[quote author=QT_PA_2T link=topic=6567.msg87080#msg87080 date=1210384290] i forget to mention that this must be the best tamgeed for Saint Mary I've heard in a VERY long time.
I envy u Mina for being there. You've got some good deacons btw.
thanks.....i know, i take advantage in that. you can always here them on the live broadcasting. actually mikesl was one of them. what's weird is that this tamgeed was like the last time HG came to our church from maybe the last 2-3 yrs. noramlly he comes on St. Mary's vespers and than stays for the liturgy which most of the time is the Transfiguration.
You know, most people (well definately myself) will be using mp3's from this site to learn new alhan, or to use what you do in the USA as a template for us here in Europe (for tamgeeds etc). This is just a small comment, and please don't take this as a criticism in ANY WAY, but given the position your church has, would you not agree that it is best to agree with your brothers, the deacons on certain Coptic pronounciation issues? For example, changing the coptic "P" to "B". I know many are Egyptians etc, and the letter "P" doesnt exist in the arabic language, but that's why its all the more important to make the effort to use the Coptic "P". I'm saying this because I know many of our youth will be downloading your mp3's and learning off it, and we've really tried to teach them here in the UK at least, to use "P" instead of "B" when they see the coptic letter "Pi". Its "Pe'ekhristos", not "bekhristos". Pa-soteer not Basooteer. Its important as not only we want to sing together, but its our original language, and we should have some pride in how we pronounce it. No?
Many thanks for your khedma on this Mina... I loved the tamgeed VERY much. The only thing I will change is probably the "Assalamo-laky ya mariam" to the other "assalamolaky ya mariam" in the song book (i think that's much better for tamgeeds).
You know, most people (well definately myself) will be using mp3's from this site to learn new alhan, or to use what you do in the USA as a template for us here in Europe (for tamgeeds etc). This is just a small comment, and please don't take this as a criticism in ANY WAY, but given the position your church has, would you not agree that it is best to agree with your brothers, the deacons on certain Coptic pronounciation issues? For example, changing the coptic "P" to "B". I know many are Egyptians etc, and the letter "P" doesnt exist in the arabic language, but that's why its all the more important to make the effort to use the Coptic "P". I'm saying this because I know many of our youth will be downloading your mp3's and learning off it, and we've really tried to teach them here in the UK at least, to use "P" instead of "B" when they see the coptic letter "Pi". Its "Pe'ekhristos", not "bekhristos". Pa-soteer not Basooteer. Its important as not only we want to sing together, but its our original language, and we should have some pride in how we pronounce it. No?
well i persoannly love the live things. in GENERAL you can take them to be that way, but not in specific cases. we do many things that ppl somtimes dont accept but we would have our own reason for that. i agree with the pronoucation basis, but i don't normaly use it as much. why, because some times u'd be watchin what you're sayin rather than what you're supposed to be doin, praying. so it really depends. btw, i remember reading from someone online that the true way to say the [coptic]p[/coptic] is the noraml b not p....not 100% sure thoo/
Many thanks for your khedma on this Mina... I loved the tamgeed VERY much. The only thing I will change is probably the "Assalamo-laky ya mariam" to the other "assalamolaky ya mariam" in the song book (i think that's much better for tamgeeds).
are you talking about the text library or what exactly? anyway if i'd put it, i'd rather "Assalamo-laky ya mariam", easy to understnad better than all in one long word, harder to read. since meaning has no point hear, ur main goal is that you can read it. that's when i use "-" to devide words in arabic and mostly in coptic too.
[quote author=gergesezzat link=topic=6567.msg87054#msg87054 date=1210364854] Fantastic Shenoda, that what I am looking for. and I am waiting for the other recording.
Dear QT_PA_2T, I don't think the pronunciation you are referring to is the right one anyway. This is actually not a genuine Coptic pronunciation but a pure modern Greek one that has been applied to the Coptic language. This to me is wrong. I am sure you have read through most of the other posts here and on coptichymns.net about the current debate of the right way pronouncing the Coptic language, and they all point out to the fact that these ways of pronunciation are not 100% authentic. My suggestion is yes learn it the way other cantors say it, keeping in mind that there is no definite answer about what is the perfect way of pronouncing between all of our Coptic churches. What a pity! God bless you and pray for us a lot
[quote author=ophadece link=topic=6567.msg87125#msg87125 date=1210423972] Dear QT_PA_2T, I don't think the pronunciation you are referring to is the right one anyway. This is actually not a genuine Coptic pronunciation but a pure modern Greek one that has been applied to the Coptic language. This to me is wrong. I am sure you have read through most of the other posts here and on coptichymns.net about the current debate of the right way pronouncing the Coptic language, and they all point out to the fact that these ways of pronunciation are not 100% authentic. My suggestion is yes learn it the way other cantors say it, keeping in mind that there is no definite answer about what is the perfect way of pronouncing between all of our Coptic churches. What a pity! God bless you and pray for us a lot
[quote author=minagir link=topic=6567.msg87141#msg87141 date=1210440655] [quote author=ophadece link=topic=6567.msg87125#msg87125 date=1210423972] Dear QT_PA_2T, I don't think the pronunciation you are referring to is the right one anyway. This is actually not a genuine Coptic pronunciation but a pure modern Greek one that has been applied to the Coptic language. This to me is wrong. I am sure you have read through most of the other posts here and on coptichymns.net about the current debate of the right way pronouncing the Coptic language, and they all point out to the fact that these ways of pronunciation are not 100% authentic. My suggestion is yes learn it the way other cantors say it, keeping in mind that there is no definite answer about what is the perfect way of pronouncing between all of our Coptic churches. What a pity! God bless you and pray for us a lot
i guess i was right about the b and p.....;)
lol... u were right in that its we should use both so as to learn to sing together.
I just called Abouna, and my main man tells me its "Pi-EKHRISTOS"!!
Read it and weep! You want more proof?? Go to www.remenkimi.com - i did the Coptic grammer course nearly 2 months ago. Look at examples they give for the coptic letter "Pi".
lol... ya mina.. ya mina.. how many times did i want to put you under my wings like a chicken with its little chicken.. but you were not willing. Why!????!!!!
[quote author=QT_PA_2T link=topic=6567.msg87146#msg87146 date=1210442493] [quote author=minagir link=topic=6567.msg87141#msg87141 date=1210440655] [quote author=ophadece link=topic=6567.msg87125#msg87125 date=1210423972] Dear QT_PA_2T, I don't think the pronunciation you are referring to is the right one anyway. This is actually not a genuine Coptic pronunciation but a pure modern Greek one that has been applied to the Coptic language. This to me is wrong. I am sure you have read through most of the other posts here and on coptichymns.net about the current debate of the right way pronouncing the Coptic language, and they all point out to the fact that these ways of pronunciation are not 100% authentic. My suggestion is yes learn it the way other cantors say it, keeping in mind that there is no definite answer about what is the perfect way of pronouncing between all of our Coptic churches. What a pity! God bless you and pray for us a lot
i guess i was right about the b and p.....;)
lol... u were right in that its we should use both so as to learn to sing together.
I just called Abouna, and my main man tells me its "Pi-EKHRISTOS"!!
Read it and weep! You want more proof?? Go to www.remenkimi.com - i did the Coptic grammer course nearly 2 months ago. Look at examples they give for the coptic letter "Pi".
lol... ya mina.. ya mina.. how many times did i want to put you under my wings like a chicken with its little chicken.. but you were not willing. Why!????!!!!
lol.....i just rather not. I am MINA, i'd stay that way........forever.
[quote author=ophadece link=topic=6567.msg87125#msg87125 date=1210423972] Dear QT_PA_2T, I don't think the pronunciation you are referring to is the right one anyway. This is actually not a genuine Coptic pronunciation but a pure modern Greek one that has been applied to the Coptic language. This to me is wrong. I am sure you have read through most of the other posts here and on coptichymns.net about the current debate of the right way pronouncing the Coptic language, and they all point out to the fact that these ways of pronunciation are not 100% authentic. My suggestion is yes learn it the way other cantors say it, keeping in mind that there is no definite answer about what is the perfect way of pronouncing between all of our Coptic churches. What a pity! God bless you and pray for us a lot
Hi Oph,
Please take the coptic grammer course (remenkimi or ANYWHERE u want) that clearly explains we have the letter "Pi" and its pronouciation rules "Apip" NOT abeeb etc (for the coptic month). Its "P" , not "B".
Thanks for everyone for trying to make an effort to protect our beautiful Coptic language.
[quote author=ophadece link=topic=6567.msg87126#msg87126 date=1210424022] Thanks Shnoda, I also downloaded the file and I hope you don't mind that. God bless you all and pray for us a lot
it`s a pleasure ophadece to feel like u have done something good that helped someone even if it was very little thing. hope u like it :D
Dear QT_PA_2T, With all due respect to Rmenkimi website and their grammar course, that is based on the Greco-Bohairic rules of pronunciation, which to me is not genuine. I used to think you were born in Egypt and travelled abroad at a young age, but it seems that this is not the case. If you were, you would have understood that this kind of pronunciation is so funny; "Apeep"; rather funny. Please trust my words. I even read a book recently about the hieroglyphic language (the precedent of Coptic) and the months in Egypt are not pronounced as in Greco-Bohairic ways. The month you were referring to is pronounced as "Abib", which makes more sense due to the fact that Coptic didn't have a "p" sound. It is also clear you weren't interested to read the topics about Coptic language on this website, or on coptichymns.net. Dear Shnoda, Thanks again man. God bless you all and pray for us a lot
[quote author=ophadece link=topic=6567.msg87158#msg87158 date=1210455688] Dear QT_PA_2T, With all due respect to Rmenkimi website and their grammar course, that is based on the Greco-Bohairic rules of pronunciation, which to me is not genuine. I used to think you were born in Egypt and travelled abroad at a young age, but it seems that this is not the case. If you were, you would have understood that this kind of pronunciation is so funny; "Apeep"; rather funny. Please trust my words. I even read a book recently about the hieroglyphic language (the precedent of Coptic) and the months in Egypt are not pronounced as in Greco-Bohairic ways. The month you were referring to is pronounced as "Abib", which makes more sense due to the fact that Coptic didn't have a "p" sound. It is also clear you weren't interested to read the topics about Coptic language on this website, or on coptichymns.net. Dear Shnoda, Thanks again man. God bless you all and pray for us a lot
I just called abouna before telling you that. THen I checked on remenkimi. THen I checked on another website that teaches Coptic Grammer.
I'm sorry, I'm with abouna. Regardless of where I was born, or where I am, or what I age I came, its irrelevant my friend.
Since a young age, our mo3alim taught us this in Church. In fact, he'd get really upset with me over it as I often did the mistake of mixing "B" with "P" when I was younger.
I have a good idea. Abouna Pigol Bassily is fluent in Coptic. So are his kids. I can easily ask them if you want?
Let me call abouna Pigol. He's really fluent in Coptic.
Logically, its the letter "Pi". If its "Pi" - its not gonna be pronounced as "Bye". Is it??? That's why God gave us other letters for the "B" sound. And, yes, I think apeep sounds just fine the way it is.
But.. i'm not disputing this. Its clear that Mina and yourself have a strong understanding of Coptic. I just happened to be around people that taught me differently. But regardless, we need closure as the change between "P" and "B" effects the mp3's from what we are learning from. I mean, if it IS "B" and not "P" - i don't mind, so long as we ALL follow the same rules.
You see what I mean??
And yes, I tried to go to coptichymns.net but I couldnt find the link u mentioned.
I get the impression that you are not happy with such lessons.. could you provide us then with the link of what to you is correct, but it should come from an official source of the Coptic Orthodox Church, and I'd be happy to change the "Pi" into "Bye".
Dear QT_PA_2T, I don't agree with the pronunciation of "bye" anyway, but I think it should be read as "bei", and I am basing my pronunciation on the teachings of Fr. Shenouda Maher, who was assigned by Pope Shenouda to find out the correct Bohairic rules of grammar - having said that things were just made up as Greco-bohairic for some other reasons. I would also think that it would be a great idea if you ask Fr. Bigol, since he is definitely more well-learned and well-informed than me and I can then see where I went wrong. However, I am not sure if he follows Fr. Shenouda's teachings, but maybe he can compare Coptic used in the church, and Coptic taught according to Fr. Shenouda. PS: a Sunday school teacher long ago with a master in Coptic language taught me the same as your mo3allim, but I found out that that wasn't 100% correct God bless you and pray for us a lot.
[quote author=ophadece link=topic=6567.msg87292#msg87292 date=1210619904] Dear QT_PA_2T, I don't agree with the pronunciation of "bye" anyway, but I think it should be read as "bei", and I am basing my pronunciation on the teachings of Fr. Shenouda Maher, who was assigned by Pope Shenouda to find out the correct Bohairic rules of grammar - having said that things were just made up as Greco-bohairic for some other reasons. I would also think that it would be a great idea if you ask Fr. Bigol, since he is definitely more well-learned and well-informed than me and I can then see where I went wrong. However, I am not sure if he follows Fr. Shenouda's teachings, but maybe he can compare Coptic used in the church, and Coptic taught according to Fr. Shenouda. PS: a Sunday school teacher long ago with a master in Coptic language taught me the same as your mo3allim, but I found out that that wasn't 100% correct God bless you and pray for us a lot.
Hi Oph,
Actually, we should open a new thread for this. However, this topic has proved immensely interesting as it has given me the chance the dive into the History of our Coptic language and our Church History to learn more.
Basically, what I've understood so far is that there are MANY dialects of the Coptic language. MANY.
In the same way there are many British dialects, there is the Queen's English, there is the Cockney dialect, there is the Southern dialect, there is the brummie dialect, there is the Scottish dialect, there is the welsh dialect...
Now, pronouncing "Pi" as "P" is a dialect. Apparently, there was a Pope that insisted the dialect be analagous to the Greek dialect (They wanted CHurch unity at the time). At that time, the P was alredy a P. It was other letters they wanted accordance on.
From my understanding, and perhaps u can correct this if u know better because i don't trust 100% wikipedia, is that the influence of arabic on the Coptic language resulted in another dialect. The introduction of the "B" replacing the "P" sound.
Our mo3alim taught us that we should NOT pronounce it as "B". It should always be "P", and he said it was due to the arab influence on the language. (as far as I remember). Our Church in the UK is really close to the Greeks (i mean, we mix with them a lot), sometimes, i get the impression our mo3alims are greek when they speak... it sounds that way.
ANyway, like i was telling mina, tasbeha.org have in fact transliterated the tasbeha, and have used P for P. So, given that they've done this, why not stick to that??
Its true that the "B" replacing the "P" is a dialect in its own right, but I'd prefer to speak using sounds that alienate me from anything islamic. (sorry to say). That's me personally.
As I said to Mina, its up to u. If you wish to go with the "B" and not "P", go ahead, but change then all the transliteration. We've been publishing books for the church for the last 25years in the UK, and we've used "P" for "P".
So long as we can pray together, that's all i care for. If there's a mix, (i.e. one half of the church is pronouncing it different than the other), then the sound can be very distorted, and this distracts prayer. I, believe it or not, when i sing, I actually don't sing. I stay silent and pray when I hear the words being sung. I am not at the spiritual level to pray this way if there is dawsha when they sing.
Agree amongst yourselves (between u and mina etc) and decide what dialect u wish. Let us know afterwards, but stick to ONE thing at least. Don't tell us to pronounce something as "B" if you've transliterated it yourselves with a "P".
Dear QT_PA_2T, Thank you very much for your post. You started to see where I am coming from, although you have been wrong thinking that I am someone of authority in contributing to this website or to other church authoritarian process in charge of the Coptic transliteration. I am not. I agree with you that there are so many dialects in Coptic (five originally), equivalent to other languages, and that the dialect itself might have been affected by Arabic when the Arabs invaded Egypt fourteen centuries ago. However, I don't believe that the "p" sound was replaced by a "b". As far as my understanding goes, the "p" sound had very limited usage in Coptic language (not completely sure about this, still researching), and it was not denoted by the letter "bei", which looks like a modern "pie" in Greek. Pope Cyril IV (father of reformation) is the one who insisted on adopting the modern Greek rules to be applied on Coptic (hence the Greco-Bohairic misnomer), as the church books are by and large written in Bohairic dialect. That to me didn't do any good to the Coptic language, and in fact widened the gap that we are trying to close now but I am one of the supporters of the old dialect (which doesn't contain the "p" sound in such an abundance). I hope I am clear. I would still like to hear Fr. Bigol's opinion if you get it for us one day; that will be highly educational for me. God bless you and pray for us a lot
[quote author=ophadece link=topic=6567.msg87515#msg87515 date=1210692876] Dear QT_PA_2T, Thank you very much for your post. You started to see where I am coming from, although you have been wrong thinking that I am someone of authority in contributing to this website or to other church authoritarian process in charge of the Coptic transliteration. I am not. I agree with you that there are so many dialects in Coptic (five originally), equivalent to other languages, and that the dialect itself might have been affected by Arabic when the Arabs invaded Egypt fourteen centuries ago. However, I don't believe that the "p" sound was replaced by a "b". As far as my understanding goes, the "p" sound had very limited usage in Coptic language (not completely sure about this, still researching), and it was not denoted by the letter "bei", which looks like a modern "pie" in Greek. Pope Cyril IV (father of reformation) is the one who insisted on adopting the modern Greek rules to be applied on Coptic (hence the Greco-Bohairic misnomer), as the church books are by and large written in Bohairic dialect. That to me didn't do any good to the Coptic language, and in fact widened the gap that we are trying to close now but I am one of the supporters of the old dialect (which doesn't contain the "p" sound in such an abundance). I hope I am clear. I would still like to hear Fr. Bigol's opinion if you get it for us one day; that will be highly educational for me. God bless you and pray for us a lot
Well Ophedece, The situation right now is that we are stuck in between 2 schools of thought. Its only "dialect". I mean, we're not discussing dogma here. (THANK GOD!).
I mean, what do you suggest? I honestly do not mind.
Here's a small idea, tell me what u think (ok)
Cleveland and LA Churches are producing ENORMOUS amounts of books for us. Their good works have reached us here in Europe, and no doubt will continue. Why don't u see what type of dialect they have adopted in their transliteration? If they transliterate with P or "Bei" ?
You have a valid right to your opinion. Mine is also "personal" to me, that I do not wish to be associated with any islamic influence on my Coptic Language. But, for me, the way forward is to see which dialect is best suited so we can pray together??? I mean, what we decide on today will influence how our kids are taught. It would be a shame that my son and your son may be friends, but will have problems singing the tasbeha together?? No?
I honestly do not "think" in coptic. I think in French or English. Coptic to me is just a language in which I use to pray in. The same as the Catholics have latin, yet they do not think in it, I have Coptic that is used to pray in. The catholics have no issues with dialects when they pray in Latin. We will soon be one with the greek Orthodox Church. This is happening. Given the influence of the greek language in our prayers, it would be best, in my humble opinion, to keep our dialect as closely associated with the greek. We are TWO letters more than them in their alphabet. Given this was the original plan of the Coptic Orthodox Patriarch, i see not why we are arguing over this as if it is heresy.
As I said, perhaps see what the majority of Church books are translated as, and I'll follow. Unfortunately, if you are in the UK, i've already transliterated the Pascha book using the Greek pronounciation. I did this when I was very young (18 years of age). THis book has been published and is being used by all the Churches in the UK.
If there are any transliteration mistakes there, then Its my fault, but we never had word processors then, it was really big type-setting machines... so my apologies.
The cleveland Church have produced a MEGA excellent book for the pascha, and i forgot what their transliteration is like. Ours was done in the spirit for Sunday School in order to give the kids something to use. There were no pascha books in the UK prior to that.
Dear QT_PA_2T, I want to thank you very much for your post. It is always educational for all of us. I don't think we will ever stop learning. Anyway, I will tell you my opinion personally - only as what I think, but I have to stress here that it is not up to me to choose which dialect to speak with within the Church. I think the people in charge should be the Holy Synod, or people interested in the Coptic language and rites. As far as my family are concerned, I will attempt to teach my kids the Coptic used in the church, plus the "right" way of pronouncing it (old Bohairic dialect if you like). I will try to assert to them also the importance of using the correct language, because Coptic cannot be considered dead. It is like teaching my kids English with an accent (some words in the English language are never pronounced right by Egyptians anyway), and teaching them the correct language that they should be using in their every day life - this is just a similie without the huge discrepancy between the two examples. I know that this may cause confusion when hymns are prayed in the church, but mind you it won't make a big difference since in our daily life that happens anyway when English melodies are being sung. As for transliteration, I don't depend on that so much in learning a new language: in fact, I am in whole opposition to that idea. What has been started has been started. Maybe we can now fine tune it. If you know that even Arabic transliteration in Arabic Euchologions is wrong based on the modern Greco-Bohairic rules, you can understand my point in saying that transliteration as a whole is not that important. My opinion is that the best thing that can happen now is that we teach our kids Coptic in whatever dialect and they can choose for themselves which way to follow. God bless you and pray for us a lot
[quote author=ophadece link=topic=6567.msg87606#msg87606 date=1210766938] Dear QT_PA_2T, I want to thank you very much for your post. It is always educational for all of us. I don't think we will ever stop learning. Anyway, I will tell you my opinion personally - only as what I think, but I have to stress here that it is not up to me to choose which dialect to speak with within the Church. I think the people in charge should be the Holy Synod, or people interested in the Coptic language and rites. As far as my family are concerned, I will attempt to teach my kids the Coptic used in the church, plus the "right" way of pronouncing it (old Bohairic dialect if you like). I will try to assert to them also the importance of using the correct language, because Coptic cannot be considered dead. It is like teaching my kids English with an accent (some words in the English language are never pronounced right by Egyptians anyway), and teaching them the correct language that they should be using in their every day life - this is just a similie without the huge discrepancy between the two examples. I know that this may cause confusion when hymns are prayed in the church, but mind you it won't make a big difference since in our daily life that happens anyway when English melodies are being sung. As for transliteration, I don't depend on that so much in learning a new language: in fact, I am in whole opposition to that idea. What has been started has been started. Maybe we can now fine tune it. If you know that even Arabic transliteration in Arabic Euchologions is wrong based on the modern Greco-Bohairic rules, you can understand my point in saying that transliteration as a whole is not that important. My opinion is that the best thing that can happen now is that we teach our kids Coptic in whatever dialect and they can choose for themselves which way to follow. God bless you and pray for us a lot
Hi Oph, Yes.. i agree. THe main thing is we teach them to pray and to lift up their hearts when they sing.. But with all dialects, its personal. I mean, i can't tell someone who's a brummie to change his acccent. Its ok.. someone has an accent , we shouldnt tell them they are wrong. THat's hurtful. But, like I said, we need to get unity over this at the deacon-level within the Global Coptic Orthodox Church so that at least we can sing together so as to not cause disruption to the unity of prayer.
[quote author=gergesezzat link=topic=6567.msg86985#msg86985 date=1210265011] you are right mina but I need it in the fast tune. I can send a part of it later. and also Bishop Abakir said he learned this hymn from fr. Serafim in alexandria egypt. I hope this will help.
i asked fr. serafim and he told me that he got this way from cantor habib hanna recordings,so does anyone have this recording?
Comments
i forget to mention that this must be the best tamgeed for Saint Mary I've heard in a VERY long time.
I envy u Mina for being there. You've got some good deacons btw.
thanks.....i know, i take advantage in that. you can always here them on the live broadcasting. actually mikesl was one of them.
what's weird is that this tamgeed was like the last time HG came to our church from maybe the last 2-3 yrs. noramlly he comes on St. Mary's vespers and than stays for the liturgy which most of the time is the Transfiguration.
You know, most people (well definately myself) will be using mp3's from this site to learn new alhan, or to use what you do in the USA as a template for us here in Europe (for tamgeeds etc). This is just a small comment, and please don't take this as a criticism in ANY WAY, but given the position your church has, would you not agree that it is best to agree with your brothers, the deacons on certain Coptic pronounciation issues? For example, changing the coptic "P" to "B". I know many are Egyptians etc, and the letter "P" doesnt exist in the arabic language, but that's why its all the more important to make the effort to use the Coptic "P". I'm saying this because I know many of our youth will be downloading your mp3's and learning off it, and we've really tried to teach them here in the UK at least, to use "P" instead of "B" when they see the coptic letter "Pi". Its "Pe'ekhristos", not "bekhristos". Pa-soteer not Basooteer. Its important as not only we want to sing together, but its our original language, and we should have some pride in how we pronounce it. No?
Many thanks for your khedma on this Mina... I loved the tamgeed VERY much. The only thing I will change is probably the "Assalamo-laky ya mariam" to the other "assalamolaky ya mariam" in the song book (i think that's much better for tamgeeds).
Mina,
You know, most people (well definately myself) will be using mp3's from this site to learn new alhan, or to use what you do in the USA as a template for us here in Europe (for tamgeeds etc). This is just a small comment, and please don't take this as a criticism in ANY WAY, but given the position your church has, would you not agree that it is best to agree with your brothers, the deacons on certain Coptic pronounciation issues? For example, changing the coptic "P" to "B". I know many are Egyptians etc, and the letter "P" doesnt exist in the arabic language, but that's why its all the more important to make the effort to use the Coptic "P". I'm saying this because I know many of our youth will be downloading your mp3's and learning off it, and we've really tried to teach them here in the UK at least, to use "P" instead of "B" when they see the coptic letter "Pi". Its "Pe'ekhristos", not "bekhristos". Pa-soteer not Basooteer. Its important as not only we want to sing together, but its our original language, and we should have some pride in how we pronounce it. No?
well i persoannly love the live things. in GENERAL you can take them to be that way, but not in specific cases. we do many things that ppl somtimes dont accept but we would have our own reason for that. i agree with the pronoucation basis, but i don't normaly use it as much. why, because some times u'd be watchin what you're sayin rather than what you're supposed to be doin, praying. so it really depends. btw, i remember reading from someone online that the true way to say the [coptic]p[/coptic] is the noraml b not p....not 100% sure thoo/
are you talking about the text library or what exactly?
anyway if i'd put it, i'd rather "Assalamo-laky ya mariam", easy to understnad better than all in one long word, harder to read. since meaning has no point hear, ur main goal is that you can read it. that's when i use "-" to devide words in arabic and mostly in coptic too.
Fantastic Shenoda, that what I am looking for. and I am waiting for the other recording.
here u r
http://www.mediafire.com/?xjovz3ddle0
I don't think the pronunciation you are referring to is the right one anyway. This is actually not a genuine Coptic pronunciation but a pure modern Greek one that has been applied to the Coptic language. This to me is wrong. I am sure you have read through most of the other posts here and on coptichymns.net about the current debate of the right way pronouncing the Coptic language, and they all point out to the fact that these ways of pronunciation are not 100% authentic. My suggestion is yes learn it the way other cantors say it, keeping in mind that there is no definite answer about what is the perfect way of pronouncing between all of our Coptic churches. What a pity!
God bless you and pray for us a lot
I also downloaded the file and I hope you don't mind that.
God bless you all and pray for us a lot
Dear QT_PA_2T,
I don't think the pronunciation you are referring to is the right one anyway. This is actually not a genuine Coptic pronunciation but a pure modern Greek one that has been applied to the Coptic language. This to me is wrong. I am sure you have read through most of the other posts here and on coptichymns.net about the current debate of the right way pronouncing the Coptic language, and they all point out to the fact that these ways of pronunciation are not 100% authentic. My suggestion is yes learn it the way other cantors say it, keeping in mind that there is no definite answer about what is the perfect way of pronouncing between all of our Coptic churches. What a pity!
God bless you and pray for us a lot
i guess i was right about the b and p.....;)
it is very good and nice hymns. I love it very much.
what is your opinion guys especially for the fast tune one?
[quote author=ophadece link=topic=6567.msg87125#msg87125 date=1210423972]
Dear QT_PA_2T,
I don't think the pronunciation you are referring to is the right one anyway. This is actually not a genuine Coptic pronunciation but a pure modern Greek one that has been applied to the Coptic language. This to me is wrong. I am sure you have read through most of the other posts here and on coptichymns.net about the current debate of the right way pronouncing the Coptic language, and they all point out to the fact that these ways of pronunciation are not 100% authentic. My suggestion is yes learn it the way other cantors say it, keeping in mind that there is no definite answer about what is the perfect way of pronouncing between all of our Coptic churches. What a pity!
God bless you and pray for us a lot
i guess i was right about the b and p.....;)
lol... u were right in that its we should use both so as to learn to sing together.
I just called Abouna, and my main man tells me its "Pi-EKHRISTOS"!!
Read it and weep! You want more proof?? Go to www.remenkimi.com - i did the Coptic grammer course nearly 2 months ago. Look at examples they give for the coptic letter "Pi".
lol... ya mina.. ya mina.. how many times did i want to put you under my wings like a chicken with its little chicken.. but you were not willing. Why!????!!!!
[quote author=minagir link=topic=6567.msg87141#msg87141 date=1210440655]
[quote author=ophadece link=topic=6567.msg87125#msg87125 date=1210423972]
Dear QT_PA_2T,
I don't think the pronunciation you are referring to is the right one anyway. This is actually not a genuine Coptic pronunciation but a pure modern Greek one that has been applied to the Coptic language. This to me is wrong. I am sure you have read through most of the other posts here and on coptichymns.net about the current debate of the right way pronouncing the Coptic language, and they all point out to the fact that these ways of pronunciation are not 100% authentic. My suggestion is yes learn it the way other cantors say it, keeping in mind that there is no definite answer about what is the perfect way of pronouncing between all of our Coptic churches. What a pity!
God bless you and pray for us a lot
i guess i was right about the b and p.....;)
lol... u were right in that its we should use both so as to learn to sing together.
I just called Abouna, and my main man tells me its "Pi-EKHRISTOS"!!
Read it and weep! You want more proof?? Go to www.remenkimi.com - i did the Coptic grammer course nearly 2 months ago. Look at examples they give for the coptic letter "Pi".
lol... ya mina.. ya mina.. how many times did i want to put you under my wings like a chicken with its little chicken.. but you were not willing. Why!????!!!!
lol.....i just rather not. I am MINA, i'd stay that way........forever.
Dear QT_PA_2T,
I don't think the pronunciation you are referring to is the right one anyway. This is actually not a genuine Coptic pronunciation but a pure modern Greek one that has been applied to the Coptic language. This to me is wrong. I am sure you have read through most of the other posts here and on coptichymns.net about the current debate of the right way pronouncing the Coptic language, and they all point out to the fact that these ways of pronunciation are not 100% authentic. My suggestion is yes learn it the way other cantors say it, keeping in mind that there is no definite answer about what is the perfect way of pronouncing between all of our Coptic churches. What a pity!
God bless you and pray for us a lot
Hi Oph,
Please take the coptic grammer course (remenkimi or ANYWHERE u want) that clearly explains we have the letter "Pi" and its pronouciation rules "Apip" NOT abeeb etc (for the coptic month). Its "P" , not "B".
Thanks for everyone for trying to make an effort to protect our beautiful Coptic language.
Thanks Shnoda,
I also downloaded the file and I hope you don't mind that.
God bless you all and pray for us a lot
it`s a pleasure ophadece to feel like u have done something good that helped someone even if it was very little thing.
hope u like it :D
With all due respect to Rmenkimi website and their grammar course, that is based on the Greco-Bohairic rules of pronunciation, which to me is not genuine. I used to think you were born in Egypt and travelled abroad at a young age, but it seems that this is not the case. If you were, you would have understood that this kind of pronunciation is so funny; "Apeep"; rather funny. Please trust my words. I even read a book recently about the hieroglyphic language (the precedent of Coptic) and the months in Egypt are not pronounced as in Greco-Bohairic ways. The month you were referring to is pronounced as "Abib", which makes more sense due to the fact that Coptic didn't have a "p" sound. It is also clear you weren't interested to read the topics about Coptic language on this website, or on coptichymns.net.
Dear Shnoda,
Thanks again man.
God bless you all and pray for us a lot
Dear QT_PA_2T,
With all due respect to Rmenkimi website and their grammar course, that is based on the Greco-Bohairic rules of pronunciation, which to me is not genuine. I used to think you were born in Egypt and travelled abroad at a young age, but it seems that this is not the case. If you were, you would have understood that this kind of pronunciation is so funny; "Apeep"; rather funny. Please trust my words. I even read a book recently about the hieroglyphic language (the precedent of Coptic) and the months in Egypt are not pronounced as in Greco-Bohairic ways. The month you were referring to is pronounced as "Abib", which makes more sense due to the fact that Coptic didn't have a "p" sound. It is also clear you weren't interested to read the topics about Coptic language on this website, or on coptichymns.net.
Dear Shnoda,
Thanks again man.
God bless you all and pray for us a lot
I just called abouna before telling you that. THen I checked on remenkimi. THen I checked on another website that teaches Coptic Grammer.
I'm sorry, I'm with abouna. Regardless of where I was born, or where I am, or what I age I came, its irrelevant my friend.
Since a young age, our mo3alim taught us this in Church. In fact, he'd get really upset with me over it as I often did the mistake of mixing "B" with "P" when I was younger.
I have a good idea. Abouna Pigol Bassily is fluent in Coptic. So are his kids. I can easily ask them if you want?
Let me call abouna Pigol. He's really fluent in Coptic.
Logically, its the letter "Pi". If its "Pi" - its not gonna be pronounced as "Bye". Is it??? That's why God gave us other letters for the "B" sound. And, yes, I think apeep sounds just fine the way it is.
But.. i'm not disputing this. Its clear that Mina and yourself have a strong understanding of Coptic. I just happened to be around people that taught me differently. But regardless, we need closure as the change between "P" and "B" effects the mp3's from what we are learning from. I mean, if it IS "B" and not "P" - i don't mind, so long as we ALL follow the same rules.
You see what I mean??
And yes, I tried to go to coptichymns.net but I couldnt find the link u mentioned.
Here's another site from the Coptic Church explaining that the letter "Pi" makes the "Pie" sound: as in "Pope", and yes, as in "Apeep".
http://www.mycopticchurch.com/coptic/lesson2.asp
I get the impression that you are not happy with such lessons.. could you provide us then with the link of what to you is correct, but it should come from an official source of the Coptic Orthodox Church, and I'd be happy to change the "Pi" into "Bye".
Bye bye pie.
I don't agree with the pronunciation of "bye" anyway, but I think it should be read as "bei", and I am basing my pronunciation on the teachings of Fr. Shenouda Maher, who was assigned by Pope Shenouda to find out the correct Bohairic rules of grammar - having said that things were just made up as Greco-bohairic for some other reasons.
I would also think that it would be a great idea if you ask Fr. Bigol, since he is definitely more well-learned and well-informed than me and I can then see where I went wrong. However, I am not sure if he follows Fr. Shenouda's teachings, but maybe he can compare Coptic used in the church, and Coptic taught according to Fr. Shenouda.
PS: a Sunday school teacher long ago with a master in Coptic language taught me the same as your mo3allim, but I found out that that wasn't 100% correct
God bless you and pray for us a lot.
Dear QT_PA_2T,
I don't agree with the pronunciation of "bye" anyway, but I think it should be read as "bei", and I am basing my pronunciation on the teachings of Fr. Shenouda Maher, who was assigned by Pope Shenouda to find out the correct Bohairic rules of grammar - having said that things were just made up as Greco-bohairic for some other reasons.
I would also think that it would be a great idea if you ask Fr. Bigol, since he is definitely more well-learned and well-informed than me and I can then see where I went wrong. However, I am not sure if he follows Fr. Shenouda's teachings, but maybe he can compare Coptic used in the church, and Coptic taught according to Fr. Shenouda.
PS: a Sunday school teacher long ago with a master in Coptic language taught me the same as your mo3allim, but I found out that that wasn't 100% correct
God bless you and pray for us a lot.
Hi Oph,
Actually, we should open a new thread for this. However, this topic has proved immensely interesting as it has given me the chance the dive into the History of our Coptic language and our Church History to learn more.
Basically, what I've understood so far is that there are MANY dialects of the Coptic language. MANY.
In the same way there are many British dialects, there is the Queen's English, there is the Cockney dialect, there is the Southern dialect, there is the brummie dialect, there is the Scottish dialect, there is the welsh dialect...
Now, pronouncing "Pi" as "P" is a dialect. Apparently, there was a Pope that insisted the dialect be analagous to the Greek dialect (They wanted CHurch unity at the time). At that time, the P was alredy a P. It was other letters they wanted accordance on.
From my understanding, and perhaps u can correct this if u know better because i don't trust 100% wikipedia, is that the influence of arabic on the Coptic language resulted in another dialect. The introduction of the "B" replacing the "P" sound.
Our mo3alim taught us that we should NOT pronounce it as "B". It should always be "P", and he said it was due to the arab influence on the language. (as far as I remember). Our Church in the UK is really close to the Greeks (i mean, we mix with them a lot), sometimes, i get the impression our mo3alims are greek when they speak... it sounds that way.
ANyway, like i was telling mina, tasbeha.org have in fact transliterated the tasbeha, and have used P for P. So, given that they've done this, why not stick to that??
Its true that the "B" replacing the "P" is a dialect in its own right, but I'd prefer to speak using sounds that alienate me from anything islamic. (sorry to say). That's me personally.
As I said to Mina, its up to u. If you wish to go with the "B" and not "P", go ahead, but change then all the transliteration. We've been publishing books for the church for the last 25years in the UK, and we've used "P" for "P".
So long as we can pray together, that's all i care for. If there's a mix, (i.e. one half of the church is pronouncing it different than the other), then the sound can be very distorted, and this distracts prayer. I, believe it or not, when i sing, I actually don't sing. I stay silent and pray when I hear the words being sung. I am not at the spiritual level to pray this way if there is dawsha when they sing.
Agree amongst yourselves (between u and mina etc) and decide what dialect u wish. Let us know afterwards, but stick to ONE thing at least. Don't tell us to pronounce something as "B" if you've transliterated it yourselves with a "P".
Thank you very much for your post. You started to see where I am coming from, although you have been wrong thinking that I am someone of authority in contributing to this website or to other church authoritarian process in charge of the Coptic transliteration. I am not. I agree with you that there are so many dialects in Coptic (five originally), equivalent to other languages, and that the dialect itself might have been affected by Arabic when the Arabs invaded Egypt fourteen centuries ago. However, I don't believe that the "p" sound was replaced by a "b". As far as my understanding goes, the "p" sound had very limited usage in Coptic language (not completely sure about this, still researching), and it was not denoted by the letter "bei", which looks like a modern "pie" in Greek. Pope Cyril IV (father of reformation) is the one who insisted on adopting the modern Greek rules to be applied on Coptic (hence the Greco-Bohairic misnomer), as the church books are by and large written in Bohairic dialect. That to me didn't do any good to the Coptic language, and in fact widened the gap that we are trying to close now but I am one of the supporters of the old dialect (which doesn't contain the "p" sound in such an abundance). I hope I am clear. I would still like to hear Fr. Bigol's opinion if you get it for us one day; that will be highly educational for me.
God bless you and pray for us a lot
Dear QT_PA_2T,
Thank you very much for your post. You started to see where I am coming from, although you have been wrong thinking that I am someone of authority in contributing to this website or to other church authoritarian process in charge of the Coptic transliteration. I am not. I agree with you that there are so many dialects in Coptic (five originally), equivalent to other languages, and that the dialect itself might have been affected by Arabic when the Arabs invaded Egypt fourteen centuries ago. However, I don't believe that the "p" sound was replaced by a "b". As far as my understanding goes, the "p" sound had very limited usage in Coptic language (not completely sure about this, still researching), and it was not denoted by the letter "bei", which looks like a modern "pie" in Greek. Pope Cyril IV (father of reformation) is the one who insisted on adopting the modern Greek rules to be applied on Coptic (hence the Greco-Bohairic misnomer), as the church books are by and large written in Bohairic dialect. That to me didn't do any good to the Coptic language, and in fact widened the gap that we are trying to close now but I am one of the supporters of the old dialect (which doesn't contain the "p" sound in such an abundance). I hope I am clear. I would still like to hear Fr. Bigol's opinion if you get it for us one day; that will be highly educational for me.
God bless you and pray for us a lot
Well Ophedece,
The situation right now is that we are stuck in between 2 schools of thought. Its only "dialect". I mean, we're not discussing dogma here. (THANK GOD!).
I mean, what do you suggest? I honestly do not mind.
Here's a small idea, tell me what u think (ok)
Cleveland and LA Churches are producing ENORMOUS amounts of books for us. Their good works have reached us here in Europe, and no doubt will continue. Why don't u see what type of dialect they have adopted in their transliteration? If they transliterate with P or "Bei" ?
You have a valid right to your opinion. Mine is also "personal" to me, that I do not wish to be associated with any islamic influence on my Coptic Language. But, for me, the way forward is to see which dialect is best suited so we can pray together??? I mean, what we decide on today will influence how our kids are taught. It would be a shame that my son and your son may be friends, but will have problems singing the tasbeha together?? No?
I honestly do not "think" in coptic. I think in French or English. Coptic to me is just a language in which I use to pray in. The same as the Catholics have latin, yet they do not think in it, I have Coptic that is used to pray in. The catholics have no issues with dialects when they pray in Latin. We will soon be one with the greek Orthodox Church. This is happening. Given the influence of the greek language in our prayers, it would be best, in my humble opinion, to keep our dialect as closely associated with the greek. We are TWO letters more than them in their alphabet. Given this was the original plan of the Coptic Orthodox Patriarch, i see not why we are arguing over this as if it is heresy.
As I said, perhaps see what the majority of Church books are translated as, and I'll follow. Unfortunately, if you are in the UK, i've already transliterated the Pascha book using the Greek pronounciation. I did this when I was very young (18 years of age). THis book has been published and is being used by all the Churches in the UK.
If there are any transliteration mistakes there, then Its my fault, but we never had word processors then, it was really big type-setting machines... so my apologies.
The cleveland Church have produced a MEGA excellent book for the pascha, and i forgot what their transliteration is like. Ours was done in the spirit for Sunday School in order to give the kids something to use. There were no pascha books in the UK prior to that.
I want to thank you very much for your post. It is always educational for all of us. I don't think we will ever stop learning. Anyway, I will tell you my opinion personally - only as what I think, but I have to stress here that it is not up to me to choose which dialect to speak with within the Church. I think the people in charge should be the Holy Synod, or people interested in the Coptic language and rites.
As far as my family are concerned, I will attempt to teach my kids the Coptic used in the church, plus the "right" way of pronouncing it (old Bohairic dialect if you like). I will try to assert to them also the importance of using the correct language, because Coptic cannot be considered dead. It is like teaching my kids English with an accent (some words in the English language are never pronounced right by Egyptians anyway), and teaching them the correct language that they should be using in their every day life - this is just a similie without the huge discrepancy between the two examples. I know that this may cause confusion when hymns are prayed in the church, but mind you it won't make a big difference since in our daily life that happens anyway when English melodies are being sung. As for transliteration, I don't depend on that so much in learning a new language: in fact, I am in whole opposition to that idea. What has been started has been started. Maybe we can now fine tune it. If you know that even Arabic transliteration in Arabic Euchologions is wrong based on the modern Greco-Bohairic rules, you can understand my point in saying that transliteration as a whole is not that important.
My opinion is that the best thing that can happen now is that we teach our kids Coptic in whatever dialect and they can choose for themselves which way to follow.
God bless you and pray for us a lot
Dear QT_PA_2T,
I want to thank you very much for your post. It is always educational for all of us. I don't think we will ever stop learning. Anyway, I will tell you my opinion personally - only as what I think, but I have to stress here that it is not up to me to choose which dialect to speak with within the Church. I think the people in charge should be the Holy Synod, or people interested in the Coptic language and rites.
As far as my family are concerned, I will attempt to teach my kids the Coptic used in the church, plus the "right" way of pronouncing it (old Bohairic dialect if you like). I will try to assert to them also the importance of using the correct language, because Coptic cannot be considered dead. It is like teaching my kids English with an accent (some words in the English language are never pronounced right by Egyptians anyway), and teaching them the correct language that they should be using in their every day life - this is just a similie without the huge discrepancy between the two examples. I know that this may cause confusion when hymns are prayed in the church, but mind you it won't make a big difference since in our daily life that happens anyway when English melodies are being sung. As for transliteration, I don't depend on that so much in learning a new language: in fact, I am in whole opposition to that idea. What has been started has been started. Maybe we can now fine tune it. If you know that even Arabic transliteration in Arabic Euchologions is wrong based on the modern Greco-Bohairic rules, you can understand my point in saying that transliteration as a whole is not that important.
My opinion is that the best thing that can happen now is that we teach our kids Coptic in whatever dialect and they can choose for themselves which way to follow.
God bless you and pray for us a lot
Hi Oph,
Yes.. i agree. THe main thing is we teach them to pray and to lift up their hearts when they sing..
But with all dialects, its personal. I mean, i can't tell someone who's a brummie to change his acccent.
Its ok..
someone has an accent , we shouldnt tell them they are wrong. THat's hurtful.
But, like I said, we need to get unity over this at the deacon-level within the Global Coptic Orthodox Church so that at least we can sing together so as to not cause disruption to the unity of prayer.
you are right mina but I need it in the fast tune. I can send a part of it later.
and also Bishop Abakir said he learned this hymn from fr. Serafim in alexandria egypt.
I hope this will help.
i asked fr. serafim and he told me that he got this way from cantor habib hanna recordings,so does anyone have this recording?