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Monasticism

gregorytheSinnergregorytheSinner
edited December 1969 in Coptic Orthodox Church
Not too long ago a bishop was over our house, and the subject of monasticism came up.  The general conclusion was that "its current state, is much different from what it orignally was." 
Nowadays monk cells are being built having some of the following luxuries: tiled floors, 2 seperate rooms, a kitchen, and a bathroom, some even have airconditioning (i personally witnessed teh building of these cells with this general format). 

In my personal opinion, i find it totally against the whole point of monasticism.  These people are sworn into a sacred society taht live by poverty amongst other things.  Are these things really required? 

I would appreciate your opinions, because i know there are two sides to a story, and i'd love to see the other side. 

thanks and God bless.

Comments

  • minatasgeelminatasgeel
    [quote author=gregorytheSinner link=topic=7117.msg94409#msg94409 date=1221450515]
    Not too long ago a bishop was over our house, and the subject of monasticism came up.  The general conclusion was that "its current state, is much different from what it orignally was." 
    Nowadays monk cells are being built having some of the following luxuries: tiled floors, 2 seperate rooms, a kitchen, and a bathroom, some even have airconditioning (i personally witnessed teh building of these cells with this general format).   

    In my personal opinion, i find it totally against the whole point of monasticism.  These people are sworn into a sacred society taht live by poverty amongst other things.  Are these things really required? 

    I would appreciate your opinions, because i know there are two sides to a story, and i'd love to see the other side. 

    thanks and God bless.



    with all due respect to what was said, who are we to judge......

    they are people who died from the world....even though it was their choice (rightly is a call from God), others like the abotts of monasteries are the ones who have final call about this.....
  • coptic youthcoptic youth
    personally when i went to the monastery's in egypt and the one here in melbourne, i was shocked!! yes its very diffrent, i asked the abbot of the monastery here and he replied," these are necessities i.e. bed etc.. he said that before the monks used candles now we use light... he said the age has differed and so has the needs."

    Coptic Youth
  • abflab91abflab91
    Some of the technology used gives monks more time. this time could be used for prayer or other religious actions. things such as a kitchen in the cell means the monk doesnt have to walk all the way to the place where they eat. technology such as cars and cultivating machinery means that monks finish there duties quicker and then they have more time for God or for the people. using lights instead of candles means they dont have to change candles evryday and it probably is alot cheaper.

    hope that helped
    pray for me
  • socoolbishoysocoolbishoy
    with all my do respect to you... who are you to tell them how to live... when you become a monk, then live that life... otherwise don't speak much about it, for it is not your business! learn to live your life... and worry about your life... seek your salvation... and only yours!

    akhdna el barakah... neshkor allah!
  • aidanaidan
    Catholic monks seem to have a cushier life than most lay people. Perhaps destitution or even poverty isn't the point.

    In the Orthodox church you have the example of fools-for-Christ who are also monks.

    What aboutsowha?I read about them in a book about Coptic monasticism. Has anyone any information. They seem like extreme monks, or are they imaginary?
  • gregorytheSinnergregorytheSinner
    thank you all for your comments, it really did help me see a side i was completely overlooking.  i really didnt' take too much into consideration the fact that "some things like cars help them get jobs done quicker"  but at the same time i would still like to stress that the convo was about things like extra rooms, airconditioning, sometimes TV (granted it probably would feature the coptic channels).  The point was are thos ethings really that neccessary.

    Also i dont kno if some of you noticed but as i stated before, the conversation was headed by a Bishop who was among us.  So it wasnt as if it were normal men just sitting around and criticizing, it was a full in-depth discussion featuring someone who has been a monk for more than 20 years, that highlighted fact that some monastery's are becoming overly-modernized to the point that monks no longer seem to "die" from the world.

    As for Sowahs,they are also called, anachorites.  According to our church they have the ability to travel.  By this, i mean, they can literally be praying in their cell in Egypt for example, and within a matter of seconds be transported to Jeruslem to pray there.  Some famous ones are St. Paul the Hermit, St Hermina, and St. Thomas.
    Anachoritisim is usually achieved by very very very spirtual monks.
  • Nesto0129Nesto0129
    why is it people like your self always have something to complain about in this world and this lifetime.  First of all, with all do my respect to you, your response is just your view alone, your entitled to it, but no one has to respect it. Monks live there lives to serve GOD, the little luxuries they get is the farthest thing from anyones mind. These people have died from this world, to live a life for GOD and prayer for those less fortunate. Second, We all know that no one has forced them to live this life, its a choice that they made on their own, but giving up on all these luxuries that GOD has given every human being of having a normal life, to get married and start a family. So if these monastaries have been upgrading cells for these monks to live a life comfortably and no feel the life of poverty that a monk is supposed to feel is little compaired to the luxuries of living a life GOD has given everyone else in this world.
  • gregorytheSinnergregorytheSinner
    thanks again for your comment, but with all my respect to it, i yet again stress, that  i am not complaining.  have i gone out and said what they do is wrong, better yet have i said  that my weak self or anyone else was better than them.  i personally find it very rude to use a term like "people like yourself always have something to complain about."  i didn't start this thread for my health, i started it simply because i was listening in on a convo, and it intrigued me, to think what other people my age see when it comes to this story. 

    granted i have developed an opinion about this matter which differs from someone elses, that however doesnt make it wrong.  secondly, as i stated before, HG the bishop who was seated actually felt that this was true.  our fathers the early monks laid down these specific rules, such as living in poverty, living in celebacy, living outside of the world in deserts.  I mean yes we understand changing times require change, but to this degree?  I remember reading a thread here on tasbeha were some people were complaining about Abouna Matta el Meskeen, being too much of a reformist b/c he made his monks not wear the "consola,"  funny thing is his monastery according to most monks/bishops i meet is the one monastery that still has "old world monks" who still adhere to the customs and traditions passed down centuries ago.

    I fully understand your points, and i will say htis again, i truly and wholeheartedly respect these people for the sacrafices they make.  i personally don't think i could ever pull off half what these monks do.  so when i give my opinions, they are not meant to take away from them or from their struggles, they are merely opinions.

    God bless.
  • elsi70x7elsi70x7
    [quote author=gregorytheSinner link=topic=7117.msg94409#msg94409 date=1221450515]
    Not too long ago a bishop was over our house, and the subject of monasticism came up.  The general conclusion was that "its current state, is much different from what it orignally was." 
    Nowadays monk cells are being built having some of the following luxuries: tiled floors, 2 seperate rooms, a kitchen, and a bathroom, some even have airconditioning (i personally witnessed teh building of these cells with this general format).   

    In my personal opinion, i find it totally against the whole point of monasticism.  These people are sworn into a sacred society taht live by poverty amongst other things.  Are these things really required? 

    I would appreciate your opinions, because i know there are two sides to a story, and i'd love to see the other side. 

    thanks and God bless.


    Thanks for this post.
    In my opinion, those 'luxuries' r for the benefit us; the regular congregation. You stated that these 'luxuries' r found in some not all Monasteries. I think it would probably be in the Monasteries that regularly open their doors to us laymen for retreats etc. I think they are a kindness to us who cannot withstand the rigors of Monastic worship.
    God does not wish for us to carry burdens too heavy for us.
    Sorry I do not think I can explain my opinion fully, but I do still agree that we have to be ever wary of the Tempter and his many deviant ways he will use to keep us from God's Glory.
  • ArchdeaconArchdeacon
    I have a cousin who is a monk in Egypt.  And in agreement with some of the above said, it's really all predicated on the fact that the times have changed.  In the past, when someone really wanted to become a monk, they would really die from the world, as in they would go inside the desert in some mountain far, far away and would never, ever see their families or friends ever again.  But at the same time, the rest of the world kept going.  Monks back then didn't have a lot of responsibility other than just being monks.  Nowadays, though, there is a lot more contact with monasteries.  We in this day and age think it commonplace to go visit a monastery to take blessings but it was unheard of way back when it first started.  So modern day monasteries have to accommodate for all the visitors they constantly get and you could say that they might as well have begun to use some of the modern day technology to revamp some of the old buildings.  The second thing is that modern day monks have a lot more and a lot different responsibilities than they previously did.  My cousin, whom I mentioned earlier is a monk, is currently studying law in Egypt to become his monastery's lawyer.  Why do they need a lawyer?  Because nowadays when the monastery wants to build a new building, they have to get approval from the government and all that other stuff.  There's also the problem of the escalating violence between Christians and Muslims and it would be beneficial for the monastery to have someone who actually knows the law of the land to help in these issues.  In the olden days, the monastery was all the way out in the middle of nowhere, far away from the cities where everyone else lived, so they didn't care whether they wanted to build a building or not.  It's a different world now.  But the desert is vast and abundant.  For those who desire to live like the monks in the old days by going deep into the mountains or living in caves, they are more than welcome to do that.  Also don't forget that one of the main duties of the monk is to help the poor, which is an activity that requires a lot of human contact; again another reason why they would try to upgrade the monasteries.  The phrase "Death from the world" can be taken in many ways.  Some people take it to mean complete cutoff of all human contact, some people take it to mean having no desires of anything the world has to offer but not necessarily cutting off human contact.

    One last thing I would like to mention is that as some have already mentioned, this is not going on in all the monasteries.  For example, it is well known in Egypt that the Baramous Monastery is very strict and still adhering to the original ways of monasticism and not doing all these upgrades/modern technology revamps that we're seeing in other places
  • meanzmeanz
    Yes, monks have it different to what it was, HOWEVER,
    just because they have A/C doesn't mean they have to use it!
    i asked a brother in the monastery about these things and he told me, that even if these facilities are in the cells, and the monk doesn't use them, his reward would be greater because he could of made his life easier and comfortable but chose not to.
    I think he is spot on!
    And lets not forget that 50 or 100 years ago there was no heating electricity and A/C.
    Anywyas thats my 2 cents
    ppfm
    thanks.
  • abflab91abflab91
    Pope Shenouda in an indirect way condemned the way monks liive now. The movies that he wrote containing three stories called " Three Purposful Stories" had one story directed at the monks who had all these luxurious items in there cells. For those who havent seen it, it is about a monk who had everything in his cell like a bed, pens, a small kitchen and he even had a lock on his door. he was then taken in a vision and was put into the monasteries cemetry, and there step by step God taught him what real monasticism is-Dying to the World.

    If you havent watched it, i recommend you do its really beneficial and cool

    Hope that helped.
    Pray for mee
  • clayclay
    I think it is presumptuous of lay people to have expectations and demands of extra-scriptura roles of the Church that have traditionally had various guilds, and where hence their vocation is a matter strictly between God, the spiritual advisors and the Monk. All are meant to be unspotted by the world- and this aestheticism is meaningless without the grace of God and the love of God.
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