Hello,
I was discussing with a Christian friend the fact that as Christians we should forgive others, and that its very uncommon for non-Christians to forgive horrendous acts of violence or injustice. But, we were discussing several examples of non-Christians who in fact had forgiven (in every sense) the actions of those that really hurt them.
So, what then is the value added of God's Grace in our lives if even aetheists seem to forgive and love the same way we do??
Comments
I recently read a book by a priest and this answer is based on my understanding of the book on this particular subject. I'll try to find the address so as to put it online since I found it very useful.. It was given to me by someone...
God Bless
Please pray for me
God Bless
Please pray for me
Unless the Lord builds the house,
its builders labor in vain.
Unless the Lord guards the city,
the watchman wakens in vain.
I know many people who have told me they believe in forgiveness, but do not need God in order to forgive.
They say that instead of getting up and doing something ourselves, we depend on a god to do it for us and etc.
The thing is if you look at the gospel of John, he says that without God nothing would be.
We know that without God, we are nowhere. We believe in Him a our creator and our helper and our father...
Many times, it's only when faced with something that surpasses human ability, that those people start thinking there must be something more... Or when they witness a miracle, like the american atheist doctor who became a believer after seeing how Tamaf Ireny was healed miracaclusally.
God Bless
Please pray for us
This is the problem with atheism, it denies the existence of a higher being, and so many atheists fall in the sin of pride. But not only atheists, as it is unfortunately an easy sin to fall in, in my opinion.
God Bless
Please pray for me
Anyway, long story short, she asked me :"Yeah, but why do I need God for? I m really happy without Him".
What can u say?? lol
But i'm not answering my own question, but the way i see it is this:
H.H said that the 1st mistake adam and eve made was that they doubted the love that God had for them. That His commandments are for our benefit. This is the benefit of being a Christian. that we believe that living and keeping God's commandments and applying them, is the best thing we can do in our lives. This is for our personal benefit, whether we love God or not.
A church father said once, if you're not tempted then you should not become proud and think it's because you're strong, rather, you should pray to God in humility, lest He take away His protection and let you fall.
God Bless
Please pray for me
also i would like to take this time to say something about this: Some Copts take this to a really bad extreme in the sense that they really literally sit there and expect God to send things...everything straight to them..they don't want to even meet halfway...but only to sit there. And when you ask them why they don't try or what they're waiting for they reply with something along the lines of...God Willing everything will be better, he will fix it. THat's by no means what it means when we say nothing is possible without God. I'm not saying that that strong of faith in God doing everything is bad, but it's not the right way to think...am I right?
I have read some of Plato's work on his theory of the Soul, and it is beautiful. However, later St. Augustine exposes the Platonists arrogance in their belief that only few will reach Heaven by virtue of their intelligence. But that the desire is also few- which St. Augustine identifies as an espousal or confession of the grace of God.
Why do I say all this. It is quite clear that God's grace shines on all of mankind! Do we not say that God's shines on the righteous and the sinners?! Ninevah was a Gentile town, and it still understood Judaic concepts of "sin", "fasting", "prayer" and "repentance" when they were deep in their sins. We can see in all of history that in all cultures, there were always people calling for reformation and renewal of bankrupt societies to an ideal. And this is because by the grace of God we all have consciousness. But it is easily disturbed by the lusts of this world.
Forgiving our enemies has universally been abhorred. It is only in Christianized West where the remnant of this virtue is still found praiseworthy. This is what has been argued by some historians.
We forgive so that we are not lead into temptation which leads to sin, which leads to death. When God commanded us to forgive each other he wasnt saying it just because he wanted us to obey him, he told us to forgive others because IF we dont, the devil will devour us. The fact is, if you dont forgive, the devil will use that to his advantage, and your in seriouse trouble. The Bible says the devil is like a lion seeking whome he may devour, when you dont forgive the devil will lead u into hate, into having bad thoughts about that person, into swearing and cursing that person, into wishing bad things would happen to that person, and into considering that person your enemy. But when you forgive, and TRULY forgive, what can the devil do? God commanded us to forgive for a reason, and that was to keep us away from sin lead by hate.
Nonchristians may forgive one another and this is a great thing, But as christians, we forgive one another to save ourselfes from the devil and his temptation which leads to our spiritual death.
Yeah, i pretty much wanted t say what godislove just said, he doesn't know he's happy...he (thank God) has not had any reall diffuculties in his life, but if something truly rigorous and testing were to come up, his view would probably change and he would realize he needs help to somehow overcome whatever the big obstacle may be.
also i would like to take this time to say something about this: Some Copts take this to a really bad extreme in the sense that they really literally sit there and expect God to send things...everything straight to them..they don't want to even meet halfway...but only to sit there. And when you ask them why they don't try or what they're waiting for they reply with something along the lines of...God Willing everything will be better, he will fix it. THat's by no means what it means when we say nothing is possible without God. I'm not saying that that strong of faith in God doing everything is bad, but it's not the right way to think...am I right?
I agree with you, I have witnessed and heard about Copts going as far as refusing to go to a hospital because they believe God will heal them... The thing is God might also heal them through the doctor's hands... It says in the Bible, God gives us succes and we get up and build also St Augustine said work as if everything depended on you and pray as if everything depended on God.
Both Bible and church fathers clearly say that humans have a part in it, however small it is. Jesus said I'm standing at the door and knocking, IF SOMEONE OPENS THE DOOR, I will enter and have dinner with him... Humans thus have to do something, they have to open the door...
The prodigal son also did something, he decided to return and he did actually return...
I think a priest said once in a sermon that sometimes we take one step and God will take the 99 others, still we have to take that one step..
God Bless
Please pray for us
I remember C.S. Lewis remarking that Christianity has culturally conditioned society to esteem virtues that in pagan Europe was considered abhorrent- uneconomical- though these virtues still were called on by some and declared. We have St. Augustine in his books "City of God" appraising Socrates, and his disciple Plato "There are none who come nearer to us than the Platonists". Further, we have Clement in the Stromata calling him, I think, 'the Pagan Prophet', and Numenius "What is Plato, but Moses in Attic Greek?"
I have read some of Plato's work on his theory of the Soul, and it is beautiful. However, later St. Augustine exposes the Platonists arrogance in their belief that only few will reach Heaven by virtue of their intelligence. But that the desire is also few- which St. Augustine identifies as an espousal or confession of the grace of God.
Why do I say all this. It is quite clear that God's grace shines on all of mankind! Do we not say that God's shines on the righteous and the sinners?! Ninevah was a Gentile town, and it still understood Judaic concepts of "sin", "fasting", "prayer" and "repentance" when they were deep in their sins. We can see in all of history that in all cultures, there were always people calling for reformation and renewal of bankrupt societies to an ideal. And this is because by the grace of God we all have consciousness. But it is easily disturbed by the lusts of this world.
Forgiving our enemies has universally been abhorred. It is only in Christianized West where the remnant of this virtue is still found praiseworthy. This is what has been argued by some historians.
This is a really interesting topic actually, throughout the past year I have been studying the philosophy of Plato, and it's amazing how many striking similarities there are with christianity..
Some go as far as to say that christianity was based on platonism. But there are also many similarities with the teachings of the Stoa. And this brings me to a question I have been having, I think I heard once that when the peoples were separated, that they all had some knowledge of God, but then each tribe created their own religion and some of them still contained traces of that.
Which might explain the similarities between the old Egyptian religion and christianity such as the fact that the soul of Ptah was hovering over the water, the death and resurrection of Osiris and the trinity... If anyone had any more information on this subject (the similarties between christianity and pagan philosophies and religions and explanation), please share. Thanks in advance..
God Bless
Please pray for me
This is a really interesting topic actually,
Thanks. I'm glad my threads still encourage thought and dialogue. You know, what Clay said, that people are influenced by Christianity, this is very interesting. Of course.. but the idea to forgive; and HOW to forgive, how can u do this WITHOUT the Holy Spirit? Without power from God??? How can they do it?
But I feel you have all been led astray by my topic without realising ONE important aspect in terms of Christianity.
What is ONE thing that distinguishes us from NON-Christians?? For even the pagans have forgiveness, love and respect.
We have God's commandments that we keep in our hearts. THe Lord said in St John's Gospel: "I am the Vine and My Father is the Vinedresser.. whoever keeps my commandments, I will abide in him, and him in Me".
So, we have something here by keeping His Commandments. There is a joy that they will NOT have. There is a peace that they will not have, there is a sanctity that they will not have.
THis girl that said to me: "I see no reason why I need God.. I can love and forgive others without God's help".
After having a long chat with her, we ended up talking about relationships. Now, I didnt volunteer information, but she asked me, and I said that fornication was wrong.. and what consitituted fornication.
This really made her think. She then decided not to sleep with her boyfriend (yes.. God will give me something surely for this slick piece of evangelisation done haphazardly!!). She said "You know.. since I talked to you, I never really realised that this was wrong, but since I stopped, I feel way better".
I said to her "Yes, I think honestly, we were created to be respected, not to be used as sex objects, EVEN if that's what we desire for ourselves".
So, where does this idea/notion come from??? It comes from God's Commandments .
So, THEY are missing fruits that come by being attached to the Vine.
Now, the next question is this:
What about people who keep God's commandments BUT DO NOT believe in God??
I was reading St. Paul's Epistle, and he did mention something about this: you know, that its better to keep His Commandments than have faith and break His Commandments..
But this is a case that I find very strange: Those who really live a righteous life, yet do not believe in Jesus Christ??? How can we attract such people to God?? They reap the benefits of keeping God's Commandments, yet do not care whether God exists or not.
This would be like in Islam or Hinduism... religions that more or less have our Christian values but packaged for a different market.
I feel that muslims, or even hindus by the way, when they see stuff like the Ordination of Gay priests etc, this even pushes them further from knowing our faith, and it will make them more attached to theirs.
But, what is it that we have that they do not have even if they keep God's Commandments??? For many muslims, hindus AND jews they do share our moral values. Don't they?