well its their own choice... I don't think there is any official anathema of by the COC of anyone who visits the place... But you are correct - we view it as heretical
pray for me
joe
Joe,
But given that we view this (Immaculate Conception dogma) as heretical, surely ANY CHurch organised trips (with abouna etc) to Lourdes should not be condoned??
No?
[quote author=minagir link=topic=6576.msg87204#msg87204 date=1210539556]
[quote author=QT_PA_2T link=topic=6576.msg87203#msg87203 date=1210538650]
Hello,
I'd like to ask why do Coptic Churches, and even Christians visit Lourdes if we do not believe in the Immaculate Conception??
Many Coptic Churches (especially in France) go to Lourdes each year. But, how can our CHurch allow that if it sees the dogma of the Immaculate Conception as heretical?
THanks,
wht's that....
Mina,
Come on.. what's the answer!?
Tell me.. i'm curious
i really don't know. i don't live in europe!!!
I double dare u.
dude.....am not gonna do that. just giev me some info. er7am for God's sake.
I dare u to ask one of the Bishops? Ask anba Pola?
Anba Paula has visited me in my home and stayed two nights ;D
[quote author=QT_PA_2T link=topic=6576.msg87221#msg87221 date=1210546502]
I dare u to ask one of the Bishops? Ask anba Pola?
Anba Paula has visited me in my home and stayed two nights ;D
Gosh, don't worry, God will bless u for any suffering u may have had.
can somebody explain in smaller and simpler words what this discusion is about???.... what are you saying is heratical????
THe Catholics believe that Saint Mary is Immaculate. That she was born without the original sin.
THe ORthodox Church does not believe so. We believe she is pure, and sinless (without any fault), but we believe that she was born of 2 normal parents, and that despite her being pure, sinless, and virtuous, she was born with the original sin that we all inhereted.
This dogma was revealed in Lourdes to Saint Bernadette.
My question is: if we do not believe in this Dogma, why do Coptic CHurches make "Church Trips" to Lourdes??
Perhaps its best to ask Minagir, or JYdeacon... they know the exact differences better than me.
But for us , Saint Mary is pure, and saintly in EVERYTHING. We even say in the tasbeha of Tiatsoleb:
"O you, who is sinless, the pure, the Saint in Everything, the one who presented (introduced) to us God, carried on your arms". (sorry, i'm translating that from Arabic in my head as I type - Mina has probably got the right translation somewhere on this site).
Its a shame we differ of this.
[quote author=coptic pharaoh link=topic=6576.msg87234#msg87234 date=1210559299]
can somebody explain in smaller and simpler words what this discusion is about???.... what are you saying is heratical????
THe Catholics believe that Saint Mary is Immaculate. That she was born without the original sin.
THe ORthodox Church does not believe so. We believe she is pure, and sinless (without any fault), but we believe that she was born of 2 normal parents, and that despite her being pure, sinless, and virtuous, she was born with the original sin that we all inhereted.
This dogma was revealed in Lourdes to Saint Bernadette.
My question is: if we do not believe in this Dogma, why do Coptic CHurches make "Church Trips" to Lourdes??
Perhaps its best to ask Minagir, or JYdeacon... they know the exact differences better than me.
But for us , Saint Mary is pure, and saintly in EVERYTHING. We even say in the tasbeha of Tiatsoleb:
"O you, who is sinless, the pure, the Saint in Everything, the one who presented (introduced) to us God, carried on your arms". (sorry, i'm translating that from Arabic in my head as I type - Mina has probably got the right translation somewhere on this site).
Its a shame we differ of this.
If Mary inherited the original sin then how can we say she is sinless???
what's the difference between being immaculately conceived and being sinless???
plz clarify god bless
But I have been reading 'City of God' by St. Augustine, and he says this "Therefore if even in infants, as the true faith holds,are born sinners, not on their own account, but in virtue of their origin (And hence we acknowledge the necessity for them of the grace of remission of sins), then it follows that just as they are sinners, they are recognised as breakers of the Law which was given in paradise.
This can be reconcilable to the Orthodox view that we are born dead, hence in the state on sin, rather than actually that the infant having guilt of the sin of Adam.
It is like smoking and lung cancer; not all people who smoke will get the disease.
St. Mary had been in the state of sin, without sinning, hence her need for Salvation. She had the tendency to sin; but Divine providence she had not.
Whilst she had been born from old aged parents according to tradition (hence. miraculous), saying she is pure and sinless, does not mean she did not need the "new life" offered by Christ.
[quote author=QT_PA_2T link=topic=6576.msg87257#msg87257 date=1210603395]
[quote author=coptic pharaoh link=topic=6576.msg87234#msg87234 date=1210559299]
can somebody explain in smaller and simpler words what this discusion is about???.... what are you saying is heratical????
THe Catholics believe that Saint Mary is Immaculate. That she was born without the original sin.
THe ORthodox Church does not believe so. We believe she is pure, and sinless (without any fault), but we believe that she was born of 2 normal parents, and that despite her being pure, sinless, and virtuous, she was born with the original sin that we all inhereted.
This dogma was revealed in Lourdes to Saint Bernadette.
My question is: if we do not believe in this Dogma, why do Coptic CHurches make "Church Trips" to Lourdes??
Perhaps its best to ask Minagir, or JYdeacon... they know the exact differences better than me.
But for us , Saint Mary is pure, and saintly in EVERYTHING. We even say in the tasbeha of Tiatsoleb:
"O you, who is sinless, the pure, the Saint in Everything, the one who presented (introduced) to us God, carried on your arms". (sorry, i'm translating that from Arabic in my head as I type - Mina has probably got the right translation somewhere on this site).
Its a shame we differ of this.
If Mary inherited the original sin then how can we say she is sinless???
what's the difference between being immaculately conceived and being sinless???
plz clarify god bless
I think, from what I've seen in the past, the best person to answer this would be Iqbal. But, from what I know, we say she is sinless in the same way that we, who are called to be saints, are expected to be sinless. Thanks to her virtues, she was pure and sinless in everything. In the same way, (for example) thanks to my arrogance, and lack of virtues, I am always making mistakes.
So, she was pure and holy in everything. Being sinless is something therefore that is achievable, through God's grace. However, there is a difference between being immaculate and having the original sin wiped out from u. As Clay explained above, we, as Orthodox Christians, believe that even Saint Mary had need for salvation.
If Mary inherited the original sin then how can we say she is sinless???
what's the difference between being immaculately conceived and being sinless???
plz clarify god bless
First, I would like to stress out that we inherit the effect of the original sin, not the sin itself.
Second, being sinless is a state. I can be sinless for the next week, but not one in nature. Same to St.Mary. She was born with the inheritance of death as everyone. When the Holy Spirit over shadowed her, she became sinless after because she was carrying the divine God in her womb where she was not harmed, proving more that she was worthy enough to carry the ever-sinless Person, Jesus Christ.
[quote author=QT_PA_2T link=topic=6576.msg87257#msg87257 date=1210603395]
But for us , Saint Mary is pure, and saintly in EVERYTHING. We even say in the tasbeha of Tiatsoleb:
"O you, who is sinless, the pure, the Saint in Everything, the one who presented (introduced) to us God, carried on your arms".
"O chaste and undefiled, holy in everything, who brought God for us, carried in her arms"
http://tasbeha.org/hymn_library/view/359
[quote author=godislove260 link=topic=6576.msg87260#msg87260 date=1210606771]
If Mary inherited the original sin then how can we say she is sinless???
what's the difference between being immaculately conceived and being sinless???
plz clarify god bless
First, I would like to stress out that we inherit the effect of the original sin, not the sin itself.
Second, being sinless is a state. I can be sinless for the next week, but not one in nature. Same to St.Mary. She was born with the inheritance of death as everyone. When the Holy Spirit over shadowed her, she became sinless after because she was carrying the divine God in her womb where she was not harmed, proving more that she was worthy enough to carry the ever-sinless Person, Jesus Christ.
[quote author=QT_PA_2T link=topic=6576.msg87257#msg87257 date=1210603395]
But for us , Saint Mary is pure, and saintly in EVERYTHING. We even say in the tasbeha of Tiatsoleb:
"O you, who is sinless, the pure, the Saint in Everything, the one who presented (introduced) to us God, carried on your arms".
"O chaste and undefiled, holy in everything, who brought God for us, carried in her arms"
http://tasbeha.org/hymn_library/view/359
Nice response Mina!!
THanks for coming to my rescue (you're a good khadem my friend!).
--> So why then does our Church in France go to Lourdes for if we do not believe in the dogma of the Immaculate Conception.
To answer your original question is that its a possibility that the Church is not aware of people going to this. If the church is aware then it would be best to ask your FOC about it or any clergy member in Europe who knows about it.
Yes, as minagir stated we do not inherit the original sin but the corrupt nature that befell us as a result of this sin. ie a stain. During the baptism we are washed of this stain not of a sin. This belief is influenced by Western theology and has no grounds in our theology. Think about it, God is fair correct? If God decided that the sin was what we carried then we would carry the sins of our parents and their parents and we would be in a downward spiral where the burden would be so great on each generation later on. How would that be fair that we carry the sin of something our parents did? We did not chose to come into this world did we? Of course not, so we therefore carry a corrupt nature and not the sin of Adam or Eve or those of our parents.
To answer your original question is that its a possibility that the Church is not aware of people going to this. If the church is aware then it would be best to ask your FOC about it or any clergy member in Europe who knows about it.
My man, its the abouna that takes the people to Lourdes. Its become the Annual pilgrimage they do each year during the month of August.
not everything that is done changes the faith of the person.
[quote author=QT_PA_2T link=topic=6576.msg87283#msg87283 date=1210617980]
My man, its the abouna that takes the people to Lourdes. Its become the Annual pilgrimage they do each year during the month of August.
i don't think it can be called a pilgrimage. for some reason i don't think that word refers to what we do in our churchs. therefor i don't like it. it's more of a medieval word that used by those in europe, which we are NOT.
So, is it wise to go to Lourdes given that we don't believe in the Immaculate Conception? When I say "visit lourdes" , i mean the Coptic Church actually goes and sees the sites where Saint Mary appeared to Saint Bernadette to tell her that she is the Immaculate Conception??
Mina,
So, is it wise to go to Lourdes given that we don't believe in the Immaculate Conception? When I say "visit lourdes" , i mean the Coptic Church actually goes and sees the sites where Saint Mary appeared to Saint Bernadette to tell her that she is the Immaculate Conception??
well when you ask me this, you'll get into opinions, not facts. my opinion is sure, why not, go on learn. it't not going to change my faith but just increase my knowledge of how other believe.
i acutally thought that you would concentrate moer on the BIG picture, which is going to a catholic place in general. because we all do. HGB David does a tribe to egypt every year before Pentecost where they go to london, italy and visit many other religious places that are clearlly not coptic....and then they go to egypt last. this doesn't mean that we are all converting to be catholic, lead by ur bishop. but just more info for us to learn.
I go to Lourdes often with my friends,so i feel much much better now about it now.
Thanks!!