A lot of times in our church, we invite catholic and protestant priest/bishops/cardinals to attend special ceremonies such as: easter, ordaining bishops, etc. As I understand, we excommunicated these churches because of their heresies. I was reading a book by St. Cyril where he uses sharp language against Nestorious. If we excommunicated these people, doesn't that mean that they were not allowed so much as to enter our churches. Didn't St. Paul say "From such withdraw yourself" (1 Tim 6:3-5)?
So do you think we have become too friendly to catholics and protestants?
Or do you think St. Cyril would do the same?
By the way, I would like to commend the producer of this website for choosing to refer to other denominations as "heretical churches" rather than "other churches."
Comments
A lot of times in our church, we invite catholics and protestants to attend special ceremonies such as: easter, ordaining bishops, etc. As I understand, we excommunicated these churches because of their heresies. I was reading a book by St. Cyril where he uses sharp language against Nestorious. If we excommunicated these people, doesn't that mean that they were not allowed so much as to enter our churches. Didn't St. Paul say "From such withdraw yourself" (1 Tim 6:3-5)?
So do you think we have become too friendly to catholics and protestants?
Or do you think St. Cyril would do the same?
By the way, I would like to commend the producer of this website for choosing to refer to other denominations as "heretical churches" rather than "other churches."
Our Church is "Liberal?!" really......our Church is most conservative.
The relations between us and other Church are based on Jesus Christ, being the Son of God and Savior. If we choose to fully deny what they doing we are not following the Holy Bible and we would be selfish and the "heretical" ones.
God accepts the sins and actually goes after them to bring them back. If we, as the true Church of God (we can prove that if our brothers disagree), won't go after communion....then who will?
If a father have 5 children and the oldest is the one who leads the rest. If one of the young ones where to against the oldest, should the oldest fully deny him??!...No. he goes after him and helps him to be true again.
Now about the Church fathers' writings, that was a time where people were very extreme and over-zealous in all ways and in all Churches. Actually one concept i read in the book "Divine Justice" explained that there was a time in the Catholic church that any thought or a concept in the faith that is brought up by a bishop (or clergy man...etc) was immediately made a dogma....which is not right just taking one voice and just trusting it. That why we have around 100 bishops right now to lead our church to heaven.
And when we excomunicate sinners, we do not do it out of hatred. It is done out of love. It is the biblical command: "do not even greet him for he who greets him shares in his evil deeds."
You are right to say that the saints were very zealous. Shouldn't we imitate them?
What I mean is that…take St. Cyril for example. If he wasn't that strict and clear about doctrines, we wouldn’t have the true Orthodoxy we have right now. He had to be strict rather then very/extremely zealous. Being zealous bring with it many attitudes like not excepting anything else, not compromising. That is not good when you are bringing sinners to the faith.
Excommunication now is not taken lately. Tell me, have you meet someone recently who told “yeah, I am excommunicated from this church for doing this.” I don’t think so. That’s why our clergy men have/get a lot of patience from the Holy Spirit that is in them that makes them keep going after the sinner until he’s fully lost. The Lord says:
Ezekiel 3:18
When I say to the wicked, 'You shall surely die,' and you give him no warning, nor speak to warn the wicked from his wicked way, to save his life, that same wicked man shall die in his iniquity; but his blood I will require at your hand.
What will a person do or say to God on the Last Day when you lost a sinner easily??!!
Sharing someone’s evil deeds is when he is “fully into evil deeds.” You don’t find much people who are fully, purely evil as much…therefore you can’t leave all people because so.
Despite that, who said that the other churches are “evil”?!! They believe in Jesus Christ is the Son of God. How can that happened??!!. Misunderstandings and arguments with some works of the devils can’t be called “evil”…they are called imperfections that all we’ll have.
PK
A lot of times in our church, we invite catholic and protestant priest/bishops/cardinals to attend special ceremonies such as: easter, ordaining bishops, etc. As I understand, we excommunicated these churches because of their heresies. I was reading a book by St. Cyril where he uses sharp language against Nestorious. If we excommunicated these people, doesn't that mean that they were not allowed so much as to enter our churches. Didn't St. Paul say "From such withdraw yourself" (1 Tim 6:3-5)?
So do you think we have become too friendly to catholics and protestants?
Or do you think St. Cyril would do the same?
By the way, I would like to commend the producer of this website for choosing to refer to other denominations as "heretical churches" rather than "other churches."
Its quite interesting you should raise this subject. There are some Catholic communities (namely the MJCF or Pre-Vatican II) that will tell you (as an Orthodox Christian) that you are not only heretical, but you are most unwelcome to attend/participate in their mass.
Should we or should we not welcome them in ours?
Well, I think if we did welcome them , it wouldnt at all mean that we are not conservative. All these invitations and inter-denominational activities are done at the discretion of an Orthodox Bishop or Metropolitan, so I don't worry. But I do cringe when I see our youth following in their spirituality and abandoning Orthodox spirituality in lieu of theirs.
If a Bishop does allow them to attend our mass/sermons etc, I don't think they'd have allowed it had it meant that their own youth would be influenced to the point of abandoning their Orthodox faith and following a heretical faith.
But should there be invitations? Yes. I do believe so.
There's an old saying: "When you meet others, you get to know yourself better". And in this respect, I think its not a bad idea. We'll never really appreciate our depths of spirituality unless we have seen the shallowness of theirs. (lol). I'm laughing because it does sound quite conceited, but what can I tell you?
Furthermore, it helps re-enforce our own faith in that when we see Catholics for example, evangelising, and practicing chastity and living a chaste and holy life, its a good "push" for us also to continue down the same path.
[quote author=dumdum link=topic=7142.msg94645#msg94645 date=1222278026]
A lot of times in our church, we invite catholic and protestant priest/bishops/cardinals to attend special ceremonies such as: easter, ordaining bishops, etc. As I understand, we excommunicated these churches because of their heresies. I was reading a book by St. Cyril where he uses sharp language against Nestorious. If we excommunicated these people, doesn't that mean that they were not allowed so much as to enter our churches. Didn't St. Paul say "From such withdraw yourself" (1 Tim 6:3-5)?
So do you think we have become too friendly to catholics and protestants?
Or do you think St. Cyril would do the same?
By the way, I would like to commend the producer of this website for choosing to refer to other denominations as "heretical churches" rather than "other churches."
Its quite interesting you should raise this subject. There are some Catholic communities (namely the MJCF or Pre-Vatican II) that will tell you (as an Orthodox Christian) that you are not only heretical, but you are most unwelcome to attend/participate in their mass.
Should we or should we not welcome them in ours?
Well, I think if we did welcome them , it wouldnt at all mean that we are not conservative. All these invitations and inter-denominational activities are done at the discretion of an Orthodox Bishop or Metropolitan, so I don't worry. But I do cringe when I see our youth following in their spirituality and abandoning Orthodox spirituality in lieu of theirs.
If a Bishop does allow them to attend our mass/sermons etc, I don't think they'd have allowed it had it meant that their own youth would be influenced to the point of abandoning their Orthodox faith and following a heretical faith.
hmm this is kinda strange to me, at school i have to attend catholic masses, well because its a catholic school, and our school is also very multicultural, so there are allot of non Christians and even muslims, and its required for us all to go to their mass. But it's our decision to take the holy communion from them, in which case, (this one muslim guy) goes for holy communion asif he were a Catholic. And no one says a word ...
God Bless You All.
Christopher Boctor.
hmm this is kinda strange to me, at school i have to attend catholic masses, well because its a catholic school, and our school is also very multicultural, so there are allot of non Christians and even muslims, and its required for us all to go to their mass. But it's our decision to take the holy communion from them, in which case, (this one muslim guy) goes for holy communion asif he were a Catholic. And no one says a word ...
God Bless You All.
Christopher Boctor.
well...that's the Catholic church and we're the Coptic Orthodox. Also here it's a sin on both, the guy and the priest giving letting him partake of the holy Mysteries.
PK
But don't we view the Catholics as heretics? So in our point of view, Catholic communion is not really the real body and blood, right? So then why would we consider it a sin.
PK
well in their belief, according to the Bible, it is. Now about hte communion part, i wouldn't say this.....that just brings us farther from union. YES i know it is what's right, but let's not complicate things here.
[quote author=PopeKyrillos link=topic=7142.msg95606#msg95606 date=1224003482]
But don't we view the Catholics as heretics? So in our point of view, Catholic communion is not really the real body and blood, right? So then why would we consider it a sin.
PK
well in their belief, according to the Bible, it is. Now about hte communion part, i wouldn't say this.....that just brings us farther from union. YES i know it is what's right, but let's not complicate things here.
Ya, your probably right.
PK
[quote author=QT_PA_2T link=topic=7142.msg95149#msg95149 date=1223316343]
[quote author=dumdum link=topic=7142.msg94645#msg94645 date=1222278026]
A lot of times in our church, we invite catholic and protestant priest/bishops/cardinals to attend special ceremonies such as: easter, ordaining bishops, etc. As I understand, we excommunicated these churches because of their heresies. I was reading a book by St. Cyril where he uses sharp language against Nestorious. If we excommunicated these people, doesn't that mean that they were not allowed so much as to enter our churches. Didn't St. Paul say "From such withdraw yourself" (1 Tim 6:3-5)?
So do you think we have become too friendly to catholics and protestants?
Or do you think St. Cyril would do the same?
By the way, I would like to commend the producer of this website for choosing to refer to other denominations as "heretical churches" rather than "other churches."
Its quite interesting you should raise this subject. There are some Catholic communities (namely the MJCF or Pre-Vatican II) that will tell you (as an Orthodox Christian) that you are not only heretical, but you are most unwelcome to attend/participate in their mass.
Should we or should we not welcome them in ours?
Well, I think if we did welcome them , it wouldnt at all mean that we are not conservative. All these invitations and inter-denominational activities are done at the discretion of an Orthodox Bishop or Metropolitan, so I don't worry. But I do cringe when I see our youth following in their spirituality and abandoning Orthodox spirituality in lieu of theirs.
If a Bishop does allow them to attend our mass/sermons etc, I don't think they'd have allowed it had it meant that their own youth would be influenced to the point of abandoning their Orthodox faith and following a heretical faith.
hmm this is kinda strange to me, at school i have to attend catholic masses, well because its a catholic school, and our school is also very multicultural, so there are allot of non Christians and even muslims, and its required for us all to go to their mass. But it's our decision to take the holy communion from them, in which case, (this one muslim guy) goes for holy communion asif he were a Catholic. And no one says a word ...
God Bless You All.
Christopher Boctor.
If I were you, I'd tell the priest. Its a disgrace what he's doing.
If I were you, I'd tell the priest. Its a disgrace what he's doing.
it's not like it matter to us!!!!
ya3ny you left EVERYTHING in the Catholic church and you are commenting on THIS.....come on QT......ur smarter then that.....don't waste your time talking about this.
[quote author=QT_PA_2T link=topic=7142.msg95622#msg95622 date=1224009334]
If I were you, I'd tell the priest. Its a disgrace what he's doing.
it's not like it matter to us!!!!
ya3ny you left EVERYTHING in the Catholic church and you are commenting on THIS.....come on QT......ur smarter then that.....don't waste your time talking about this.
Mina,
This is a serious issue. As far as I am aware, (from what our Sunday School teacher said), the CoC believes that the RC Church do in fact partake of the Holy Mystery during the mass. We do believe it is the Holy Body on their alter. So, out of respect for this sacrament, I do think that such an issue should be taken seriously.
[quote author=minagir link=topic=7142.msg95623#msg95623 date=1224009441]
[quote author=QT_PA_2T link=topic=7142.msg95622#msg95622 date=1224009334]
If I were you, I'd tell the priest. Its a disgrace what he's doing.
it's not like it matter to us!!!!
ya3ny you left EVERYTHING in the Catholic church and you are commenting on THIS.....come on QT......ur smarter then that.....don't waste your time talking about this.
Mina,
This is a serious issue. As far as I am aware, (from what our Sunday School teacher said), the CoC believes that the RC Church do in fact partake of the Holy Mystery during the mass. We do believe it is the Holy Body on their alter. So, out of respect for this sacrament, I do think that such an issue should be taken seriously.
But for them, considering what we as Copts say (what you just told me), it wouldn't be considered a sacrament. It is such one if it is true. So take what seriously if we don't consider it to be a sacrament??!!
If I were you, I'd tell the priest. Its a disgrace what he's doing.
well its not just the muslim guy. Some Hindu's and Buddhists do it to.
[quote author=QT_PA_2T link=topic=7142.msg95627#msg95627 date=1224015140]
[quote author=minagir link=topic=7142.msg95623#msg95623 date=1224009441]
[quote author=QT_PA_2T link=topic=7142.msg95622#msg95622 date=1224009334]
If I were you, I'd tell the priest. Its a disgrace what he's doing.
it's not like it matter to us!!!!
ya3ny you left EVERYTHING in the Catholic church and you are commenting on THIS.....come on QT......ur smarter then that.....don't waste your time talking about this.
Mina,
This is a serious issue. As far as I am aware, (from what our Sunday School teacher said), the CoC believes that the RC Church do in fact partake of the Holy Mystery during the mass. We do believe it is the Holy Body on their alter. So, out of respect for this sacrament, I do think that such an issue should be taken seriously.
But for them, considering what we as Copts say (what you just told me), it wouldn't be considered a sacrament. It is such one if it is true. So take what seriously if we don't consider it to be a sacrament??!!
No Mina, we do consider it to be a Holy Sacrament. We do consider it also the Body of Christ. That's why this is a scandal. Its a scandal for the Catholics who consider it the body of Christ.
The Catholic Church in Paris called me to come to their Church to read the Bible in Church for the Ecumenical Unity Prayers they hold every so often. They invited an Orthodox (me) - how they got my details, I don't know, a Protestant , an Anglican and of course a Roman Catholic. Each of us read parts of the Bible and said a prayer for the unity of the Churches. The priest then asked me if I would like to distribute the Holy Body after the mass. This is in the a MAJOR PAROISSE in paris. I mean, the church has the highest congregation of young catholics in Paris. OK? I said to the priest "No no no no ... I"m orthodox.. and furthermore , I CANNOT distribite the Holy Body... you should do it".
That's what I said to the priest.
Then do you know what he did??
Guess!?? Guess what he did!!!
Go on.. guess...
He gave the Protestant woman the basket with the Body in it and asked her to give this out during communion.
I don't know if you realise this; but in the Roman Catholic Church, well .. in MOST parishes, they give the blood and the body (in France at least) and the priest says "This is the Holy Body of Christ". The person parkaking then says "AMen".
So the priest says this to EVERY person who is having Holy Communion.
How can this priest allow a protestant woman who does NOT believe that this IS the Holy Body of CHrist to go ahead and distribute it to believing Catholics??? HOW??
I WAS SOO FURIOUS.
In fact she nearly made it fall on the floor. She was so clumsy.
Now, I knew this priest actually, but I didn't respect him afterwards, and I regret not taking this up with a Bishop. If they wanted to pray for Ecumenical unity, this CERTAINLY DID NOT HELP!!!!!!
And the good thing is this: I DID COMPLAIN. Yep!
And when I did, I felt good about it, and the good thing is this : I felt good about it because when I complained, other priests and bishops and the entire congregation were also furious at what this priest did.
So, their fury, their anger at what he did gave me back some hope that perhaps ONE day there could be unity between us. There can never be unity if they do not have respect for their Eucharist. NEVER.
In fact, one reason that pushes us far from the RC is the fact that we believe that IT IS the Holy Body, and yet they keep it overnight. That's wrong. In the OT, it says that the sacrifice must be consumed, and NOTHING KEPT.. nothing left behind, or overnight.
This worries me about the RC.
See, complaining does a lot in such situations. It really does. I think treating the Holy Body of Christ with such disrespect is worse than sinning. really.
I mean, who is worthy to partake of the Holy Communion?? Who? Even as an Orthodox?? No one is truly "worthy" or merits it. But to go and treat this sacrament with such CARELESSNESS - ABSOLUTE carelessness, is beyond belief. Its something that we will be truly judged on.
Boctor -- This is a good story to tell your Catholic friend that's having sex with other women. Tell him this story and say that the Catholic Church tends to disrespect God's sacraments to make others feel at home. To make congregations feel welcome. I know a parish that has recently grown in size with respect to the number of young professionals that attend the mass. One girl I knew there told me that adultary was not a sin. I said to her "HOW?"
She then took me to a priest who confirmed that adultary is not a sin.
Tell your friend this story.ITS TOTALLY TRUE. This happened!!!!
Look, at the same time, you saying this, you are preaching ORTHODOXY. Tell him that if his CHurch is like this, it doesn't make it right. EVERY IDIOT KNOWS that adultary is wrong; even pagans. OK?? Even those that have no religion. THEY ALL KNOW ADULTARY is wrong. But this priest told me that "if we start saying such things are wrong, we are scared not to attract people to our church".
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And then I told this story to another priest from the Communauté de l'Emmanuel, and he said basically said the same thing as me (this is priest was crazy). The priest from the Emmanuel Commuity was SO FURIOUS when I told him this story. He said to me "the Jesuits are too liberal, and we do not agree with them".
So, tell your friend that the catholic church tends to change right from wrong and wrong from right to appease its congregation. It just wants to be seen as "cool" to the young generation, and thereby attracting them to the Church.
THe Orthodox Church, on the other hand, searches for your well being, and sees sin as an illness and tries to give you the remedy through repentance.
The RC is so big, and you have so many communities that do not agree with each other. There is one community where they even RE-BAPTISE you as catholic. HAHAHA. ANd they are Catholic!!!! And they are not in communion with other Catholics...
What a mess!!!!!!!! And they have the AUDACITY to pray for UNITY??? WHAT UNITY!!! Talk about stupid!!! They should 1st pray for unity amongst themselves.
I don't see ANY of the Orthodox Churches running their own communities.. OK. You have the monks in Mount Athos who seem to think that Our Lord Jesus Christ was Greek; but this can be forgiven. That's the ONLY case of "disunity" there is any ANY orthodox church i've seen.
Hello friends,
I liked the topic b/c it is a big issue for us all.
I totally agree with the tone of the writer of this thread (Dumdum)
By the way, I would like to commend the producer of this website for choosing to refer to other denominations as "heretical churches" rather than "other churches."
Should we lose who we are to bring others? infact we did not notice how many we make go from our hands thinking to welcome others. We are weakening to die hoping to strengthen others. God was right when He said...Would I find faith in the last days?
For do I now persuade men, or God? or do I seek to please men? for I yet pleased men, I should not be the servant of Christ. Galatians 1:10
,,Ask, and it will be given you. Seek, and you will find. Knock, and it will be opened for you. For everyone who asks receives.
He who seeks finds.
To him who knocks it will be opened.
Or who is there among you, who, if his son asks him for bread,
will give him a stone?!
Or if he asks for a fish,
who will give him a serpent?!
If you then,
being evil,
know how to give good gifts to your children,
how much more will your Father who is in heaven give good things to those who ask him!"
_______
But the problem is that Protestant Christians are not seeking the Bread of Father,
which is Holy Eucharist,
not seeking of the Father this Bread:
(Lord says):
This is My Body, this is My Blood- it is Holy Bread, Bread of Father.
now that being said I know my history I know that the catholics have been excommunicated I know that I am protestant which means that essentially I have been excommunicated by the catholics and so I am twice excommunicated what you are finding that protestant bishops/pastors/elders/deacons/laymen of all denominations you must understand that the protestants have undergone much splitting of hairs over trivial matters for many protestants they are searching searching for what It means to be Christ Centered they are looking for harmony they have tried so hard to pick apart the meaning of the text of the Holy Scriptures and they have found that all of there explanations fall short and much is showed in mystery. I would like to bring up a man by the name of Frank Shaffer his father was a prominent protestant but Frank became a Greek Orthodox why? Because he said that the orthodox church embraces mystery.
So when you ask the question should we throw these heretics out of our churches I just want u to first look at the person, ask the question why are you here? Why has God brought you into my path try to understand were they are coming from.
Also I think it interesting that you ask such a question in my church there are many people who were once or who still are Orthodox Christians they come to my church and then they come to u... why? Well thats a topic for another time but I think it interesting that u ask the question b/c if a man came to u and asked “what do u believe” would u not give him an answer? If he asked you what is worship like? Would u begrudge him a chance to worship? Would u not show him? Would u not teach him the meaning behind the worship? I think you will find that the man in the story is the protestant
let me tell u one more thing and this is the most important thing I think I have ever written here Protestants are looking for commonality! If you drive them out on reasons pertaining to the fact that they do not have the same littergy as u or the same songs as you then my friends you have driven them out for good! And they may never come back
NESS<><
"O strange Orthodox Church, so poor and weak, with neither the organization nor the culture of the West, staying afloat as if by a miracle in the face of so many trials, tribulations and struggles.
A Church of contrasts, both so traditional and so free, so archaic and so alive, so ritualist and so personally involved.
A Church where the priceless pearl of the Gospel is assiduously preserved, sometimes under a layer of dust.
A Church which in shadows and silence maintains above all the eternal values of purity, poverty, asceticism, humility, and forgiveness.
A Church which has often not known how to act, but which can sing of the joy of Pascha like no other."
----------------------------------------------- Fr. Lev Gillet
Our Church doesn't leave the protestant churches out of site but rather try to unite as much as possible, being the sole denomination in egypt and one of the leading churches among Orthodox churches. our church would go as far as possible to unite, but never, and NEVER out of the way of the Orthodox (true) faith.
A different liturgy or song in general means nothing except if there is a specific phrases in those songs that are against our Orthodox faith. Also with all do respect, there is manners of "singing" that we just don't accept in our church, and can't be accepted by many other churches. I am not talking about a specific Protestant church, but there are MANY that are just that way.
and one more personal opinion, what ever the Catholics did or anyone else did against those who became protestants, CANNOT be held as a true reason to astray from the true way of God. A great example, our Orthodox Church, and another great example is the time of persecution the Church (being one holy Church of God at time, but more towards the see of Alexandria , the Coptic Church), towards Her people and martyrs whose blood filled cities, defending the true faith. you are telling me with your true love for Jesus Christ, you couldn't die for Him as all of these martyrs did!!!
let my clarify something that i may have not made vary clear and that would be my fult i will die for Christ yes and for the core christian faith however i and many protestants do not die just for the sake of being affiliated with Methodist, Luthran and the like such things are trivial compared with the majesty of our King
NESS<><
let my clarify something that i may have not made vary clear and that would be my fult i will die for Christ yes and for the core christian faith however i and many protestants do not die just for the sake of being affiliated with Methodist, Luthran and the like such things are trivial compared with the majesty of our King
NESS<><
first....let me clarify that i am not attacking a specific group. my words were general towards protestants, and anyone can prove me wrong am am saying anything wrong....
I am not talking about affiliation.
The main reason for the reformation, the beginning or protestantism, started by Martin Luther and latter the full reformation by king Henry <something/maybe 8th>, was the persecution (not fully physically), from the Catholics controlling everything. PLEASE CORRECT ME IF I AM WRONG.
Now i am not saying it was right from the Catholics to do that....but I am saying it was wrong from the protestants to FULLY leave the Catholics, and instead of separating by one way or another, and bring back the TRUE FAITH which we, being Orthodox had and still kept, they just went and made up there own far from the Orthodox/true faith.....which right now is looked at, and proved to be worst then what the Catholics did.
TO summarize what is known and true about the 3 main churches:
You have the Catholics who add to the faith (to the Original Orthodox Creed),
You have the Protestants who took to much away from the faith, taking the Catholics as a reason,
And with all of that, you have the Orthodox, the true faith believers who KEPT the faith and defended it (the Orthodox Creed).
(Do any one disagree with what i've said.....i might of said something wrong for the fact that this is all from my poor memory.)
Now contrastingly in the Lutheran view scripture is scene as the final authority and is therefore subject to ones reason, tradition and personal experience.
as far as henry well lets just say he is crazey and formed the anglican church and that church tries to act as a bridge between the two worlds
also it is important to note that Luther ddi not want to leave the catholic church infact if you look at his sermons and his own confession of faith you will note that he still held to transubstantiation and many of the other tennents it was his followers/ John Calvin / Zwingly and others
i think much of the tention between the two worlds has to do with the differing cultures as well as who/ what is in authority Gods word or the church and its traditions
NESS<><
the morning star of the reformation was John Wycliffe and jon Hus latter came Luther it was Luther who said the church is always in a state of reform what he wished to do was to refocus on the Scripture u will remember the most famous quote sola scriptora or scripture alone and so when you look at the protestant faith you are looking at a non traditional faith this is what bugs so many of the you b/c i think and correct me if i may be wrong but so many Orthodox view Scripture and Tradition as both being authorities
Now contrastingly in the Lutheran view scripture is scene as the final authority and is therefore subject to ones reason, tradition and personal experience.
If you only believed in Scripture than you’d never break those words. And he we are living in the world seeing all protestants only talking what they choose to be right from the Holy Scripture. I am mistaken?!!
Also what about the Apostles Christ choose to bring people to Him and gave them the power to loosen of bound sins. Aren’t they also of authority that was given tot hem BY GOD??!!
What about the argument of salvation through faith only. Also the sacraments, baptism…..etc. many things that we Orthodox keep you just easily DENY!!!
Our Orthodox Church bases Her beliefs on:
- The Holy Bible (With the Deuterocanonical Books)
- The writing of the Apostles (the Deskoleia and Didace (some can post their English names please)
- The writings of the Fathers (post the separation and the Orthodox ones after)
- The Tradition. Nooooo, according to history he did that to CONTROL the church because he married more then once and the Pope choose not to give him the annulment to get married again….so he “broke the Law of the Holy Scripture” and took over the church because of so.
Well not fully, but he also broke the Law of the Scripture by “teaching that salvation or redemption is a gift of God's grace, attainable only through faith in Jesus as the messiah,” which is the base of almost ALL protestant belief, WHICH IS WRONG and shown clearly in the Holy BIBLE.
Also yes he didn’t want to leave the church but he was Luther was “excommunicated by Leo X on January 3, 1521.” No one who thinks he’s right would care. He went and stood with his wrong doctrine. I FULLY disagree. Look at the Orthodox Church, do you see us ALL Coptic, ALL Greek, ALL Armenian…NO, each church would have her own culture being a country but still belief in the same basic Creed of true Christianity. Among Oriental Orthodox church only, there are 6 main churches and within them there are MANY cultures. We, being copts, only one of the Orthodox churches, have churches in every continent on this earth. You’re telling me that the whole world turned into one culture and ALL the protestants are all from one cultural. Atleast look at the fact that there are TONS of protestants denominations. If they are from the same cultural, they would ALL unite. But in fact, the only belief that they have in common is what the “Father of Protestantism” created, “teaching that salvation or redemption is a gift of God's grace, attainable only through faith in Jesus as the messiah.” Now let’s speak about this right here. Despite what I’ve said above about “God’s word”
The Church is PART of GOD. You have BOOKS of the Old Testament describing the relationship of the Church, the Bride, with God, Jesus Christ, the Bridegroom. You are now telling me that they are separate?!!!
The traditions are the Church’s. Cannot get rid of them. How are we supposed to stay on the right way to God without knowing what was done right from other who God has witnessed to, being saved in Paradise.
God strengthened His Church and said:
Matthew 16:18
"And I also say to you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build My church, and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it. "
He anoints those who are to lead His people to Him. Those people are given the authority from GOD Himself and will be judged on. You are telling me to just ignore all of what they all did??!!!
I find this hard to do!
Sorry to be speaking that way, but this is a serious issue that needs to be clarified especially on an Orthodox forum.
when i reffered to henry i agree with you! unfortunately i was not clear the Anglican church now in this present day is acting as a bridge
as far as the two cutlers are concern what i was referring to was mainly the idea that words and the systematizing of those words vrs the more mystical and traditional i liken the analogy to Plato and Aristotle two titans of greek philosophy i was not referring so much as to African vrs chines vrs American but more broadly speaking in terms of philosophical ideals
but i think we may have diverged from the topic and for that i suppose i should apologies for the sid track. however i would like to say that all have sinned and fallen short of the Glory of God therefore any attempt to interpret scripture is there by going to be different this is why you find many protestants at your churches they are looking for things that bind and not things that divide
NESS<><