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What is Hell?

Meena_AmeenMeena_Ameen
edited December 1969 in Faith Issues
I wanted to start a huge discussion hopfully, since we have not had a one on tasbeha in a while. And what topic can be talked about more than hell? Heaven is kind of hard to talk about because we KNOW that no one knows what heaven is like, no one has ever seen heaven, but hell is mentioned by our Lord Jesus Christ actually WAY MORE times than heaven.

I have some really deep thoughts on hell and will try to use some biblical verses to back it up. So lets start.

Non-Christians will not go to heaven, simply because their sins have non been forgiven and you cannot enter into the kingdom of heaven unless you are cleansed of your sins. We know the only person who cleans us from sin is our Lord Jesus Christ. So if anyone says no i dont want to accept Jesus, than they literally do not want to be cleaned from their sin. SO the only other existing place in the afterlife besides heaven, is hell which was prepared for the devil and his angels.(Matthew 25:41)   

MANY people say, wut if you are a good person like Ghandi. How is it possible that God put Ghandi to suffer just as much as the devil will suffer? It is mind boggling to see someone who was soooooooo loving, who preached about non violence and peace and love, to be burning side by side with the devil who teaches lust and hate and murder and rape.

The answer to this question is #1 You do not go to heaven based and anything YOU do, heaven is for those who Love Jesus. Jesus lives in heaven, and for all those who want to spend eternity with the Lord Jesus Christ are welcome into heaven. All those who Love Jesus are welcome into his home. Heaven is not neccesarily for those who are "good", it is for those who WANT A RELATIONSHIP WITH THE LORD. There are many people who are non christian who are "good", but let me ask you a question. Lets say their is someone who is a VERY NICE PERSON, who is SOOO loving, and is possibly the best person in the world, but he HATESSSSSSS JESUS, because Jesus preached about Him being the only way etc. Will this person live an everlasting life with Jesus? Regardless of how good he is, will he after death, go live with Jesus? Someone he cant stand? OFCOURSE NOT.

SO, where is Ghandi? Another man who accepted living a good life, but rejected the salvation of our Lord. Ghandi is simply in hell. BUT God is more rightous than any of us. SO what I believe is than even though Ghandi is in hell, he is not suffering as much physical as he is mentally. Because Hell is physicall and mental torture. I personally believe that Ghandi is only suffering complete mentally, he is regreting not having accepted the Lord, he is sitting in a dark room alone, for the rest of eternity, with no hope in ever seeing the Lord face EVER. But if you think about it, thats what he chose on earth. He CHOSE to be good, and he CHOSE not to accept Jesus. So in a way, out of the rightousness of God, because Ghandi was such a good person, he is not suffering much physically, but out of the CHOICE of Ghandi he is GREATLY suffering mentally, Regreting every second for the rest of eternity not having chosen to live with the Lord.

Where I got this idea from? Luke 16:23   And in Hades he lifted up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.  And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am in anguish in this flame.  But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and Lazarus in like manner evil things: but now here he is comforted and thou art in anguish.  And besides all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed, that they that would pass from hence to you may not be able, and that none may cross over from thence to us.  And he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house;  for I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.  But Abraham saith, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.  And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one go to them from the dead, they will repent.  And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, if one rise from the dead.

Any opinions?

Comments

  • godislove260godislove260
    The three conditions given to us for salvation were faith, repentance and baptism.
    Believe in God, get baptized and repent for your sins and then you will be in heaven with God. This is what we know now as people who read the Holy Bible. But what about those who didn't possess such knowledge, not because they didn't want to learn, but simply because they were never taught. I wonder if God would leave such people to perish and die and spend eternity in hell.

    Look at the thief at the right side of Christ, he repented (showed remorse for his sins) and accepted God, yet he wasn't baptized (or at least no mention of him being baptized is in the bible) yet still he's going to the kingdom with God.

    I think that in the end God is the judge and it's not up to us to say that Ghandi is in hell or anyone else for that matter. We should focus on the piece of wood in our own eyes.
    We know what we have to do to get rescued, and I think because we know, we can't pretend we don't know (meaning leading a life of sin and then saying I didn't know).
    But as for people who truly have never heard about God or Christianity (eg undiscovered tribes, people raised in a community where no preaching is allowed etc.) I personally think God might somehow talk to them in their hearts or maybe judge them on how good they were. But then again 'being good' is a relative thing to people, for some killing innocent people for political means is considered an act of bravery, while for others it's a terrible sin.

    I just pray that God saves us all and works through and with us in the way that He sees fit.


    God Bless
    Please pray for me
  • mmatt95mmatt95
    Here is some interesting orthodox articles about hell and heaven:

    http://aggreen.net/beliefs/heaven_hell.html

    http://www.orthodoxpress.org/parish/river_of_fire.htm

    Someone else on this site had directed me to them, and they were very beneficial for me!
  • mannanmannan
    Dont the people that go to hell fall in the lake of fire? Its in Revelations.
  • LifeinChristLifeinChrist
    23 minutes in Hell, great book, read it.
  • flexmdflexmd
    Interesting topic, there is part in liturgy where it says “your blessed promises which eyes have not seen, nor ear heard, nor have occurred to a heart of man. The things you prepared to those who love your holy name”

    Certainly there is life after death and when Jesus was talking with Martha about the death of Lazarus, he referred to his death as if he was sleeping. I think the concept of hell was given so our limited human brain can recognize the state we may live in after death if we committed sins. I think hell is our separation from God and heaven is the continuous existence in his presence. Not sure how God will treat every one (Orthodox and non-Orthodox) but we live in faith that he will fulfill his promises.

  • Meena_AmeenMeena_Ameen
    great answers so far... However, to "Godislove260", even though it is not up to us to choose who goes to heaven or hell, we were already told by our Lord that there is trully only one way to heaven, and that is Christ. Now, that being said, Christ was not saying this to condemn anyone, but simple stating a fact. If there were many other ways to inherit eternal life, im sure our Lord would have told us how, but he simply said, i am the way, the truth, life, no one comes to the father but BY me.

    Godislove260 gave a good point about the theif on the right side of christ NOT being baptised, or having taken communion or anything. However, we must understand that being baptised and repenting and taking communion is NOT the exact way to get into heaven. Many people do all of the above but will still end up in hell. So what is getting baptised and taking communion? I personally think that it is to BUILD the relationship between man and God. And you CANNOT begin building a relationship till you have fuly accepted the Lord as your savior. I think it is like a doctor who tells a patient he must take a certain pill to Live, once the patient has accepted the doctors advice and accepted to take the pills, there may be some work that must be done, for example the patient must take the pill ONLY after he has had a small meal. And the patient must take the pill once a week to keep him strong. The Same thing with eternal life.. The first step is accepting Jesus as your savior, than you must first be baptised before the Lord bring you into heaven. And Than you must take communion once a week to continue BUILDING the relationship with you and God.

    The theif of the right hand of Christ did not have a CHANCE to BUILD a relationship with the Lord because he was near the end of his life, But he DID have the chance to ACCEPT the Lord, and took full advantage of that chance, and the Lord heard his cry and healed him from sin which was keeping him from entering into heaven.

    I cannot say 100% where Ghandi is, but based on simple facts, Ghandi DID READ about Christianity, and he said he loved it. However, if you studied what Ghandi trully thought about Christianity you will see that he loved the good teachings in Christianity like the sermon on the mount. But he didnt trully believe in the salvation made by Christ. He liked the nice things Christ taught, and because of that he actually said, "i dont reject your Christ I Love YOUR CHRIST".(these were his exact words)  This actually seems like a good statement, he said he loves Christ, but he said YOUR CHRIST, meaning hes not my savior, i just love his teachings, like buddha who taught, people love bhuddas teachings. Its easy to Love what Christ taught because He taught TRUTH, and the Only Truth unlike anyother religion. But Ghandi did infact reject Christ as his savior, did not believe in the salvation of the Lord, he simply thought Jesus was a good person as do millions of people today.

    The difference between The theif, and Ghandi. Was the theif repented, Ghandi didnt, the theif said he deserved to be on the cross becuase of his sin, the theif ASKED THE LORD and said LORD PLEASE REMEMBER ME, when you come into YOUR kingdom. Ghandi Did not say or believe in any of the above. Ghandi believed we should love one another, and loved it wen Jesus said love your enemy, but never considered Jesus as His God and His Savior. Another Quote from Ghandi himself.

    "The message of Jesus as I understand it," said Gandhi, "is contained in the Sermon on the Mount unadulterated and taken as a whole... If then I had to face only the Sermon on the Mount and my own interpretation of it, I should not hesitate to say, 'Oh, yes, I am a Christian.' But negatively I can tell you that in my humble opinion, what passes as Christianity is a negation of the Sermon on the Mount... I am speaking of the Christian belief, of Christianity as it is understood in the west."
  • Meena_AmeenMeena_Ameen
    [quote author=flexmd link=topic=6709.msg89738#msg89738 date=1212874402]

    I think the concept of hell was given so our limited human brain can recognize the state we may live in after death if we committed sins. I think hell is our separation from God and heaven is the continuous existence in his presence. Not sure how God will treat every one (Orthodox and non-Orthodox) but we live in faith that he will fulfill his promises.




    I must disagree,  God does not tell us what hell is like to scare us into doing good, but he tells us a fact, and that is hell is torture physical and mental. If you ask why would God make a place like that for us. The answer is he Didnt, Hell was not made for humans it was for the devil and his angels. And the devil is trying to drag us down with him by rejecting the only way of salvation which is Christ. That is why we struggle daily in spiritual warfare
  • mmatt95mmatt95
    Hell is one of the most misunderstood concepts in the whole of Christianity. One problem is the mistranslation for the words "hell".
    In hebrew there is two words that describe the afterlife: Shehol (hades in greek, ga7eem in arabic) and Gehenna (gohannam in arabic).

    The literal meaning of this Hebrew word is simply "subterranean retreat". Sheol was not understood as a physical place since it exists in the spirit world, but it is a spiritual "place" associated with dead people. It was understood that when a person dies, their body is buried, and their soul goes to reside in Sheol. That is the fate for all people who die, both the righteous and the wicked.
    In historic Jewish understanding, it is the perception of the individual in Sheol that makes the difference. This same "place" called Sheol is experienced by the righteous as "gen eiden", the Garden of Eden or Paradise, i.e. "heaven". Moreover, Sheol is experienced by the wicked as the "fires of gehennom", i.e. punishment or "hell".

    Gehennah is another word translated as "hell". It was known to the Jews as a physical place, a valley outside to the south of Jerusalem. It literally means in Hebrew "valley of the sons of Hennah". Here child sacrifices were once made to the pagan god Molech. Gehennah is mentioned in 2 Chronicles 28:3 and 33:6, and Jeremiah 7:31, 19:2-6, and appears in many traditional extra-Biblical Jewish writings. After this area came under Jewish control a memorial fire was kept burning there. Later it became a dumping place for refuse, dead animals, and eventually prisoners' bodies, or the bodies of the poor that were not claimed by any family. Trash fires were kept continually burning there for sanitary reasons. It was like many landfills: a smoky, foul-smelling place with carrion-eating birds circling overhead.

    By the time of Jesus this place became a well known metaphor for the fate of those condemned and judged by God. Expressions like "the fiery pit" or the "fires of Gehennah" were equivalent to the unrighteous' experience of God's presence. Gehennah was the place where evil and sinful people ended up.
    This experience of Gehennah was used as an analogy to express what happens to those who oppose the God of the Jews. Yet even it was not a place God "sends" people. The fire itself was understood to be how the wicked experienced the Shechinah glory of God, as a burning judgment fire.


    The question is: Does God send people to eternal hell because they didn't repent, as a punishment?

    I say that those who are suffering in hell, are suffering in being scourged by love.... It is totally false to think that the sinners in hell are deprived of God's love. Love is a child of the knowledge of truth, and is unquestionably given commonly to all. But love's power acts in two ways: it torments sinners, while at the same time it delights those who have lived in accord with it. St Isaac the Syrian (Homily 84).

    "For our God is a consuming fire", (Heb. 12:29). The very fire which purifies gold, also consumes wood. Precious metals shine in it like the sun, rubbish burns with black smoke. All are in the same fire of Love. Some shine and others become black and dark. In the same furnace steel shines like the sun, whereas clay turns dark and is hardened like stone. The difference is in man, not in God. The difference is conditioned by the free choice of man, which God respects absolutely. God's judgment is the revelation of the reality which is in man. (from "river of fire")

    You may compare it to the following: imagine someone who has loved darkness always, and spent all of his life in darkness. What will happen when he goes out into the light? The light and heat of the sun will surely torment his skin and eyes, not because the light is bad or evil but because he cannot stand being in the light, it reveals his darkness.
    On the other hand, someone who has been always in the presence of some light and enjoys light, when he goes outside in the sun he will be enlightened more and more.
    So the light that causes torture to one person, is the same light that causes the delight and enjoyment of the other person. In other words, the constant factor is the light, the dynamic factor is the person.
    Christ told us the same thing concerning God's relationship with us and judgement:

    John 3:

    16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. 17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. 18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. 20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.  21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

    No doubt that hell is a terrible state to be in, far worse than any physical torture! May God have mercy on us and enlighten us and grant us the grace to enjoy his presence in our hearts.

    PS you may want to read these articles I posted the link to, they explain it far better than I ever could!!!
  • mikeforjesusmikeforjesus
    What about me? I am sometimes a believer (I hope so) but I sometimes have doubt.. But I do not want to doubt at all..... I do not choose to reject christ at all.. In fact I pray to Him still.. and when I pray I am a believer sometimes.. but if I die with doubt will I go to hell?

    Will I go to hell?

    I know we have been through this before..

  • godislove260godislove260
    (This is not my own advice yet advice given by a coptic priest)
    Confess to God about your weakness, tell Him that you have trouble believing, and persevere and He will give you... Be sure of that !
    Tell Him 'a3en 3adam emaani'

    Hope that helps
    God Bless
  • mikeforjesusmikeforjesus
    what is 'a3en 3adam emaani' in english ?

  • godislove260godislove260
    From the Gospel of Mark:
    17A man in the crowd answered, "Teacher, I brought you my son, who is possessed by a spirit that has robbed him of speech. 18Whenever it seizes him, it throws him to the ground. He foams at the mouth, gnashes his teeth and becomes rigid. I asked your disciples to drive out the spirit, but they could not."

    19"O unbelieving generation," Jesus replied, "how long shall I stay with you? How long shall I put up with you? Bring the boy to me."

    20So they brought him. When the spirit saw Jesus, it immediately threw the boy into a convulsion. He fell to the ground and rolled around, foaming at the mouth.

    21Jesus asked the boy's father, "How long has he been like this?"

      "From childhood," he answered. 22"It has often thrown him into fire or water to kill him. But if you can do anything, take pity on us and help us."

    23" 'If you can'?" said Jesus. "Everything is possible for him who believes."

    24Immediately the boy's father exclaimed, "I do believe; help me overcome my unbelief!" (a3en 3adam emaani)

    25When Jesus saw that a crowd was running to the scene, he rebuked the evil[a] spirit. "You deaf and mute spirit," he said, "I command you, come out of him and never enter him again."

    26The spirit shrieked, convulsed him violently and came out. The boy looked so much like a corpse that many said, "He's dead." 27But Jesus took him by the hand and lifted him to his feet, and he stood up.

    God Bless you and Strengthen all our faiths
  • joegjoeg
    Good discussion, lets get to 20 pages ( ;D)

    OK, many a person I have discussed with have claimed that Hell is only a metaphoric place... they reject the verses in Revelation describing the lake of burning sulphur and fire, and argue that since it will be our spirits in eternity, how can physical pain be possible. My reply to them was that God is able to do anything, and if we can create the world, then he can create "spiritual fires". Another favorite devils advocate argument is that which claims that: "If God is all-Loving how can he allow such horrible torture and suffering for eternity?"

    Over to you

    Lets see how many essays we can get answering this one

    pray for me

    joe
  • godislove260godislove260
    Because God in His all-loving state gave human beings the freedom to choose. Some of them choose not to obey God's commandments and thus to be far away from Him. Being far away from God, knowing that you've lost your chance at salvation FOREVER, that's HELL. A place of despair and regret. Whether this is accompanied by lakes of sulfur or fire, I don't know and I hope none of us gets to find out for sure.. LOL

    God Bless You
    Please pray for me, a sinner
  • IngyIngy
    This is kind of along the line of were I was going, when I asked about auras. In practically all the gospels their is some kind of story where a spirit takes hold of a child, and he or she becomes mute and paralyzed. By spirit I mean the person hears a noise.
    I came across this article that states, the noise might actually me the Holy Spirit and they are being called back to the garden of Eden.
    I'm asking because people who have had seizures, hear auras before they happen and do not remember what happened during the seizure. Would it be unorthodox to think the aura is the Holy Spirit? Or is the aura a different kind of spirit?

    Pray for me
  • mmatt95mmatt95
    The Holy Spirit is the Third Person of the Holy Trinity, not some kind of a force or "aura" or some impersonal strange thing. The Holy Spirit is a PERSON that we have a relationship with, that we talk to personally as we do in the third hour troparia. He is the Spirit of God, the Spirit of Truth, the Comforter who dwells in the believers. He is manifested in many ways as we see in the Bible: he spoke through the prophets, he appeared as a dove, as flames, as wind etc. But whether this noise you talk about, was the H. Spirit, I wouldn't know.
  • Meena_AmeenMeena_Ameen
    [quote author=godislove260 link=topic=6709.msg89789#msg89789 date=1212952249]
    Because God in His all-loving state gave human beings the freedom to choose. Some of them choose not to obey God's commandments and thus to be far away from Him. Being far away from God, knowing that you've lost your chance at salvation FOREVER, that's HELL. A place of despair and regret. Whether this is accompanied by lakes of sulfur or fire, I don't know and I hope none of us gets to find out for sure.. LOL

    God Bless You
    Please pray for me, a sinner



    I agree totally.... Theres one thing I would like to add... For those people who say "if God is so loving how can he torture anyone in eternal fire"...

    My answer to this is simply. God does not torture, we torture, out of our free will given to us by the Love of God, we actually CHOOSE to torture ourselves. If we ask ourselves WHO, or WHAT is God? God is PEACE, he IS Love, he IS COMFORT... so without peace, love and comfort, what is left? Torture. For those who choose not to accept the Lord, they are literally Chooses not to be in a state of Joy and gladness and comfort. They are actually choosing to be somewhere else.

    Being in the presence of God is being in a state of complete joy, gladness, happiness, comfort, and relaxation. That is how we will feel when we live with God, a feeling so great it cannot be described. Just like Jesus said, no eyes have seen nor ear has heard. We cannot even imagine how nice it will be. Why? Becuase in heaven you get to enjoy the FULLNESS of the presence of God, which is COMPLETE COMFORT, love, peace etc.. Here on earth, the Lord is with us and offers to be in us all with Holy communion. But because of our lack of faith, or weakness from falling into temptation, we dont get to enjoy his peace as much as we can. Monks are far more peacefull than us because they stay away from sin and allow the Lord to live with them, so they have the presence of God near them. HH Pope shenouda was once asked if he was happy to be back from exile, and his answer was "I am Happy everywhere, because happiness and gladness depends on the relationship between man and God".

    So What happens to those who CHOOSE to stay away from God, in other words, STAY AWAY from comfort and peace? Well, Whats the opposite? discomfort, torture. Because that is what life without God is, where does peace and comfort come from? FROM GOD, and ONLY GOD. So if you choose not to live with God you choose to live in torture. And since the afterlife is everlasting, than hell is everlasting torture.
  • flexmdflexmd
    Seizure disorders involve periodic disturbances of the brain's electrical activity, resulting in some degree of temporary brain dysfunction causing convulsive movements in parts of the body. This is the simplest explanation I could come-up with. In about 20% of people who have a seizure disorder, seizures are preceded by unusual sensations of smell, taste, or vision or an intense feeling that a seizure is about to begin (aura). For example, if an abnormal electrical discharge occurs in the area that controls smell (located deep within temporal lobe), the person may sense an intensely pleasant or unpleasant smell. 

    Back to our topic,

    God's desire from the very beginning was to share his love not to scare us. One time St. Anthony the Great told his group of monks “I don’t fear God” one monk replied “our father, those words are difficult to understand” St. Anthony said “I don’t fear God because I love him”

    Came across this versus which might explain the state of spirits living in hell “Then the king said to the servants, ‘Bind him hand and foot, take him away, and cast him into outer darkness; there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’ Matthew 22:13”     

    Bind him hand and foot: On earth we have a free choice to confess, to be remorseful and repent our sins but in hell we will no longer have these option. It’s done deal, people bind to what they have done on earth. i.e situation can’t be changed.
    Take him away: This is the ultimate punishments by being taken away from His presence.
    Cast him into outer darkness: On earth we may live in darkness by choice (inner darkness) which is temporary if we repent but in hell, we will live in outer darkness where no hope for light. It simply represents a state of sorrow, grief, and regret
    There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth: Gnashing of teeth reflect a state of anger, rage or pain and simply denote despairing remorse
  • coptic pharoahcoptic pharoah
    we talked about this in Sunday School...   

    it will be like a lake filled with PUSS (the stuff that comes out of wounds that smells TERRIBLE), and it will be unimaginably hot, with fire all over, and there will be gnashing of teeth, that only comes with EXTREME COLD...  and you will sit with the devil, with niothing around.. and the devil will laugh at you and remind you of every single thing that you did wrong or bad, or how he trickesd you...


    TERRIBLE PLACE ......      to take a tiny sample (if you dare... nobody should do this...EVER):  sit in an empty room, no light, no nothing... no food, no books, no talking, no singign, NO PRAYING, no nothing... absolutly nothing.........    if you try that for a couple of hours u willget depresed.....  what about 10 days??  u will go mental, or something... WHAT ABOUT ETERNITY???
  • Unknown

    TERRIBLE PLACE ......      to take a tiny sample (if you dare... nobody should do this...EVER):  sit in an empty room, no light, no nothing... no food, no books, no talking, no singign, NO PRAYING, no nothing... absolutly nothing.........    if you try that for a couple of hours u willget depresed.....  what about 10 days??  u will go mental, or something... WHAT ABOUT ETERNITY???

    i love the way you say that!!  That makes a lot of sense you guys.

    /
    mahraeel
    plzz p4m sister in Christ
  • coptic pharoahcoptic pharoah
    [quote author=mahraeel link=topic=6709.msg89833#msg89833 date=1212973624]

    TERRIBLE PLACE ......      to take a tiny sample (if you dare... nobody should do this...EVER):   sit in an empty room, no light, no nothing... no food, no books, no talking, no singign, NO PRAYING, no nothing... absolutly nothing.........    if you try that for a couple of hours u willget depresed.....  what about 10 days??  u will go mental, or something... WHAT ABOUT ETERNITY???

    i love the way you say that!!  That makes a lot of sense you guys.

    /
    mahraeel
    plzz p4m sister in Christ


    i just qpted my sunday school teacher.. he is the best....
  • Meena_AmeenMeena_Ameen
    that is a very good example you gave. But about the devil laughing at you, thats not true, because the devil will be suffering in hell as well. The devil is not like the king of hell or anything, he as his angels will be suffering in hell probably worse than anyone else. Hell was after all "prepared for the devil and his angels"
  • mikeforjesusmikeforjesus
    pope shenouda says we will be resurrected with our physical bodies as well...
  • mmatt95mmatt95
    I agree with Mina_Ameen, hell is a CHOISE from us, not a punishment from God. This clearly is also the teaching of Christ (see my previous quote from the gospel of St John). There's also this wonderfull saying of St Basil: "The evils in hell do not have God as their cause, but ourselves." St. Basil the Great, op. cit. 7, 92.

    However, I think we have to be carefull to interpretate the words of Christ concerning the afterlife in an earthly literal sense. He talked in metaphors and parables so often, and especially the afterlife because it's nature is still unknown to us.
    But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him. (1Cor 2:9) If this goes for the glories that were prepared for those who love God, then this is also true of the opposite. We were given many descriptions about the Kingdom of heaven (revelation is filled with it), however the bible clearly tells us that cannot know the true nature of the afterlife!!

    Also concerning us being in eternal isolation from God in a litteral sense, it's impossible, God is everywhere!!!!!!
    Whither shall I go from thy spirit? or whither shall I flee from thy presence? If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there. (Ps 139:7-8)
    However choosing to live away from Him, that's something different, but that doesn't mean he's not there. Like Saint Irenaeus says: "Separation from God is death, separation from light is darkness... and it is not the light which brings upon them the punishment of blindness". The blindness doesn't mean that there's no light, right?

  • coptic pharoahcoptic pharoah
    [quote author=mikeforjesus link=topic=6709.msg89860#msg89860 date=1212985600]
    pope shenouda says we will be resurrected with our physical bodies as well...


    NOT TRUE....i think you mean we will be resurected with GLORIFIED BODIES.....      please check your source....  cause i really doubt H.H. Pope Shenouda would say that....  do you have the quote anywhere??      opr did you mean in hell, we would be resurected with our physical bodies in hell??.... cause in HEaven, we can only go in with GLORIFIED BODIES..
  • joegjoeg
    Yes, we do rise in glorified bodies:

    35 But someone will say, “How are the dead raised up? And with what body do they come?” 36 Foolish one, what you sow is not made alive unless it dies. 37 And what you sow, you do not sow that body that shall be, but mere grain—perhaps wheat or some other grain. 38 But God gives it a body as He pleases, and to each seed its own body.
    39 All flesh is not the same flesh, but there is one kind of flesh[c] of men, another flesh of animals, another of fish, and another of birds.
    40 There are also celestial bodies and terrestrial bodies; but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another. 41 There is one glory of the sun, another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars; for one star differs from another star in glory.
    42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. The body is sown in corruption, it is raised in incorruption. 43 It is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness, it is raised in power. 44 It is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. 45 And so it is written, “The first man Adam became a living being.”[d] The last Adam became a life-giving spirit.
    46 However, the spiritual is not first, but the natural, and afterward the spiritual. 47 The first man was of the earth, made of dust; the second Man is the Lord[e] from heaven. 48 As was the man of dust, so also are those who are made of dust; and as is the heavenly Man, so also are those who are heavenly. 49 And as we have borne the image of the man of dust, we shall also bear[f] the image of the heavenly Man. (1 Corinthians 15:35-49)

    pray for me

    joe
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