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Sin without satan ????

godislove260godislove260
edited December 1969 in Faith Issues
I was wondering whether it would have been possible for Adam and Eve to sin WITHOUT satan tempting them...

Because Lucifer sinned without anyone tempting him, in fact, his own ego is what made him sin..

So could it be that Adam and Eve would have sinned because of their ego, even if God had created them good???
And generally, for us, is the fact that we've got the fallen nature the only reason why we are so vulnerable to Satan's wars on us???

Thanks in advance

Please pray for me
God Bless

Comments

  • socoolbishoysocoolbishoy
    Satan does nothing more than tempt... thus where he gets the name the tempter!

    And that's what he did to Eve... nothing more than put the idea... didn’t “MAKE” her... but just gave the idea and she acted with all her power, and consciousness!

    Now the serpent was more cunning than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said to the woman , “Has God indeed said, ‘You shall not eat of every tree of the garden’?” And the woman said to the serpent, “We may eat the fruit of the trees of the garden; but of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God has said, ‘You shall not eat it, nor shall you touch it, lest you die.’” Then the serpent said to the woman, “You will not surely die. For God knows that in the day you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.” So when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree desirable to make one wise, she took of its fruit and ate. She also gave to her husband with her, and he ate.

    now the serpent gave an idea... the woman responded... instead of what should be done, which is shun the devil right away for he is too strong for us to fight if we're alone, and are without God! And the serpent got what he wanted which is to have a dialect with the woman, because he knows he could just take her down, for it’s a war! But never “MADE” her “do it”... just put ideas... nothing more nothing less! Then SHE herself changed her view from, "We may eat the fruit of the trees of the garden; but of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God has said, ‘You shall not eat it, nor shall you touch it, lest you die." (obedient) to, "the woman saw that the tree was good for food, that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree desirable to make one wise, she took of its fruit and ate." (Selfish, seeking what is good)

    The devil works very wisely also, he gives one the idea, and after they sin… they share with people around them the sin… and that is exactly what happened with our Father and Mother, Adam and Eve!


    i got carried away and i didn't do well answering your question... forgive me...

    Adam and Eve if weren't tempted could have fallen... for they were vulnerable to sin as the angels were... think about it... the cherub, which are very strong and might were able to fall... you think mere humans can not?!

    akhdna el baraka... neshkor allah! 
  • godislove260godislove260
    Thanks for your reply but that didn't answer my question...

    I wasn't wondering whether the devil MADE them do anything, I was wondering : if it wasn't for him putting the thought into Eve's mind, would she have sinned??

    Is the ego the devil within us apart from the actual satan???
    It is the ego which made Lucifer sin without being tempted by anyone

    but then again...  God created Adam and Eve GOOD, so any evil must come from the outside right?? I always learned the tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil was put in Eden so that Adam and Eve would be free since they had the choice between eating from it or not.. following God's commandment or not..

    My questions: Was the devil's presence also necessary for there to be freedom for humans?
                      Could they have sinned (thus used their freedom to disobey God without   
                      his presence????
  • socoolbishoysocoolbishoy
    forgive me i was modifying it... i noticed that after i reread it!

    God created Adam and Eve GOOD

    God has and will always create everything GOOD... even the devil, He created GOOD!

    and when i started answering you about not making them do it... I was trying to tell you it was of her own will she did the sin... just the thought came from the devil...

    but don't you think if the cherub, who was a high ranked angel could fall in sin by just thinking in his mind, " I will ascend into heaven; I will place my throne above the stars of heaven; I will sit on a lofty mountain, on the lofty mountains toward the north. I will ascend above the clouds; i will be like the most high."

    don't you think Adam and eve could too? lets also add that Adam and Eve were just humans nothing more... while the angel has a body that does not get tired... close to that of a glorified body!

    anything is subject to sin...
  • godislove260godislove260
    So then we can say that even though God created everything good, a fundemental ingredient was always freedom. We're always taught: you're not truly free unless you have more than one thing to choose from and you can actually do all choices..

    This explains the presence of the Tree of knowledge of good and evil for Adam and Eve...
    this offered them a choice and although the devil might not have been necessary for them to sin, maybe God allowed him as to test them more.

    Maybe for Lucifer it was his position which made him truly free, I mean the fact that he could think freely and imagine himself to be god for He was an angel and had seen things that Adam and Eve couldn't have imagined or known although they too have freedom of thoughts..

    So can one say this: the freedom that we all get from God isn't necessarily about choosing between Him or the devil, it's choosing between Him and yourself, your ego, your will which can be influenced by the devil but doesn't have to be in order for you to sin

    But this brings me to another question:
    What's the difference between the way we were created and our fallen nature concerning our vulnerability to the devil and his influence?
    The devil succeded in putting the thought into Eve's mind and as Superman said, he didn't MAKE her do it, but that's what happens now, isn't it?

    God Bless
    Please pray for me

  • MeeMzMeeMz
    [quote author=SuperMAN(BAM) link=topic=7080.msg94040#msg94040 date=1220051355]

    “Has God indeed said, ‘You shall not eat of every tree of the garden’?” And the woman said to the serpent, “We may eat the fruit of the trees of the garden; but of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God has said, ‘You shall not eat it, nor shall you touch it, lest you die.’”

    Then the serpent said to the woman, “You will not surely die. For God knows that in the day you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.”


    I have two questions regarding the above quotes and forgive me, I just need more clarifications...

    1. How did the devil know anything about whether Adam and Eve were going to die or not?

    2. Once Adam and Eve ate out of that tree, how come they didn't die as God said they would?

    Please pray for me
  • binC
    In The Name of The Father, The Son, The Holy Spirit, One God, Amen!!!

    1. How did the devil know anything about whether Adam and Eve were going to die or not?

      I am going to attempt to answer this Q. I read one book about Creation and if not mistaken it says something like the devil even had no access to the paradise. He was asking animals who were entering into the paradise to take him with them but all refused but the serpent, who was as big as a camel and was beautiful. Then only after the curse the serpent crawls.
      But did not Eve herself tell the devil what was the punishment? The first thing the devil said to Eve was to make her fall into the sin of pride he said to her " you r the queen of earth and heaven." She accepted the praise. She could be the queen of the earth but not heaven. Then he talked to her as a friend. She accepted him as a friend which was her next mistake. Then asked her what God has ordered them. She told him a secret. The third mistake is telling a sacred mystry to anyone. Then the devil told her that God was not telling them the Truth. She doubted God's words her 4th mistake. Finally the devil proposed them to be like God. She accepted the idea of being God which was totally out of her reach and contrary to who she was. Then her husband take his part in the sin.


    2. Once Adam and Eve ate out of that tree, how come they didn't die as God said they would?

      Who said they did not die? Why did God Himself came in the flesh to save the human race then? Out of what bondage was He saving man? death, right?
      There was no death before the first sin. Death come because of the first man and life is given back to men through the second man ( Jesus).
      There was a tree of life in the garden of paradise. Adam and Eve was expelled quickly before they eat this tree b/c they would be living but cursed which is like the devil. The devil does not die but he is cursed. God wanted to replace the innocence and holiness back to Adam through His death and give him His Life.
      I know there might be more books which talk of the fall of men and their victory of death through their God out of real Love and Mercy on The Holy Cross.

        Saint Ephraim wrote this prayer of Praise for St. Mary

        [flash=200,200]http://Through Eve was the door of the Garden shut fast, and because of St. Mary the Virgin  it has been opened again.[/flash]


          May God bless us all !!!   
     
  • HezekielHezekiel
    [quote author=godislove260 link=topic=7080.msg94038#msg94038 date=1220044358]
    I was wondering whether it would have been possible for Adam and Eve to sin WITHOUT satan tempting them...

    Because Lucifer sinned without anyone tempting him, in fact, his own ego is what made him sin..

    So could it be that Adam and Eve would have sinned because of their ego, even if God had created them good???
    And generally, for us, is the fact that we've got the fallen nature the only reason why we are so vulnerable to Satan's wars on us???

    Thanks in advance

    Please pray for me
    God Bless


    Hi Dudet:-)

    I think,there are no known answers to questions like 'what would have happened,if...'But allow  me to let my imagination flow and see if I can make sense.  Traditions says,that Adam and Eve lived in the garden of eden for 7 years,before they were deported back to our current world.This idea would mean that for so long,they did not sin. They knew nothing.If I am not mistaken Ego is self-love and to acquire that trait one needs the knowledge of bad and good .Now, Satan makes his grand entry into the biblical account in Gensis 3. In the form of a serpent( to answer the question someone posed the other day why Satan chose the serpent ,it might be because the Bible says the Serpent was the craftiest of all animals),Satan finds Eve alone and begins to question God's restriction of their freedom.Sata urges Eve to eat from the forbidden fruit so hat her eyes will be opened and she will see the world as God sees it.At this stage, Ego and Pride begin to trickle.In other words, Satan is telling Eve : to think different. Think different from the way God created you. Be your own master and don't take orders from anyone else.He lectured Eve the basics of Pride,his speciality. Eve gave in to the temptation and the rest is history as they say.So I think,like Satan, our fall from grace was caused by the similar sin :- Ego and Pride.

    My 2 piasters.
  • HezekielHezekiel
    [quote author=Hezekiel link=topic=7080.msg94233#msg94233 date=1220900188]
    [quote author=godislove260 link=topic=7080.msg94038#msg94038 date=1220044358]
    I was wondering whether it would have been possible for Adam and Eve to sin WITHOUT satan tempting them...

    Because Lucifer sinned without anyone tempting him, in fact, his own ego is what made him sin..

    So could it be that Adam and Eve would have sinned because of their ego, even if God had created them good???
    And generally, for us, is the fact that we've got the fallen nature the only reason why we are so vulnerable to Satan's wars on us???

    Thanks in advance

    Please pray for me
    God Bless


    Hi Dudet:-)

    I think,there are no known answers to questions like 'what would have happened,if...'But allow  me to let my imagination flow and see if I can make sense.  Traditions says,that Adam and Eve lived in the garden of eden for 7 years,before they were deported back to our current world.This idea would mean that for so long,they did not sin. They knew nothing.If I am not mistaken Ego is self-love and to acquire that trait one needs the knowledge of good and bad .Now, Satan makes his grand entry into the biblical account in Gensis 3. In the form of a serpent( to answer the question someone posed the other day why Satan chose the serpent ,it might be because the Bible says the Serpent was the craftiest of all animals),Satan finds Eve alone and begins to question God's restriction of their freedom.Sata urges Eve to eat from the forbidden fruit so hat her eyes will be opened and she will see the world as God sees it.At this stage, Ego and Pride begin to trickle.In other words, Satan is telling Eve : to think different. Think different from the way God created you. Be your own master and don't take orders from anyone else.He lectured Eve the basics of Pride,his speciality. Eve gave in to the temptation and the rest is history as they say.So I think,like Satan, our fall from grace was caused by the similar sin :- Ego and Pride.

    My 2 piasters.
  • HezekielHezekiel
    [quote author=godislove260 link=topic=7080.msg94038#msg94038 date=1220044358]
    I was wondering whether it would have been possible for Adam and Eve to sin WITHOUT satan tempting them...

    Because Lucifer sinned without anyone tempting him, in fact, his own ego is what made him sin..

    So could it be that Adam and Eve would have sinned because of their ego, even if God had created them good???
    And generally, for us, is the fact that we've got the fallen nature the only reason why we are so vulnerable to Satan's wars on us???

    Thanks in advance

    Please pray for me
    God Bless


    Hi Dudet:-)

    I think,there are no known answers to questions like 'what would have happened,if...'But allow  me to let my imagination flow and see if I can make sense.  Traditions says,that Adam and Eve lived in the garden of eden for 7 years,before they were deported back to our current world.This idea would mean that for so long,they did not sin. They knew nothing.If I am not mistaken Ego is self-love and to acquire that trait one needs the knowledge of good and bad .Now, Satan makes his grand entry into the biblical account in Gensis 3. In the form of a serpent( to answer the question someone posed the other day why Satan chose the serpent ,it might be because the Bible says the Serpent was the craftiest of all animals),Satan finds Eve alone and begins to question God's restriction of their freedom.Sata urges Eve to eat from the forbidden fruit so hat her eyes will be opened and she will see the world as God sees it.At this stage, Ego and Pride begin to trickle.In other words, Satan is telling Eve : to think different. Think different from the way God created you. Be your own master and don't take orders from anyone else.He lectured Eve the basics of Pride,his speciality. Eve gave in to the temptation and the rest is history as they say.So I think,like Satan, our fall from grace was caused by the similar sin :- Ego and Pride.

    My 2 piasters.
  • HezekielHezekiel
    folks,
    I inadvertently sent multiple posts..How do I delete them now? I dont see the delete button..Any help?
  • HezekielHezekiel
    ****Ignore--sorry,am doing something wrong..
  • godislove260godislove260
    Thanks for your two piasters, Hezekiel

    but then where did Lucifer get his inspiration from when he fell from grace?
    I mean if Adam and Eve sinned because of ego (as in: why should I listen to God, I'll do what I want because I want to be like God..) 'inspired' by the serpent's words, then what god Lucifer to sin?

    I'm not just asking this for fun, it's fundamental to know if our sins today are..
    a) because we have a fallen nature
    b) because of our ego which sometimes listens to the devil (even before the fallen nature)
    c) sometimes commited without the devil's interference, just purely by us.. (I mean without the devil putting ideas into our minds, I know he can't force us to sin against our will)

    Thanks in advance
    God Bless
    Please pray for me
  • binC
    In The Name of The Father, The Son, The Holy Spirit, One True God, Amen!!!

    Hello Brothers,

    There is no link, I just tried to post a single sentence from the Praise of St. Mary in the last post. Sorry.

            Saint Ephraim wrote this prayer of Praise for St. Mary
    Through Eve was the door of the Garden shut fast, and because of St. Mary the Virgin  it has been opened again.

    GodisLove, such Qs should be asked to Holy ppl or a learned person from some kind of Theology school. Then only u would learn something solid. You know we r like in a KG of spiritual life and u r asking calculus. We need the + and - of Christianity first. As Saint Paul said u need milk now.
      For me knowing that the devil is an enemy of both God and we, Christians is enough. The Lord showed us the The Big Three weapons of the devil through which he would fight us...1) Food 2) Pride 3) Wealth and the combination of all these. And He showed us also how to defend ourselves 1) Food by Fasting 2) Pride by Humility 3) Wealth by giving Alms to the poor or by leaving this world for the love of God.
      May God be with us all to answer our Qs as He is the Wisdom that never err.

     
  • godislove260godislove260
    thx, binc for your answer, I shall try to ask a priest, but i was hoping someone had some writings by the fathers or something that would clarify this...

    God Bless
    Please pray for me
  • HezekielHezekiel
    [quote author=godislove260 link=topic=7080.msg94260#msg94260 date=1220951600]
    Thanks for your two piasters, Hezekiel

    but then where did Lucifer get his inspiration from when he fell from grace?
    I mean if Adam and Eve sinned because of ego (as in: why should I listen to God, I'll do what I want because I want to be like God..) 'inspired' by the serpent's words, then what god Lucifer to sin?



    Hi GiL,

    Unlike humans, Satan and the fallen angels knew God in all His glory.Again, unlike us humans they exactly knew what they were doing when they intentionally rebelled against God. They perfectly understood the scope of their punishment, so to speak. As a result, God does not give Satan and the other fallen angels the opportunity to repent, for they were already judged and casted out of heaven. In other words, God gave Satan the same choice He gave man ,to obey Him or not. The fact that Satan and his angels were punished would imply that they do have freedom of choice.If not, then we would think, that God encouraged any of the angels to sin.Thus, It would make no sense to claim that Satan is the  cause of our sins, but he uses the ego or pride of our flesh to tempt us to emulate him and therefore sin, but we have that free choice to make whether we want to follow him or God.We have the power in the Lord to resist his tricks.

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